January 18, 2018, 06:50:16 AM

Author Topic: 5DIV v 5DV v 5D-M  (Read 3791 times)

archiea

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Re: 5DIV v 5DV v 5D-M
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2017, 09:23:56 PM »
I just watched some Jaron Lanier videos to get onto the Mirrorless rant mode..  XD

I own the 5Dmiii and the various M cameras (Original M, M3, M5). Prior to that was the 20D, 30D, 7Dmark1.  I also bought my friend's Fuji X-t2 body to use the Leica M mount rangefinder lenses that I use on the canon M cameras since beside the 22mm and special purpose 11-22mm, there are no wide aperture canon M lenses. I get gorgeous photos with that combo... canon folks who want a low cost/high IQ system should look into doing that.

Obstacles with mirrorless:
1) Short flange for full frame necessitating a new lens mount and tech.
2) Battery drainage not just from EVF and LCD, but also from newer require features like Optical stabilization, Sensor based stabilization, wireless antenna and GPS tagging.
3) Size expectation that they should be small, which leads to:
4) Heat dissipation from the battery heavy features mentioned above.
5) speed because of the processor heavy features (Evf, focus peaking, overlays, etc)
6) Speed because of the evf blackout for continuous shooting.
7) 4K video for the 4K-holics

DLSR's for 10 years have enjoyed having conquered much of the above, with the 5Div adding geotagging and wireless with some battery life.  We are used to seeing fast playback and no delay between features. 

It took sony up until the A7r-3 to conquer most of the above and almost bankrupting themselves.

It takes a while to reboot a technology to offer the same efficiencies that the prior tech took decades to develop.

Remember, it wasn't until OLED screens that we FINALLY get the black levels we used to get from Fine CRT-based displays like sony CRT XBRs.  It was a reboot of the tech.

Canon's current Mirrorless: i.e m5
The main issue I have with he Canon mirrorless tech is that they are crippled consumer products, not professional they way Fuji puts their best tech forward and gets even better with firmware updates.
Canon Mirrorless can't chew gum and walk at the same time.  While the card with writing, you can't zoom in the viewfinder to focus next shot. The M3 overheats in extreme use (Not extreme weather) and the electronic level freeze.
Zooming to Manual Focus takes a beat. Overall it feels like Powershot parts for the corporate parts bin were relabeled as EOS.

I believe for the canon mirrorless to work, it would have to be as disruptive as the move from FD to EF lenses.  For AF Canon had to re-boot its lens format. For the issues of Flange distance and the sensor color cast and smearing from wide angle lenses along the edges, canon will have to do the same.  Leica solved this by not having a having a filter stack in front of their sensor AND by incorporation micro lenses to help steer the light rays to a more perpendicular angle when they hit the sensor.   Sony, instead, added the flange distance to almost EVERY ONE OF THEIR LENSES.  Sony didn;t solve the problem, but they came out first!  Betamax and VHS all over again!

Fuji averted this by
1) going APS-C to no compete with expensive full frame
2) Leapfrogged Fullframe to the nice market of Medium Format, using their aps-c cameras as test beds for what the public ants and what sells.
3) Modeling their cameras for photographs: the xpro2 and the x-t2 are very well renowned by their photographers
4) They make the lenses.

So for canon to do it right:
1) reboot EF lenses as maybe the EF-mF to make a proper mirrorless format from the ground up.
2) Offer a converter similar to the ef -> ef-m to help folks leverage their current lenses on a new tech like the mirrorless.
3) Don't goof on "Consumer Features" like wireless, GPS tagging, focus peaking, Vectoprscopes, and the M5's drag-to-focus. Include them all. "We have a cinema line.." just add sony buyers. Use those features as gateway drugs to the Cinema line, not punishment.  That what you did with your newest Live-view AF system.
4) That being said, keep the tilting screen to just up and down, if at all,  its more robust. The swing out screens are looking to be busted. It invites damage. Curious how the fuji and sony screens are doing. that being said, I LOVE the portrait tilt of the
5) Sony's ARiii's dual USB for tethering and power is genius.... Listen to your customers, they know better than you what they want.
6) DSLR development should happen in conjunction to their mirrorless development so that both platforms have plenty of overlap. this would help folks migrate over years because its like switching platforms...

Thats my 2 cents, Thx for reading....


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Re: 5DIV v 5DV v 5D-M
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2017, 09:23:56 PM »

Dreamer

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Re: 5DIV v 5DV v 5D-M
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2017, 09:59:23 PM »
Wow!  Thanks Rjbray and archiea.

Yes i have a Panasonic G85 - and i love it.  It's the reason i really want Canon's FF mirrorless to be a real step up.  I have no idea what their current mirrorless products offer - i hear good and bad (but that is the case with most camera's these days.)  I went to Panny for a travel camera as the reviews were brilliant and Canon couldnt match the product offering at the time.  I have no regrets.  I love the mirrorless M4T set up and functionality. If the M5 was available at the time of my G85 with similar functionality - i would have bought it too.  But IBIS, OLED EVF, large lens selection, 4K video et cetera. It was hard to pass up

I have a few(not as much as most here) EF lenses and want to stick with the Canon eco system.  I, personally, find no merit in switching away from Canon.  The make an excellent product - full stop.

Thanks for both your views - much appreciated
5D3, 24-70 L II, 70-200 L II, 50/1.4, 35/2

Trying to harness mind, body, spirit & the light

ahsanford

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Re: 5DIV v 5DV v 5D-M
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2017, 03:27:46 PM »
If Canon go FF, do you think it will be with EF backwards compatibility, or will they continue to develop the M range of lenses to deal with FF???

Canon's FF mirrorless ILC system will 100% allow EF lens use at day one.   The only question is whether this will be enabled with a native EF mount onboard or a thinner mount + adaptor to work.

Canon will not shoot itself in the foot with a standalone super thin FF mirrorless platform that does not have an EF adaptor.  People would riot outside of Canon corporate if they pulled a stunt like that.

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ahsanford

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Re: 5DIV v 5DV v 5D-M
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2017, 03:44:18 PM »
As far as timing of future bodies goes, I'll be super brave ::) and say a FF mirrorless ILC system will be offered before a 5D5, which one does not think we'd see until the 2020-2021 neighborhood.

...but there's zero guarantee the first FF ILC body from Canon will have a 5D-level feature set.  If the EOS M platform is any indication, they very well may go from bottom to top.  They could try to scoop up enthusiasts with a 6D-level mirrorless body before they try to court professionals with a 5D-level or 1DX-level mirrorless body.

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BillB

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Re: 5DIV v 5DV v 5D-M
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2017, 04:37:59 PM »
As far as timing of future bodies goes, I'll be super brave ::) and say a FF mirrorless ILC system will be offered before a 5D5, which one does not think we'd see until the 2020-2021 neighborhood.

...but there's zero guarantee the first FF ILC body from Canon will have a 5D-level feature set.  If the EOS M platform is any indication, they very well may go from bottom to top.  They could try to scoop up enthusiasts with a 6D-level mirrorless body before they try to court professionals with a 5D-level or 1DX-level mirrorless body.

- A

Quite a while ago, there was a rumor (or some Canon official said) that a new sensor was being developed for FF mirrorless.  No guarantees, but a new sensor seems likely to be  highendish.

ahsanford

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Re: 5DIV v 5DV v 5D-M
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2017, 04:50:46 PM »
Quite a while ago, there was a rumor (or some Canon official said) that a new sensor was being developed for FF mirrorless.  No guarantees, but a new sensor seems likely to be  highendish.

The 6D2 had a new sensor as well.   ::)

But even if it was a groundbreaking new sensor, what if that nice sensor is stuck in a body with...

  • Only 5 fps
  • Some features locked out unless you get native thin-mount lenses
  • A tiny viewfinder (or no integral VF at all, remember the first three EOS M models didn't have one!)
  • A tiny grip ill-suited for large EF glass or a large battery
  • Fairly inexpensive plastic body
  • No 4K

I'm obviously frankensteining something unattractive above, but Canon might walk before it runs in this space and put out something with relatively limited appeal just to scoop up early adopters and work out the kinks before something slick/polished is ever brought forward.

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brad-man

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Re: 5DIV v 5DV v 5D-M
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2017, 05:10:54 PM »
As far as timing of future bodies goes, I'll be super brave ::) and say a FF mirrorless ILC system will be offered before a 5D5, which one does not think we'd see until the 2020-2021 neighborhood.

...but there's zero guarantee the first FF ILC body from Canon will have a 5D-level feature set. If the EOS M platform is any indication, they very well may go from bottom to top.  They could try to scoop up enthusiasts with a 6D-level mirrorless body before they try to court professionals with a 5D-level or 1DX-level mirrorless body.

- A

Then it will have a new mount and a frustratingly limited selection of slow zooms :P

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Re: 5DIV v 5DV v 5D-M
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2017, 05:10:54 PM »

Dreamer

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Re: 5DIV v 5DV v 5D-M
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2017, 05:22:13 PM »
Thanks Ahsanford and others.  Given i've always said this is based on the balance of probabilities, and given Canon have already taken a slow and steady approach to the development of their FF range - i would think the ability to learn from Sony and ensure it remains on top of the heap, knowing Nikon is also feverishly developing their own first FF camera, would surely mean this would be for the EF mount.

I would also agree it's whether it would be of 5D quality that is the unknown factor here - but why wouldnt it be? Surely Sony has now reached 1D quality with its A9 in terms of speed et cetera.

I'm not sure what being late to the party would achieve for Canon at the FF mirrorless level if it's not at the level people are all now expecting.  I get they fear it could mean a cannibilisation of their 5D market - but surely that wouldnt be the case, as they are market leaders. Surely all it means is that those thinking of switching to another system now remain and it gives Canon opportunity to merely further develop the mirrorless technology over a period of time?
5D3, 24-70 L II, 70-200 L II, 50/1.4, 35/2

Trying to harness mind, body, spirit & the light

ahsanford

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Re: 5DIV v 5DV v 5D-M
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2017, 05:23:52 PM »
Then it will have a new mount and a frustratingly limited selection of slow zooms with their native mirrorless mount lens offerings, but a houseload of awesome professional lenses will work from day one.

Fixed that for you.   ;)

Unlike with EOS M, which lacks high quality EF-S glass to adapt, any Canon mirrorless FF offering will have world class glass from day one.

Unless you want world class and native mount from day one, which (a) isn't happening and (b) won't be that small -- only a handful of lenses will lead to smaller aggregate footprint (think pancakes, 35 f/2, 50 1.8, etc.) will you actually save much aggregate space for that sexy thin mount -- if we even get that thin mount.

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Re: 5DIV v 5DV v 5D-M
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2017, 05:23:52 PM »