January 23, 2018, 01:35:47 AM

Author Topic: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's  (Read 3276 times)

g-spot

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Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« on: January 03, 2018, 05:49:41 PM »
Hi to you all,

Been using a crop 1D4 for a while in combi with 400 L IS 2.8 for aviation photography, but now I'm thinking about switching to a 1DX FF.. However, I just love cropping pics afterwards to make detailed compositions, and I wonder when reading all kinds of analysis and reviews, if a FF will satisfy me when it comes to this particular part (cropping - details with more sharpness).
Besides losing a bit of mm's, I don't want to have less sharpness when cropping, on the contrary.

What is your experience, advice and what would you recommend?

Thx

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Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« on: January 03, 2018, 05:49:41 PM »

okaro

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2018, 06:04:47 PM »
Your current camera has 175 pixels/mm. EOS 1D X has 144 and mark II 152 so you probably lose detail EOS 7D Mark II might be better. It has pixel density of 244 pixels/mm.

g-spot

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2018, 06:08:30 PM »
Thx for the reply.
I also have a 7D2 and imo the quality (sharpness - and for sure on very low shutter speed) of the 1D4 is better.. 7D2 has more quality when it comes to vivid colors. I considered switching to FF 5D3 but the FPS is way to low for me on those..


johnf3f

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2018, 08:29:02 PM »
I used to have the Canon 1D4 and now use the Canon 1DX and 7D2 - and I want LOTS of mm's! Probably why I have the Canon 800mm!

My observations:

Firstly the 1DX (with it's lower pixel density) out ranges/out crops the 1D4 - the 1DX just produces more detail and is a better camera in every way except it drains batteries a little quicker.

Secondly the Canon 7D2 only has a (surprisingly small) reach advantage under ideal conditions and in every other way (except price) lags behind my 1DX.

If you want the best in AF lock on and tracking then I would suggest a good used 1DX or a 1DX2 if you could stretch to it.

I am not an Aviation photographer, though I do shoot a few airshows, I photograph Birds and other wildlife so I am far more demanding/critical of a camera's AF performance which is why I use the 1DX.
Canon 1DX, 7D2, 16-35 F4 L IS, 24-70 F2.8 V2, 100 F2.8 Macro, 100-400 L IS Mk2, 300 F2.8 L IS, 800 F5.6 L IS, Holga Pinhole lens.

FTb-n

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2018, 09:25:08 PM »
Not all lenses can focus sharp enough to render well for the small pixels and the density of modern crop sensors.  In my case, the EF 70-200 f2.8L IS II is sharper on the 5D3 and 1Dx, than the 7D.  I get sharper images croping shots from these FF bodies than using the uncropped 7D shot. 

As I understand it, the density of the 18+ megapixel crop sensors record the edge blur of a focus point on an image that essentually falls between the pixels of the less dense FF sensor.  EF lenses are designed for FF sensors

The APS-H sensor of the 1D4 falls between the APS-C and FF sensors in size and pixel density.  I would expect better results cropping from the 1Dx sensors, than either the APS-H or the APS-C sensors.
Varsity Team: 1Dx, 5D3, 70-200 f2.8L IS II, 100-400 f4.5-5.6L IS II, 24-70 f2.8L II   <<>>   JV Team: 24-105 f4L IS, 35 f2 IS, 40 f2.8, PowerShot G16

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2018, 09:35:20 PM »
Its not a simple comparison, as many have found out.  At Iso 100 and fast shutter speeds, a 7D MK II may have a small advantage, but raise Iso to 800 or maybe even 400 and the tables turn.  Shutter speeds can impact sharpness as well, IS stabilizes camera movement, but not subject movement, so depending on how much motion there is during the time the shutter is open will affect sharpness, and you can usually get faster shutter speeds from a ff body while bumping the Iso to a value that would severely affect a crop.  Helicopters have a big advantage.

Look into drones as well, they operate at lower altitudes and don't need big expensive lenses.  They are undoubtedly taking business away from High Altitude Aviation photography, and they are improving rapidly.

Its just not simple, and each person may have a different experience based on what and how they shoot.

The next new generation of 7D bodies will boost the pixel count, so I'd wait and try one.  Rent a 1DX MK II and compare.

unfocused

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2018, 11:43:02 PM »
If you can live with 7fps, get a 5D IV. It has a higher mp count than either 1Dx, but no increase in noise at higher ISOs.

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2018, 11:43:02 PM »

9VIII

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2018, 01:19:00 AM »
Here’s a thought.
Get an SL2 just for kicks, it’ll make a great travel camera, and you’ll get to test the new 24MP sensor.

aceflibble

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2018, 05:09:25 AM »
First, before you decide to switch, bear in mind that a 7Dmk3 is due to be announced within the next couple of months and should be on store shelves just another month or so after that. It will undoubtedly have the highest pixel density of any Canon camera and it will most likely have no AA filter, a faster burst rate, a deeper buffer, and possibly a better AF system than the 1DXmk2. For that reason, I would strongly advise not buying a 1DX2 just yet; it's a lot of money for something which will (probably) be 'beaten' for action by a much cheaper model in just a few months' time.

Second, the key is there is no global answer as to which lens and body combination will net you the most resolution balanced vs image quality. Fact is that some lenses hold up well with high-density sensors, and others do not. Similarly, the image quality of the sensor will vary wildly depending on the shooting conditions and subject matter; the 7D2, for example, can beat the 1D4 in all quality regards, if it's getting enough light for the ISO to be kept low. But of course if you're getting less light in there and you need to shoot at something like ISO 1600, then it becomes a very different story. Then you're talking about balancing the lens' ability to resolve for high-density vs detail reduced by noise...

 
As the most general rule, I'd say moving from the 1D4 is always going to be a trade. What you lose in 'reach'/density you'll gain in colour accuracy and less intrusive noise. The 400mm f/2.8 is optically clean enough that it holds up with high-density sensors (it's dead equal with the 300mm f/2.8, which holds up just fine adapted to 100mp medium format sensors), but if you ever use any other lenses, it may become a consideration.

If you want a 35mm sensor with the option to crop in just like the 1D4, look at the 5DS R. You can throw away half of its resolution (if you're often cropping more than that, I'd suggest you need a longer lens than 400mm!) and you still have a larger file than the 1D4 produces, with the same level of noise, slightly more tone range, and more accurate colour. The 5D4 is also another worthwhile option as it's that bit faster than the 5DS R and is an even middle ground between the 1DX2 and the 5DS R in terms of resolution. Compared to the 1D4 the image quality of the 5D4 should be equal when cropping, and much better when not cropping.

The 7D3 isn't out yet, but for sake of argument, even if it uses the existing Canon APS-C 24mp sensor with the processor of the 1DX2 (which is normal for the 7-series), that still matches the 1D4 in colour and tone reproduction, and swaps a small increase in noise for a big jump in resolution, which should even out, depending on how you finally view the image. If the (strong) rumours are true that the 7D3 will also get rid of the AA filter and have a fresh 26mp+ sensor, that should mean it'll beat the 1D4 in all image quality perimeters, and while some lenses could have trouble with such as high-density sensor, I have no reason to doubt the 400mm f/2.8 would be just fine.
 

So, to sum up: forget the 1DX2, because that's a camera made for durability more than anything else, and if image quality-vs-resolving power-vs-optical reach is what you're hung up on, the 1DX2 is actually at the bottom of the pack. The 5DS R and 5D4 will give you better image quality if you really want a 35mm sensor, or wait for the 7D3 if you want a best-available action camera.
(If you can't wait for the 7D3 and the 5DS R feels too slow for you,  then you could switch to Nikon where the D500 and D850 are currently the action cameras. You'd lose quite a lot of money making that switch, though.)

Mikehit

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2018, 08:00:42 AM »
Its a tricky one.
I have the 7D2, 5DIV and the 1Dx2, and used (albeit briefly) a 1Dx. In good light the 7D2 can beat the 1DX2 for detail even on crops, but at ISO 1600 and above the pixel quality of the FF  models means they beats the 7D2 even in cropping.

But IQ is not the only factor - if you are photographing in anything less than ideal light (and I  include some nicely illuminated conditions in that!), especially moving subjects, all FF models are, more assured in their focussing especially when using 2x converter.

g-spot

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2018, 07:22:34 PM »
Thank you all for your replies.

Switching to Nikon doens't seems to be an option, I would be loosing so much money indeed.
1DX2 will be way above budget so no can do, and 5D4 is (altough a super camera) not an option because it just feels to slow for what I need.

That leaves the 1DX with a convertor, but this again influences quality (=read sharpness) of the image .. and it eats away 1 or 2 stops in light.
https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-Extender-EF-2x-III-Review.aspx
However, when cropping, does losing some sharpness matter when you already have the subject 2x closer?

Waiting for the 7D3.. but in that case I can't stop wondering that if it is 'the best', why Canon still produces or sells those 1D(XXX) series for much more money??


Gert.


« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 07:51:40 PM by g-spot »

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2018, 11:53:19 PM »
Thank you all for your replies.

Waiting for the 7D3.. but in that case I can't stop wondering that if it is 'the best', why Canon still produces or sells those 1D(XXX) series for much more money??


Gert.
Its because a thing sometimes referred to as pixel quality.  Tiny pixels seem to lose quality slightly, and crammed together, light rays spill over across them, so you do not get the high resolution that you might expect.  You get higher resolution, but not equal to the pixel count. 
Each generation improves, but real gains are small.

I have a 5D MK IV and a SL2, and really like the SL2 images.

jolyonralph

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2018, 03:04:08 AM »
Cropping with the 5DSR is a wonderful thing.
Jolyon Ralph

Cameras: 5DSR, A7RII, 5D III, EOS M6/M5/M3, Mavic Pro, DXO One.  Oh, and more lenses than I care to count.

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2018, 03:04:08 AM »

privatebydesign

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2018, 10:49:46 AM »

Waiting for the 7D3.. but in that case I can't stop wondering that if it is 'the best', why Canon still produces or sells those 1D(XXX) series for much more money??


Gert.

There is no 'BEST', there is only a 'best' for a specific use. For a general/wedding/events camera the 5D MkIV is the 'best', for low light sports and very dynamic situations the 1DX MkII is 'best', for studio portraiture/product/traditional landscape work the 5DS/R are the 'best'. Vlogging? 6D MkII... Case use is paramount when choosing the 'best' camera for any specific task.

Which makes your original question an easy one to answer.

Hi to you all,

Been using a crop 1D4 for a while in combi with 400 L IS 2.8 for aviation photography, but now I'm thinking about switching to a 1DX FF.. However, I just love cropping pics afterwards to make detailed compositions, and I wonder when reading all kinds of analysis and reviews, if a FF will satisfy me when it comes to this particular part (cropping - details with more sharpness).
Besides losing a bit of mm's, I don't want to have less sharpness when cropping, on the contrary.

What is your experience, advice and what would you recommend?

Thx

Look at your EXIF data, if you are shooting over 800iso for the majority of your best images then a cropped ff image will give as much detail as an uncrossed crop sensor image.

People like Keith Breazeal who posts lots of air racing from Arizona, with it's glorious light, will benefit from the crop sensor or using the 5DSR as that light will realize the advantage of those smaller pixels. People shooting in low contrast cloudy conditions will not, they will benefit from the more assured AF and response time from the 1DX series cameras.

You do not need a TC to equal the resolution results from a cropped full frame sensor and a full crop sensor on same generation cameras when shooting at 800iso or higher. This has been proven and illustrated many times.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

3kramd5

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2018, 01:49:25 PM »
It will undoubtedly have the highest pixel density of any Canon camera

It undoubtably will not.

I’m not sure what their current highest pixel density camera is, but if they used for example the pixel structure of the PowerShot SX710, at APS-C it would be ~240MP.

7Diii may have the highest pixel density of any canon SLR.



the 1DX2 [is] a camera made for durability more than anything else

Hmm. I’m not sure I agree, and I doubt canon would either. If it were, they’d likely not include moving parts.

pixels... crammed together, light rays spill over across them

Didn’t gapless micro-lenses largely overcome that?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 04:31:58 PM by 3kramd5 »
Some Canon, some Nikon, some Sony, some Olympus

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Re: Crop vs FF for lots of mm's
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2018, 01:49:25 PM »