December 18, 2017, 09:33:04 AM

Author Topic: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams  (Read 3568 times)

ahsanford

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Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« on: December 01, 2017, 12:39:21 PM »

Now that this blasted forum I love has told me what mirror box bokeh clipping is, I can't *not* see it in portraits.

https://petapixel.com/2017/12/01/shooting-portraits-christmas-lights-ordinary-bedroom/

IT'S EVERYWHERE!  (85 f/1.2L II I believe for these shots)

- A

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Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« on: December 01, 2017, 12:39:21 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2017, 12:46:44 PM »
So if you have a large aperture prime, a few questions come to mind:

1) Which Canon lenses demonstrate this phenomenon?  Does the 135L as well?  Does the Sigma Art 85 or 135 do this?  Otus glass, perhaps?

2) How does one get round/soft/large bokeh balls from a large aperture lens?  Just stop it down and forego the size/softness of the large aperture to eliminate the clipping?  (Wouldn't that defeat the point of buying the fast lens?)

- A

slclick

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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2017, 01:02:14 PM »
So if you have a large aperture prime, a few questions come to mind:

1) Which Canon lenses demonstrate this phenomenon?  Does the 135L as well?  Does the Sigma Art 85 or 135 do this?  Otus glass, perhaps?

2) How does one get round/soft/large bokeh balls from a large aperture lens?  Just stop it down and forego the size/softness of the large aperture to eliminate the clipping?  (Wouldn't that defeat the point of buying the fast lens?)

- A

The 135L does not get clipped

ahsanford

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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2017, 01:06:50 PM »
The 135L does not get clipped

Phew.  Some bokeh made it out alive.

- A

ahsanford

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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2017, 01:30:16 PM »

85mm f/1.2 bokeh shots: http://www.shutterdial.com/#/search?s=bokeh&f=85&a=2
Mostly Canon shots, clipped, and one D800E shot with round bokeh on what is listed as an 80mm f/1.2 lens that I did not know existed.

85mm f/1.4 bokeh shots: http://www.shutterdial.com/#/search?s=bokeh&f=85&a=3
A fair amount of Nikon shots (on their 85 f/1.4) show round bokeh

135mm f/2 bokeh shots: http://www.shutterdial.com/#/search?s=bokeh&f=135&a=5
Some cat's eye but I'm not seeing any clipping.

- A

ethanz

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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2017, 01:36:11 PM »
On those links you just sent, the 135 certainly has the cats eye but I don't see clipping.

What is wrong with the clipping, in your opinion?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 01:41:14 PM by ethanz »
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ahsanford

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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2017, 02:25:36 PM »
On those links you just sent, the 135 certainly has the cats eye but I don't see clipping.

What is wrong with the clipping, in your opinion?

Didn't even care about it until this bloody forum pointed it out to me, and now it's everywhere I look.

I don't know why I'm up in arms about this, if I'm honest.  I just am.  Maybe it's because I just rented an 85 f/1.4L IS.   ::)

I appreciate the 85 on FF is (around) the shortest FL you don't get facial distortion from close shooting distances -- so it's gold for indoor portraiture -- but isn't this bokeh clipping thing kind of a big deal for a lens that is renowned for generating bokeh?  Shouldn't folks get 135 f/2 lenses instead?

In fairness, it seems to be a more glaringly noticeable phenomena for high contrast bokeh (i.e. background lights on a dark frame).  It's far less noticeable as say greenery / trees / grass behind a subject.

- A
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:27:39 PM by ahsanford »

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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2017, 02:25:36 PM »

Ryananthony

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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2017, 02:28:37 PM »
It has turned me off of a lens I was almost sure I would pick up. That's why I'm awaiting more sample images to see where and how define it is in a number of shots.

jd7

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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2017, 09:37:00 PM »
Just had a quick look in the Flickr group for the older Sigma 85 1.4 EX and there is some bokeh clipping but a perhaps a bit less than in the 85 1.2L shots??

These are the best examples (or should I say worst!) I found
https://www.flickr.com/photos/azproduction/33492603656/in/pool-1464365@N22/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jf_paillie/34907120681/in/pool-1464365@N22/

Didn't find much for the Sigma 85 Art on a Canon body but ...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/63115188@N03/23712057114/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/universal_creations/38189323536/

« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 12:27:18 AM by jd7 »
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PCM-madison

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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2017, 09:48:56 PM »
135L at F2.0

CanonFanBoy

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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2017, 02:20:04 AM »

Now that this blasted forum I love has told me what mirror box bokeh clipping is, I can't *not* see it in portraits.

https://petapixel.com/2017/12/01/shooting-portraits-christmas-lights-ordinary-bedroom/

IT'S EVERYWHERE!  (85 f/1.2L II I believe for these shots)

- A

It is cooling my desire for sure. I guess there is no way around it. Looks like the 1.2 and the 1.4 have the clipping. I don't think any of mine do that, but now I have to check. The only consolation for me is that few portraits I take have the bokeh balls to begin with. Still, it looks like hell.
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aceflibble

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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2017, 04:28:47 AM »
1) Which Canon lenses demonstrate this phenomenon?  Does the 135L as well?  Does the Sigma Art 85 or 135 do this?  Otus glass, perhaps?
Quote
Off the top of my head (this is not a definitive list), the only Canon first-party lenses which do it are the 85mm f/1.2 and f/1.4, 200mm f/1.8, and the FD 50mm f/1.0. The 400mm f/2.8 does technically do it, too, but you'll never see it with that lens because of how strongly everything it flattened out. Rumour was back in the day a 135mm f/1.4 was prototyped and never moved forward specifically because the image circle was so cut up and shaped by the lens mount. (Remember, usually these things are caused by the lens mount, not the mirror box, so calling it "mirror box clipping" is, in most cases, inaccurate.)

I've never seen or been aware of any Sigma, Zeiss, Tamron, or Tokina lens doing it, though given how many third-party lenses there are out there, I wouldn't just assume that every third-party lens is in the clear.

Nearly all anamorphic lenses will do it.

Quote
2) How does one get round/soft/large bokeh balls from a large aperture lens?  Just stop it down and forego the size/softness of the large aperture to eliminate the clipping?  (Wouldn't that defeat the point of buying the fast lens?)
Same way you always do:
- Stop the lens down, reducing the image circle to within the limits of the mount (or other obstructions), and trust the aperture blades are numerous and rounded enough to stay looking circular. Two stops is usually enough.
- Spend a lot of money and reduce light transmission greatly by installing an apodization filter on the rear element of the lens. (Look up the Fujifilm 56mm f/1.2 APD and Sony 100mm f/2.8 STF.)
- Frame your shots wider than you otherwise would so highlights stay closer to the middle of the image circle, and crop off the edges.
- Reduce contrast enough that there is no shape at all to anything out of focus.
- Use diffusion/bleed/mist filters so every highlight spreads out and hope it covers it.
- Use old (pre-1982, as a general rule) lenses which usually have lower contrast and soft diffusion as inherent characteristics, covering problems like this.
- Photoshop it.

Or, finally,
- Ignore it and stop thinking about it, because nobody who looks at your images will care. The person taking  a photo—you—is the only person who cares about 'bokeh'. Your subjects don't care: if they're a person they're only looking at themselves; if they're not a person, they're not looking at all. The people looking at your images don't care; they're looking at whatever is in focus. The vast majority of large-production movies ever made use anamorphic lenses which always clip the lens mount, and nobody is missing out on winning an Oscar because some inane, blurry blobs in the background of a shot had their top edges clipped off. (This is also why 'catseye' background shaping doesn't matter, no matter how many SLR lens reviews waste time on it; anamorphic lenses shape all out of focus highlights in that way, and you can guarantee that nearly all of your favourite films were shot with anamorphic lenses.)

 
If it really bothers you, and you really want to get a completely circular look with a lens fully open, pick up a Sony or Fuji camera, as they're the only brands producing apodization lenses for public purchase. Otherwise, don't worry about it. Bokeh—let alone bokeh shape—is one of the last things any viewer looks at or spends a single second considering. The 85mm f/1.2 has had clipped highlights for decades now across both versions, and it's not very sharp, has horrific aberration, some unflattering barrel distortion and terrible focus (both auto and manual), yet it's still 'the' Canon portrait prime lens because none of that stuff, even all added together, matters anywhere near as much as the overall rendering.

(And I say this as someone who does have and use the two aforementioned Fuji and Sony lenses. The amount of times they've actually been useful and the effect has actually matter can be counted on one hand.)

neuroanatomist

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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2017, 07:28:33 AM »
(Remember, usually these things are caused by the lens mount, not the mirror box, so calling it "mirror box clipping" is, in most cases, inaccurate.)

Are you saying that the lens mount —which is round— is somehow causing a straight-edged clip of the bokeh highlights?  How does that work, geometrically?  Also, note that the rear element of the 85/1.2L is actually flush with / sits inside the lens mount, so again, how is the lens mount causing the clipping?


Or, finally,
- Ignore it and stop thinking about it, because nobody who looks at your images will care.

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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2017, 07:28:33 AM »

BeenThere

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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2017, 08:33:14 AM »
Could the mirror box be designed to eliminate this phenomenon?  Rounded or tapered

Don Haines

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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2017, 09:15:44 AM »
Personally, I have far better things to dream about :)
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Re: Mirror box bokeh clipping haunts my dreams
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2017, 09:15:44 AM »