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Author Topic: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation  (Read 21553 times)

ahsanford

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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2018, 06:56:33 PM »
You say why spend $6500 on that camera? ... where can I get the money to buy it.
Ah, yes, that's why.

Medium Format has a place, and that place is to be markedly better than FF.  But the two current mirrorless MF offerings of late -- the Hass'y and Fuji -- are 50 MP sensored 44x33 medium format that are only marginally better than the 42-50 MP FF offerings out there.

Do they have screamingly fast glass with that larger sensor to generate smaller DOF throughout the focal length range than FF?  Not really, I saw one quick portrait lens and that was it.  The rest of the lenses are relatively slow to keep them from looking like weapons to TSA. ::)

Do these sensors get you more resolution than FF?  0-8 MP vs. FF, so 'no' to 'not much'.

Are these great sensors offering more DR for landscapes and studio work?  Not really, unless you compare to the 5DS, which is admittedly last-gen sensor tech.

Do these cameras come with limitations on AF, throughput, etc. compared to FF?  They sure do.  These products don't have same-sensored peers from major manufacturers, so why offer high fps or quick AF?  They don't need to!

Are the lenses for this system remotely affordable?  (a) What lenses? and (b) No... unless you own some already. 

Seems to me -- with those two cameras in particular -- that you are paying a TON of money for the perception of being better.  You are sinking something like 3x the money into a platform whose only clear-cut advantage is leaf-shutter lenses and 'you wouldn't understand why medium format is better'.  Or you are married to a sensor size to the point that the novelty of a smaller rig is worth turning a blind eye to how little you get above the smaller FF sensor sized systems in doing so.

Don't get me wrong, I see value in Medium Format -- value to offer more DR, more resolution and thinner DOF than FF.  But those two cameras aren't delivering that, unless I'm missing something.  I think they need to get that implement something like that PhaseOne IQ3 sensor (100 MP, more DR) and put FF more clearly behind MF in the rear view mirror -- I just don't know how they do that for less than $10k.

Please educate me, folks, b/c at face value I see the Fuji / Hass'y value proposition as rather crap at first glance.  Please straighten me out on what I'm missing.

- A
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 07:04:07 PM by ahsanford »

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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2018, 06:56:33 PM »

CanonFanBoy

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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2018, 08:47:34 PM »
You say why spend $6500 on that camera? ... where can I get the money to buy it.
Ah, yes, that's why.

Medium Format has a place, and that place is to be markedly better than FF.  But the two current mirrorless MF offerings of late -- the Hass'y and Fuji -- are 50 MP sensored 44x33 medium format that are only marginally better than the 42-50 MP FF offerings out there.

Do they have screamingly fast glass with that larger sensor to generate smaller DOF throughout the focal length range than FF?  Not really, I saw one quick portrait lens and that was it.  The rest of the lenses are relatively slow to keep them from looking like weapons to TSA. ::)

Do these sensors get you more resolution than FF?  0-8 MP vs. FF, so 'no' to 'not much'.

Are these great sensors offering more DR for landscapes and studio work?  Not really, unless you compare to the 5DS, which is admittedly last-gen sensor tech.

Do these cameras come with limitations on AF, throughput, etc. compared to FF?  They sure do.  These products don't have same-sensored peers from major manufacturers, so why offer high fps or quick AF?  They don't need to!

Are the lenses for this system remotely affordable?  (a) What lenses? and (b) No... unless you own some already. 

Seems to me -- with those two cameras in particular -- that you are paying a TON of money for the perception of being better.  You are sinking something like 3x the money into a platform whose only clear-cut advantage is leaf-shutter lenses and 'you wouldn't understand why medium format is better'.  Or you are married to a sensor size to the point that the novelty of a smaller rig is worth turning a blind eye to how little you get above the smaller FF sensor sized systems in doing so.

Don't get me wrong, I see value in Medium Format -- value to offer more DR, more resolution and thinner DOF than FF.  But those two cameras aren't delivering that, unless I'm missing something.  I think they need to get that implement something like that PhaseOne IQ3 sensor (100 MP, more DR) and put FF more clearly behind MF in the rear view mirror -- I just don't know how they do that for less than $10k.

Please educate me, folks, b/c at face value I see the Fuji / Hass'y value proposition as rather crap at first glance.  Please straighten me out on what I'm missing.

- A

Pentax 645z (It isn't mirrorless). I might be wrong, but the larger sensor with an f/2.8 lens might be faster than f/2.8 in a 35mm FF. The 645Z is far less than $10k (About $5,600 I think). I think I read it uses the same sensor as the Hasselblad. I'd love to have one. That and the 90mm lens. There are very reasonable lens offerings, though, for that camera. The 90mm isn't one of the reasonable lenses though.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 08:54:38 PM by CanonFanBoy »
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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2018, 10:52:58 PM »
Canon FF vs Pentax 645z sensor size comparison.
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privatebydesign

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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2018, 11:15:07 PM »
Pentax 645z (It isn't mirrorless). I might be wrong, but the larger sensor with an f/2.8 lens might be faster than f/2.8 in a 35mm FF. The 645Z is far less than $10k (About $5,600 I think). I think I read it uses the same sensor as the Hasselblad. I'd love to have one. That and the 90mm lens. There are very reasonable lens offerings, though, for that camera. The 90mm isn't one of the reasonable lenses though.

F2.8 is f2.8, so they are the same speed and will realise the same exposure, however from a dof perspective the Pentax has a 0.79 crop factor so gives the equivalent of a ‘ff’ camera of f2.2. Nothing to write home about, and certainly there is nothing in medium format glass that will get close to the ‘ff’ f1.4 and f1.2 primes for dof isolation.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

ahsanford

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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2018, 12:23:41 AM »
Pentax 645z (It isn't mirrorless). I might be wrong, but the larger sensor with an f/2.8 lens might be faster than f/2.8 in a 35mm FF.

Not faster in light gathering, but yes, for a given aperture it would have shallower DOF compared to FF.

But I'm used to seeing 'quick' for FF being f/1.4 or f/1.2, and I generally see f/2.8, f/3.2, f/4 for the medium format lenses I've seen.  Fuji I believe has a 110mm f/2, which for MF would be similar to an 87mm f/1.6 if my equivalence calculator skills are correct.  Good... but not better on this front. 

But there certainly seem to be more 'fast' primes for FF in more focal lengths from those MF lenses I've seen.   For instance, you can get f/1.4 (or faster) primes in Canon and Nikon from 24mm to 85mm, and third parties unlock 20 f/1.4, 105 /1.4, 135 f/1.4 - 1.8, etc.  I could be mistaken, but the MF equivalent of those working DOFs for those FLs are not available.

I'm not arguing FF is 'better' on this front -- I'm just saying that MF does not distinguish itself as being clearly better here (at least on this front).  MF has other virtues, but 'boatloads of high quality glass that doesn't cost a mint' isn't necessarily one of them.

- A

ahsanford

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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2018, 12:28:14 AM »
Canon FF vs Pentax 645z sensor size comparison.

Yep, that's the comparison.  But all that extra real estate should net you some combination of:

  • More detail
  • Better high ISO performance
  • More DR

...and from the testing I've seen, the improvement for the jump to that 50 MP 44x33 isn't that big.  Now were it 100MP or 50 MP with 2+ stops of base ISO DR or 2 more stops higher ISO at the same output, etc. it would warrant the price that it is asking for.  But at present offering, other than leaf shutters -- which are no doubt useful -- I'm not seeing the give-to-get being worth it, esp when you think about lens costs.

But in all fairness to MF fans, I've never shot one and I'm looking at this like a Maytag Washer on Consumer Reports and not like an artist.  What the hell do I know?

- A
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 12:44:11 AM by ahsanford »

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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2018, 02:51:42 AM »
Pentax 645z (It isn't mirrorless). I might be wrong, but the larger sensor with an f/2.8 lens might be faster than f/2.8 in a 35mm FF.

Not faster in light gathering, but yes, for a given aperture it would have shallower DOF compared to FF.

Well, I have always heard that a full frame camera performs about a stop better than a crop sensor camera. So while a stop is a stop, the better sensitivity of the larger sensor makes the "equivalent" f/stop different.

This from DPreview:

"Full-frame sensors are 1.2/1.4 stops better in signal to noise ratio than Nikon/Canon crop sensors. That means that a crop-sensor camera at ISO 100 is like a full-frame at ISO 250.

The formula is LOG( SQRT( FF-Area / Crop-Area ) ) / LOG( SQRT( 2 ) )

That’s the sensor only. To finish equating the shooting conditions you need to multiply the F-number of the crop camera by the crop factor. So f/2 on the FF camera is like f/3.2 on a crop-frame. Shutter speed remains the same.

So ISO 100, f/2, 1/60s on a crop camera is like ISO 250, f/3.2, 1/60s on a FF camera."

So one should be able to use a faster shutter speed when using a camera with a larger sensor at the same f/stop as a smaller sensored camera.

So, while we might not see "quick" lenses in medium format, I don't think a medium format camera necessarily needs to be that quick or that an f/2 equivalent is that slow. In the bright desert sun I don't think I can use my 35 at f/1.4 anyway. Also, for tight indoor spots (aka house or apt) the depth of field is just about too shallow to be any good.  From what I can tell, the medium format cameras are mainly used for landscape, portrait and fashion shoots. For those uses a very fast lens isn't required and the lenses are usually stopped down... no matter the lens or sensor.

I understand the larger sensor also gives more detail too. There was a marked difference in detail between my former 70D and my 5D Mark III.

But just like you, what do I know? :) I've not used a medium format camera either. I do know the lens is just one part. Sensor size is important too.

The Pentax has many lenses available in the $1,000 to $2,000 range. In fact, most of them are in that range.

Anyway, I might completely misunderstand what I found on DPreview. I'd still like the Pentax if I could get one. :) I don't see the huge price downside or value downside. With the Hasselblads and such I plainly see it. I don't when it comes to the Pentax. I think that is really my point. That's just what I think. Nobody has to agree. It's all opinion, isn't it?

If I had the choice between a 5DSr and the Pentax and I was shooting portraits or landscapes... I'd choose the Pentax. The Canon, though, has a richer feature set by far. Larger lens selection too.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 03:13:06 AM by CanonFanBoy »
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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2018, 02:51:42 AM »

angrykarl

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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2018, 11:37:57 AM »
So one should be able to use a faster shutter speed when using a camera with a larger sensor at the same f/stop as a smaller sensored camera.

Not true. You would use exactly the same shutter speed and ISO when shooting FF vs crop with both f/2. The difference is that crop ISO 100 is like FF ISO 250 in terms of noise and maybe dynamic range. Not exposure as the crop sensor camera internally compensates it with hidden internal "ISO".
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 11:41:33 AM by angrykarl »
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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2018, 11:56:11 AM »
You say why spend $6500 on that camera? ... where can I get the money to buy it.
Ah, yes, that's why.

Medium Format has a place, and that place is to be markedly better than FF.

That's what I said in the part of my post you've snipped, thank you very much.

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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2018, 09:14:33 PM »
oh... i had already sold off all my canon gear. I believe they are too late to innovate, and will always be 1-2 steps behind competitor.

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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2018, 09:46:20 AM »
oh... i had already sold off all my canon gear. I believe they are too late to innovate, and will always be 1-2 steps behind competitor.

So you think we believe that you used Canon gear and never came here, only to come to CanonRumors now and have your first post be "I SOLD MY CANON GEAR"? I know I dont believe it.
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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2018, 09:52:21 AM »
So one should be able to use a faster shutter speed when using a camera with a larger sensor at the same f/stop as a smaller sensored camera.

Not true. You would use exactly the same shutter speed and ISO when shooting FF vs crop with both f/2. The difference is that crop ISO 100 is like FF ISO 250 in terms of noise and maybe dynamic range. Not exposure as the crop sensor camera internally compensates it with hidden internal "ISO".

f2 will not give same depth of field on crop and FF. Larger sensor will produce blurred images, small sensor the sharp one.

Bokeh was usually just an UNDESIRABLE side-effect before smartphones. Now it is the easiest, laziest and most popular way to distinguish pro-photos from small-sensor-shots made by smartphones and point'n'shoots.

Lack of understanding of ISO equivalence is not the problem. The problem is that 90% of photographers use Auto mode and 9% are afraid to go over 800ISO. That leaves only 1% to use f-stop for depth-of-field rather than a way to ease the fear of noise.
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angrykarl

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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2018, 10:58:30 AM »
f2 will not give same depth of field on crop and FF.

Correct. But I wasn't talking about depth of field, right.  ;)

Bokeh was usually just an UNDESIRABLE side-effect before smartphones. Now it is the easiest, laziest and most popular way to distinguish pro-photos from small-sensor-shots made by smartphones and point'n'shoots.

Bokeh is the quality of out of focus areas caused eg. by more aperture blades, not just the fact that you have smaller depth of field. The smaller depth of field was always desired for some genres, eg. portrait. And besides, there used to be compact cameras and polaroids with small apertures and big depth of field. Smartphones are not new in this.

Lack of understanding of ISO equivalence is not the problem. The problem is that 90% of photographers use Auto mode and 9% are afraid to go over 800ISO. That leaves only 1% to use f-stop for depth-of-field rather than a way to ease the fear of noise.

You're making numbers up just to prove... what exactly?
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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2018, 10:58:30 AM »

C-A430

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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2018, 11:35:26 AM »
You're making numbers up just to prove... what exactly?

I was asking WTF is this supposed to mean:


Not true. You would use exactly the same shutter speed and ISO when shooting FF vs crop with both f/2. The difference is that crop ISO 100 is like FF ISO 250 in terms of noise and maybe dynamic range. Not exposure as the crop sensor camera internally compensates it with hidden internal "ISO".

ISO values are designed in such a way that the film-era light meter will suggest the same shutter speed for the given ISO/f-stop/scene combination regardless of film/CCD/CMOS choice and regardless of sensor size. This was designed loooong time ago and became a norm 70-ish years ago. Its goal is that light meters can be universal for every camera and "crop sensor camera internally compensates it with hidden internal "ISO"" makes NO sense. There is no such thing as cameras internal ISO compensation
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 11:37:49 AM by C-A430 »
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angrykarl

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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2018, 02:46:19 PM »
That's precisely what I said: The same exposure means the same aperture, shutter speed and ISO.

But how do you reckon a camera with eg. crop factor 10 manages the same exposure as a fullframe camera when the latter receives ten times more light over the whole sensor area? Sure, both receive the same amount of photons per 1mm², but crop cameras usually have smaller pixels so each pixel receives less light. How come they have the same brightness as full frame ones? The crop must digitally boost the signal to provide the same exposure with the same ISO. And boosting a signal clamps dynamic range and amplifies noise.

Now what happens when you double the ISO on any camera? It cannot magically catch more photons, so it digitally boosts the signal, which suprisingly clamps dynamic range and amplifies noise...

That's what I meant by (I agree not exactly ideal term) "internal ISO".

But I am no camera engineer, so if you understand the field better, I am all ears.  ;)

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Re: Canon Inc. Boss Wants to See More Innovation
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2018, 02:46:19 PM »