January 16, 2018, 04:43:49 AM

Author Topic: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD  (Read 7955 times)

unfocused

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2017, 04:48:06 PM »
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm actually thinking there might be some cases where I could use these.

Explanation: The shoulder bag I use (a discontinued Nova Sport 35L from Lowepro) works very well to carry two bodies and three lenses -- 24-105; 16-35 and 70-200. But sometimes I want to throw in a specialty lens -- the 8-15 fisheye for example. That means one lens either has to go in one of the webbed pockets on the outside, where it gets banged into doors, against fences, dugouts, seating, etc., or it has to share space with one of the other lenses, were they both can get banged around.

I can totally see myself putting one of these over the lens to provide a little extra protection. In those cases, I'm also unlikely to need to switch lenses super fast, so the extra time and handling wouldn't be a problem. Heck, I could even see myself setting a lens down in the grass beside my bag while I'm shooting. 

Other times I may be walking around a track meet, cross country meet, golf meet, etc., with a backpack where I'll throw in an extra lens or body. Again, I could see myself slipping one of these babies over a lens so I can just toss it in the backpack without taking much care or worrying about it bouncing around a bit.

I realize that most people don't mistreat their equipment quite to the extent that I do. But, I am saying that maybe, just maybe, for some of us these might be worth considering.

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2017, 04:48:06 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2017, 05:17:41 PM »
I realize that most people don't mistreat their equipment quite to the extent that I do. But, I am saying that maybe, just maybe, for some of us these might be worth considering.

My similar application would be throwing my [5D3 + lens attached] plus perhaps a spare small prime floating loose in a satchel -- happens all the time with my work laptop bag, which only has a laptop sleeve and a big open chamber.  I have Tenba photo inserts for it, but that completely commandeers the open compartment and sometimes I don't want to do that.

So I actually deconstruct the Tenba approach and use a beer coozy (it's money on the 50 f/1.4, 35 f/2 IS, 28 2.8 IS, etc.) for the spare lens rather than put an entire Tenba photo insert in the bag.  The camera + lens combo would get stuffed in a winter hat.  But that's like a lens protection alternative and not a lens cap / end cap alternative.  I still would use hard standard caps for everything in this scenario.

- A

JPAZ

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2017, 05:21:59 PM »
Been reading all the comments and the developer's responses and thinking.  I have to say that a front and rear traditional cap with a label on the front cap works well for me.  But, there are times when I bring along an extra lens or use a smaller bag where two lenses are in the same "compartment."  Presently, I use a piece of foam or an extra divider (bet we all have them left over from re-arranging bags) or wrap a lens in a lens sack or use a beer cozy to create a layer between these lenses. 

Another scenario is to use this (if it is more protective) instead of a beer cozy and an old sock that I might use for a 70-200 in a briefcase or small bag.

I can see using this product instead of a divider that I might need to "unvelcro" to get to the lens below.  I don't think this device is the every lens / every day answer for me but can see a place in my kit.
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brad-man

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2017, 05:24:17 PM »
Other times I may be walking around a track meet, cross country meet, golf meet, etc., with a backpack where I'll throw in an extra lens or body. Again, I could see myself slipping one of these babies over a lens so I can just toss it in the backpack without taking much care or worrying about it bouncing around a bit.

I have some of these for just such occasions:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4PCs-Waterproof-DSLR-SLR-Camera-Lens-Bag-Pouch-Case-Cover-For-Canon-Nikon-Sony/291882488488?hash=item43f58d52a8:g:Vv0AAOSwe7BWxoef

slclick

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2017, 05:36:27 PM »
Constructive dialog, a rare bird on the interwebs. Great thread.
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ahsanford

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2017, 05:45:07 PM »
I just hope the Breakthrough filters guy is taking notice.*

There's a way to respond to feedback fairly/honestly, harness our collective experience/perspective to improve your product (crowdsourcing the rev 2.0 if you will)...  Or you can just make a boatload of claims, imply we're using similar products incorrectly without substantiation and just say 'trust me' a lot.

- A

*[Ron Howard Arrested Development voice] "He was not taking notice."

snoke

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2017, 06:33:32 AM »
Thanks for coming on and replying to so many posts.  It's pretty awesome to see a product designer answer
Will likely reposition / alter your variable ND or CPL ring orientation each time you use it. NEVER in my life have I ever heard of a photographer who literally pulls out their camera and just takes a shot…. Photographers are ALWAYS adjusting knobs, camera settings, lenses etc. because of light, subject proximity, motion, etc.

The difference, though, is on a Variable ND or CPL, you set it to taste for the purpose, and may run around a whole bunch (like, while hiking) and you may not need to fuss with the filter again for a while (if you're taking similar types of shots).

KURVD right, Talys wrong.

Masks the true size/shape of the lens in your bag, making lenses harder to identify. haha, okay this was kind of a funny one. I don’t know about you, but I know of only three people that have more than 5 lenses…

Without trying to sound confrontational, I think there are a lot of people participating on this forum who have a whole lot more than 5 lenses :)  I know I do, and some of them that I may carry around at the same time do have similar dimensions.   Maybe a solution is to offer colored, patterned, or otherwise marked ones in the future.

Smart Talys. Optional extra: color stripe on rubber. Good.

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2017, 06:33:32 AM »

snoke

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #67 on: December 14, 2017, 06:39:10 AM »
Hey, thanks for responding with your first sentence! Much appreciated! To respond to your second sentence, we intentionally stated that the ULCs are Shock-Absorbent and never state that it is drop-proof or shock-proof. You're totally right with a heavier and more expensive lens because we tried it! We purposefully conducted drop tests at a height from the hip, dropping one lens 43 times onto concrete (twice the size of a lens shown in the GIF), and another two lenses 27 times and 18 times onto asphalt before noticing internal damage...

Damage never happen only last time. Each drop weaken lens. When you do focal calibration check? When you do autofocus test?

Drop test dumb idea. People do it themselves. Damage lens. Maybe minuscule damage cannot see. Damage still exist.

Drop test dumb marketing.

KUVRD

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2017, 10:02:30 AM »
Anyways, with that said, to respond to your CONS:

Thanks for responding in detail.  Unfortunately, it seems to me that a few of your responses ignore common real-world use cases.  For example...


Quote
Two hands required to put it on. You’re right. It does take two hands to put the ULC on… about a 5 second delay from putting on a Traditional Lens Cap… the reason we don’t see this as a CON is because whenever someone is putting on a lens cap on a lens is either at the end of the photoshoot, when you’re packing everything up, you’re switching lenses or you’re just quickly taking one or two photos and then putting the ULC back on.

When switching lenses in an active shoot, the difference between less than a second to slap a traditional lens cap on vs. the extra 5 seconds apply a ULC can matter...a lot.  Especially since it requires two hands to put on the ULC, meaning I’d have to set the camera down.  Normally, I can ‘fully’ swap lenses in 3-4 seconds (one mounted lens and a second lens with both caps on and hood reversed to the second lens mounted with hood in place and prior lens with both caps on and hood reversed), and the camera never leaves my hand.  The ULC would least triple that time.

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Peeling it off exposes the inside / glass-facing side of it, and that material will surely collect more lint/dust than a hard plastic cap surface. This is user-error, not a product error. I’ve shot at Monument Valley, Banff, Jasper and Glacier National Parks and BURIED lenses in dirt and sand. These lenses are STILL used today with no internal damage because I simply wash the ULC off with water before putting them back onto the lenses.

How much time does that add to switching lenses?  I’m guessing a lot more than 5 seconds...


Quote
Stickier than plastic caps = Can’t clean it with air. When I used to use traditional lens cap and clean them with air, the only way I did it was by blowing on it, which just replaces what was on the traditional lens cap with bacteria and my spit so naturally I follow up with wiping it off with my shirt sleeve... which times collected dust and lint. I haven’t clocked the time to do that, but my gut feels it would take just as long as running the ULC under some water and then drying it off.

Your gut is really, really wrong on this one.  A wipe of the inner surface of a traditional lens cap on a shirt sleeve can’t take more than a second, or two if you want to be really thorough.  If you honestly believe that you can rinse and dry the interior of a cylindrical piece of silicone/rubber in 1-2 seconds, you’re deluding yourself in the extreme.  It would take longer than that just to get water running over the silicone (unless you were standing in a thunderstorm or under a waterfall...in which case, drying it would be somewhat problematic).


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More Flexible than plastic caps = could flex and touch glass elements. Yes, you’re right. It COULD flex to then possibly touch glass elements. You’re right. Again, I can’t rebuttal assumptions and possible case scenarios. So yes, in some cases, the elasticity of the ULC might actually touch the glass elements.

In some cases...it might actually?  Although some lenses have recessed front elements, for most lenses, the front element is fairly close to the filter threads (which are generally the front-most part of the lens).  With those typical lenses, any mild, focused pressure on the front of the covered lens would certainly result in the ULC contacting the glass.  In some cases, like the 11-24 and TS-E 17 (which you earlier suggested was a suitable lens for the ULC), the front element is bulbous and would be in continual contact with the ULC.  Moreover, if there is a front filter on a lens, the distance between the glass and the front of the filter mount is usually less than a millimeter, and in that case, contact of the ULC with the filter would be frequent or continuous.  Far different than a traditional, rigid lens cap.

OKAY! I'm back on!! SO

Quote
When switching lenses in an active shoot, the difference between less than a second to slap a traditional lens cap on vs. the extra 5 seconds apply a ULC can matter...a lot.  Especially since it requires two hands to put on the ULC, meaning I’d have to set the camera down.  Normally, I can ‘fully’ swap lenses in 3-4 seconds (one mounted lens and a second lens with both caps on and hood reversed to the second lens mounted with hood in place and prior lens with both caps on and hood reversed), and the camera never leaves my hand.  The ULC would least triple that time.

That's a good point and seeing that a 5 second delay is a big issue in this situation, especially swapping out lenses multiple times in one photoshoot totally negates getting the Universal Lens Cap. If I were you with this scenario, I wouldn't get the ULC either. The product doesn't help, but hinder your photoshoots and we don't want that.

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How much time does that add to switching lenses?  I’m guessing a lot more than 5 seconds…

You’re right on this. It probably does take longer than 5 seconds but I couldn’t give you an exact time delay due to not being in those situations at the moment. My conclusion is that if your style of photography REQUIRES no delays and maximum efficiency, the ULC wouldn’t be an asset but a liability to your photography.


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Your gut is really, really wrong on this one.  A wipe of the inner surface of a traditional lens cap on a shirt sleeve can’t take more than a second, or two if you want to be really thorough.  If you honestly believe that you can rinse and dry the interior of a cylindrical piece of silicone/rubber in 1-2 seconds, you’re deluding yourself in the extreme.  It would take longer than that just to get water running over the silicone (unless you were standing in a thunderstorm or under a waterfall...in which case, drying it would be somewhat problematic).

Haha, again I should have thought through my response with this one. I just tested it again to see how long it would take and it takes much longer to wash and dry than it does to blow then dry off with a sleeve. The ULC is definitely not an efficiency-promoting accessory in this instance.

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In some cases...it might actually?  Although some lenses have recessed front elements, for most lenses, the front element is fairly close to the filter threads (which are generally the front-most part of the lens).  With those typical lenses, any mild, focused pressure on the front of the covered lens would certainly result in the ULC contacting the glass.  In some cases, like the 11-24 and TS-E 17 (which you earlier suggested was a suitable lens for the ULC), the front element is bulbous and would be in continual contact with the ULC.  Moreover, if there is a front filter on a lens, the distance between the glass and the front of the filter mount is usually less than a millimeter, and in that case, contact of the ULC with the filter would be frequent or continuous.  Far different than a traditional, rigid lens cap.

That is all totally true, good point. I’m not sure how often the contact of the ULC with the glass would have collected sand and dust particles, scratching the glass or potentially roughing up the glass, but in any case, we’ll better communicate this to potential buyers that the ULC can come into contact with the glass of one’s lenses and because of this, it would behoove anyone to buy the ULC that they take into account this factor. To the ULC’s defense, it can be stretched over traditional lens caps, making it so the ULC never touches the glass, the lens has double the protection thanks to the TLC (Traditional Lens Cap) and the ULC, and neither lens cap will be falling off thanks to the ULCs grip to the sides of the lenses.

Anyways, thank you for bringing up all valid points. I've already set up a meeting with our entire team today that will be going over specifically the points you brought up and other points mentioned by other photographers on this forum. Thank you again for all of your help. All of your points are really going to help us better market and design future versions of the ULC and all our future products moving forward!


Sincerely,

KUVRD

KUVRD

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2017, 10:19:33 AM »
Externally focusing lenses with protruding inner barrels (85 f/1.2L II, 50 f/1.4, etc.) may get a pre-load/push from using this… We’ve tested this on other such camera lenses like this and this hasn’t been the case… but even if it was, I don’t understand what the issue is… Would you mind clarifying the “CON” that would come from this?

Some lenses, esp. the 50 f/1.4 USM, stick out and can be a bit fragile if you push on the front element and the inner barrel is pushed forward.  See attached from LensTests.com -- at MFD (or anything approaching MFD), the inner barrel sticks out and force (downward in this shot) forces the inner barrel to retract in a friction-y fragile sort of way. 

I suppose you could avoid pushing KUVRD on all the way, but would you know if you did?

- A

Quote
Some lenses, esp. the 50 f/1.4 USM, stick out and can be a bit fragile if you push on the front element and the inner barrel is pushed forward.  See attached from LensTests.com -- at MFD (or anything approaching MFD), the inner barrel sticks out and force (downward in this shot) forces the inner barrel to retract in a friction-y fragile sort of way. 

I suppose you could avoid pushing KUVRD on all the way, but would you know if you did?


Great point. In this instance, there is no ‘pushing’ the ULC onto a lens.. it’s more a stretching it over the lens. In regards to the inner barrel sticking out, this is the case with a lot of older lenses and STM lenses and with all the older lenses we’ve tested it on, there hasn’t been any issues of barrel retraction and hurting the lens. I wish I could give you more feedback than that, but that’s all I’ve got for now. Sorry! 

KUVRD

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2017, 10:30:47 AM »
Neuro's underscoring my concerns pretty well.

I'll particularly call out this idea being problematic for:

  • The stop and pop enthusiast shooter.  A lot of people shoot street, candids, and travel this way.  Unless I'm leaving my camera out in a general walkabout shooting situation (usually with a hood on, attached to a BR strap, etc.), the flow is:  open satchel --> draw --> un-cap --> frame --> shoot --> cap --> holster in bag --> move on.  That flow would be dramatically slowed down by this idea.

  • Not identifying lenses in the bag --> my 16-35 f/4L and 24-70 f/4L would just look like two 77mm diameter black beer cans in this setup.  Other lens pairs (adjacent FL primes comes to mind) have similar footprints and would be difficult to ascertain here.  The risk is not the added few seconds -- the risk is taking the wrong lens with you as you don't bring everything you own to every shoot!

  • Stuff sticking to the inside requiring a rinse out and air dry:  that's fine to do at home, but what do you do if you get your KUVRD gunked in the field?  One could rinse it out easily enough, but particulate free drying in the field is a non-starter -- few of us carry chamois cloths in the field, and using a shirt / cloth will leave dust and residue inside the cap.  And just rinsing it and shaking it out and then using it is tantamount to putting your front element in a humidor.  Strikes me as a problematic limitation.

  • I have a fundamental problem squaring how something designed to protect a front element could quite easily come into direct contact with the thing it was intended to protect.  Hard caps never have this problem, right?

- A

Ahsanford, that first bullet point is true. Your process would be slowed dramatically by the ULC.

Your second point is valid as well. With the varying lengths of lenses, the ULC doesn’t completely cover them but that wouldn’t take away from the fact the ULC might ‘confuse’ a photographer from grabbing the right lens.

Third point is valid as well. If you’re out in the field and you get gunk inside the ULC, and rinse it out and don’t want to wait for the ULC to dry or to shake off the remaining water and then pat down the ULC and if you don’t carry chamois cloths… then yes, it’s problematic and the ULC isn’t for you. With that said, someone like that doesn’t sound like a photographer who loses a lens cap… and if they are someone who did lose it, wouldn’t you agree that having the ULC is better than not having anything to cover your lenses?

With your last point, you are right. Hard caps don’t have the problem but as mentioned by other photographers, you could always put the hard cap on first and then stretch the ULC onto the lens with prevents the hard cap from falling off, better protects your lens in general and the ULC won’t potentially touch the glass.

Hopefully that answers your questions!

KUVRD

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #71 on: December 14, 2017, 10:32:11 AM »
I think he found us after  I gave him a heads up on FB that there's a tough crowd here for him to check out. Who knew it would turn into such a market research love fest!

Yes, and I appreciate greatly you showing us this! It's really helped us gather great feedback and take a better look at our product and how we might better market it and design it in the future!

KUVRD

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2017, 10:34:31 AM »
I think he found us after  I gave him a heads up on FB that there's a tough crowd here for him to check out. Who knew it would turn into such a market research love fest!

With design work, I've found that if one is honest with the limitations of their own work, it can improve.

If one is bull-headed and takes grave umbrage to folks calling his baby ugly, it's hard to improve because your ears/mind are closed.

The KUVRD person here is clearly the former and not the latter, so I welcome improving the concept here. 

Don't get me wrong, stubbornness is useful for steamrolling through barriers and overcoming tough obstacles, or if you have a crystal clear marketing message you don't want to deviate from, but stubbornness is a serious liability in optimizing designs with a wide spread of different user groups.  In those cases, it literally takes a village, and in this case, we the photogs of the world are that village.

- A

112% agree with this. One's ego needs to be checked at the door when designing something that is supposed to be used by a wide-spread group of different users. If not, the product usually fails and often times impedes general innovation and progression of humanity in general.  Great points ahsanford.

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2017, 10:34:31 AM »

AJ

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2017, 10:37:45 AM »
Not identifying lenses in the bag --> my 16-35 f/4L and 24-70 f/4L would just look like two 77mm diameter black beer cans in this setup.

- A

Good point.  It got me thinking - why not just use a beer can cozy
https://mybeercozy.com/product/funny-beer-quotes-set-1/

KUVRD

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2017, 10:38:49 AM »
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm actually thinking there might be some cases where I could use these.

Explanation: The shoulder bag I use (a discontinued Nova Sport 35L from Lowepro) works very well to carry two bodies and three lenses -- 24-105; 16-35 and 70-200. But sometimes I want to throw in a specialty lens -- the 8-15 fisheye for example. That means one lens either has to go in one of the webbed pockets on the outside, where it gets banged into doors, against fences, dugouts, seating, etc., or it has to share space with one of the other lenses, were they both can get banged around.

I can totally see myself putting one of these over the lens to provide a little extra protection. In those cases, I'm also unlikely to need to switch lenses super fast, so the extra time and handling wouldn't be a problem. Heck, I could even see myself setting a lens down in the grass beside my bag while I'm shooting. 

Other times I may be walking around a track meet, cross country meet, golf meet, etc., with a backpack where I'll throw in an extra lens or body. Again, I could see myself slipping one of these babies over a lens so I can just toss it in the backpack without taking much care or worrying about it bouncing around a bit.

I realize that most people don't mistreat their equipment quite to the extent that I do. But, I am saying that maybe, just maybe, for some of us these might be worth considering.


YESSSSSSS, that’s what I’m talking about! hahaha… As Frank Underwood said on House of Cards, “You can't turn a no to a yes without a maybe in between.”

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Re: Kickstarter: The Universal Lens Cap by KUVRD
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2017, 10:38:49 AM »