December 14, 2017, 12:40:55 PM

Author Topic: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision  (Read 5151 times)


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Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« on: December 07, 2017, 03:56:13 PM »

aceflibble

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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2017, 04:30:19 PM »
The contrast differences he brings up a couple of times in the first half are neither lens nor sensor-specific, but processor-specific. I do wish people would learn that it's the sensor and processor together which make the image, not just the sensor. It's especially aggravating when it's someone who generally knows what they're talking about and is positioned as an informer and educator. (See also his mispronunciation of 'ISO' as if it's an acronym.)
To some people it may seem like a minor distinction, but given how frequently these companies re-use processors with different sensors (or vice-versa) in various cameras, it really is very helpful to bear in mind that it's the sensor and processor within each camera at work, not just the sensor. Knowing which elements can be attributed to just the sensor (initial capture colour accuracy), the processor (noise, color profiling, and interpretation of contrast), or both (everything else) is very helpful when then looking at future cameras which may re-use the same part(s).

That said, it's interesting to see someone come to such a mixed conclusion (by the second half of his video), compared to the usual all-or-nothing comparisons you get online. The Canon seemingly being better when you nail exposure, but the Nikon being better for deeper editing and post-processing, is in line with my own experience with the two brands over the last couple of years (as well as Sony, who of course make Nikon's sensors). Typically online you see people only vouching for one or the other.

Also interesting to see the Tamron lens at 120mm on the Nikon shots and 114mm on the Canon in the first couple of examples. While that wouldn't account for contrast, noise, colour accuracy, or anything else like that, and has no bearing on the later examples looking at recoverable range, it would account for the apparent bump in sharpness that the Canon has in most of the early comparisons and it could also account for the slightly more accurate metering. (That's a longer shot; Tamron's light transmission across their zoom range is usually very accurate.)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 04:32:22 PM by aceflibble »

DaviSto

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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2017, 05:04:46 PM »

That said, it's interesting to see someone come to such a mixed conclusion (by the second half of his video), compared to the usual all-or-nothing comparisons you get online. The Canon seemingly being better when you nail exposure, but the Nikon being better for deeper editing and post-processing, is in line with my own experience with the two brands over the last couple of years (as well as Sony, who of course make Nikon's sensors). Typically online you see people only vouching for one or the other.
If 'nailing exposure' means being no more than two or three stops out, I'm going to agree with you.  A fairer conclusion might be that, when it comes to pushing images, the Nikon sensor has a small advantage over the Canon if either your technical limitations or, more positively, your style of shooting require you to push your out-of-camera images by over three stops.

Geek

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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2017, 05:06:29 PM »
Hey aceflibble, I don't think I understand the impact that the processor has on the image beyond how quickly the image can be stored and manipulated once acquired from the A/D converter that processes the analog data from the sensor?  Please elaborate.
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Larsskv

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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2017, 05:11:22 PM »
I found the review very intersting and balanced as well. Dustin does a great job!

 Honestly, my expectation was that the Nikon would have more of an advantage at low ISO, but the difference seemed insignificant to my eyes.

I believe the difference in sharpness must be caused by a weaker lens on the Nikon, but it would be interesting to see a sharpness comparison of the two cameras and the Tamron 15-30 lenses.

One small thing could be improved though. Many of the pictures that were compared had slightly different exposures (shutter speed), which hurts the comparison of ISOs, and also the ISO invariance tests. My experience is that more exposure benefits the end result with regards to (less) noise, when using the same ISO (as long as there is no clipping). Therefore, I would expect the pictures with the longer shutter speeds to perform better with regards to shadow lifting. Said in different words, the comparisons weren’t 100% apples to apples. That said, this doesn’t impact on the overall impression, that both cameras perform very good in real world use.


mistaspeedy

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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2017, 05:14:08 PM »
I also don't think the processor makes any difference at all to the RAW images at all. The processor and jpg processing algorithms do make a difference to the quality of JPG images, but those are not what is being compared in the video. (RAW images are being tested in the video)
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Mr Majestyk

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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2017, 05:19:33 PM »
You can do deep pushing with the 5D4. It's easy to rescue very high contrast images and still have nice clean shadows. Yes the Nikon can go an an extra stop or stop and a half, but how often do you need to go over 4EV, without leaving a unnatural result. Nikon is great if you completely screw up exposure, but it only has a 0.8EV photo dynamic range advantage at base ISO and from ISO 160 on they are almost identical with the Canon slightly better  above ISO 3200. The sensor differences are now not the main issue for Canon, although it would be great to see BSI and stacked sensors and further improvements, it's more about the feature gimping. 5D4 is a nice camera but could have easily been a lot better. 5DsII could be a D850 killer if they wanted but that would make it a 1DXII killer and they just can't have that. Nikon couldn't care less about putting pro features from D5 into lesser cameras. D500 is so close to the D5 in AF performance it's not funny. You can own a D500 + D850 for less than D5.

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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2017, 05:19:33 PM »

Mikehit

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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2017, 05:31:41 PM »
...it's more about the feature gimping. 5D4 is a nice camera but could have easily been a lot better.

What 'feature gimping' are you referring to?

Mikehit

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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2017, 05:37:28 PM »
The contrast differences he brings up a couple of times in the first half are neither lens nor sensor-specific, but processor-specific. I do wish people would learn that it's the sensor and processor together which make the image, not just the sensor. It's especially aggravating when it's someone who generally knows what they're talking about and is positioned as an informer and educator. (See also his mispronunciation of 'ISO' as if it's an acronym.)

You are splitting hairs - it is whether the D850 as a camera is better than the 5DIV as a camera. People use 'sensor' as a shorthand because it is the easiest thing to talk about even though the sensor provides the raw material. Yes, a manufacturer could screw up a great sensor with a poor processor but what is really important is whether you can get good photos from it.

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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2017, 06:16:13 PM »
I found the review very intersting and balanced as well. Dustin does a great job!

+1

Well done, Dustin.

Isaacheus

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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2017, 04:46:49 AM »
...it's more about the feature gimping. 5D4 is a nice camera but could have easily been a lot better.

What 'feature gimping' are you referring to?

Not the original poster, but I'd assume things like the crop on 4k, limited (read storage intensive) 4k codec, fixed screen rather than tilting/articulating, fps seemed to be minimal increase from the 5dmk3 etc. At least, those are the ones that put me off it.

Other extras like introducing usb charging, a uhs-2 card slot, an ibis system etc would have made it an easy purchase. Not saying it's a bad camera by any means though, just held back

9VIII

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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2017, 06:56:46 AM »
Hey aceflibble, I don't think I understand the impact that the processor has on the image beyond how quickly the image can be stored and manipulated once acquired from the A/D converter that processes the analog data from the sensor?  Please elaborate.

For starters, every camera does baked in noise reduction. For the last five years companies have been pointing to the processor whenever they get new improvements in high ISO.
“Maybe” base ISO isn’t given any processing but it’s unlikely.
I’d bet there are some color adjustments going on as well.

Mikehit

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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2017, 08:48:27 AM »
Hey aceflibble, I don't think I understand the impact that the processor has on the image beyond how quickly the image can be stored and manipulated once acquired from the A/D converter that processes the analog data from the sensor?  Please elaborate.

For starters, every camera does baked in noise reduction. For the last five years companies have been pointing to the processor whenever they get new improvements in high ISO.
“Maybe” base ISO isn’t given any processing but it’s unlikely.
I’d bet there are some color adjustments going on as well.

I agree.
When the signal is converted from digital to analogue I would be amazed if they (r any manufacturer) avoid the temptation to firtle with the S/N and get a 'cleaner' image. You only need to look at Sony's 'star-eater' update to see what can be done in the conversion. Raw is not raw - it is 1's and 0's with conversion applied.

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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2017, 08:48:27 AM »

snoke

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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2017, 09:22:04 AM »
One small thing could be improved though. Many of the pictures that were compared had slightly different exposures (shutter speed), which hurts the comparison of ISOs, and also the ISO invariance tests. My experience is that more exposure benefits the end result with regards to (less) noise, when using the same ISO (as long as there is no clipping).

All ISO not equal. Canon 5DIV ISO 100 is fake ISO number. DxO measure it.https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D850-versus-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV___1177_1106

neuroanatomist

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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2017, 09:24:34 AM »
One small thing could be improved though. Many of the pictures that were compared had slightly different exposures (shutter speed), which hurts the comparison of ISOs, and also the ISO invariance tests. My experience is that more exposure benefits the end result with regards to (less) noise, when using the same ISO (as long as there is no clipping).

All ISO not equal. Canon 5DIV ISO 100 is fake ISO number. DxO measure it.https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D850-versus-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV___1177_1106

As you can also notice from your link, the D850 ISO 100 is also 'fake'.  What is your point?
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Re: Dustin Abbott Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D mark IV sensor comparision
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2017, 09:24:34 AM »