January 18, 2018, 06:54:16 AM

Author Topic: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount  (Read 7982 times)

jolyonralph

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2018, 07:06:41 PM »
I love the idea of curved sensors, but that would be a real problem for all of us with legacy glass!  Entirely new lenses for us all.
Jolyon Ralph

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2018, 07:06:41 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2018, 07:26:15 PM »
Well, if you're going to keep the adaptor stuck on the camera all the time you're not going to leave it at home, are you? :)

It's a rare threat, but it's still a threat.  Most people if stuck with a thin mount setup will eventually say 'aw shucks' and get a pancake or smaller mirrorless mount lens. 

Then you put it in your bag with that lens attached and with three EF lenses and a speedlite to shoot an an event.  You do the visual check of body / lenses / speedlites / blackrapid / batteries / memory cards / etc. and -- everything being there -- you go out on your way.

And you walk into that event without the adaptor.

As improbable as that might be, it 100% will happen to people in their first year of ownership.  Maybe not you, maybe not me, but someone will feel the pain of this.  That failure mode / situation is completely taken off the board with a full EF mount.

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ahsanford

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2018, 07:26:56 PM »
I love the idea of curved sensors, but that would be a real problem for all of us with legacy glass!  Entirely new lenses for us all.

Any chance a *really* fancy adaptor can 'unbend' the light so than an EF lens works on a curved sensor?

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neuroanatomist

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2018, 08:30:50 PM »
Selling cameras to existing customers is important, but the number of Canon EOS owners who own more than just the kit lens is a small percentage of their market.

The number of Canon EOS owners who own a FF dSLR is also a small percentage of their market. But, I'd bet good money that there's a significant overlap between those who own more than just the kit lens and those who own a FF dSLR...and we're discussing a FF MILC here. In other words, Canon owners looking for a FF MILC are those most likely to own multiple lenses.
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jolyonralph

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2018, 03:51:39 AM »

It's a rare threat, but it's still a threat.  Most people if stuck with a thin mount setup will eventually say 'aw shucks' and get a pancake or smaller mirrorless mount lens. 

And yet you're still more likely to go out without a memory card and/or spare batteries. 

I don't really see why this is such a big issue.
Jolyon Ralph

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jolyonralph

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2018, 03:53:08 AM »

Any chance a *really* fancy adaptor can 'unbend' the light so than an EF lens works on a curved sensor?

- A

Only with an adaptor with extra glass inside, and that would impact on quality.

So no, you don't want to use existing glass with a curved sensor.

Now, if Canon can get the sensor to change shape....
Jolyon Ralph

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9VIII

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2018, 04:37:43 AM »
Lenses already cast light at an angle, the sensor would work just fine with existing lenses, even the field of focus is already curved (if my understanding is correct).

The only problem is lenses corrected for a flat sensor would have a bit of distortion on the edges, but it would have to be pretty severe for most people to care, and Canon could build in a software correction.

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2018, 04:37:43 AM »

jolyonralph

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2018, 05:35:57 AM »
Lenses already cast light at an angle, the sensor would work just fine with existing lenses, even the field of focus is already curved (if my understanding is correct).

The only problem is lenses corrected for a flat sensor would have a bit of distortion on the edges, but it would have to be pretty severe for most people to care, and Canon could build in a software correction.

No, the image would be defocused towards the edges as the lens is designed (if it's designed properly!) to project a sharp image onto a flat surface, when that surface is curved you're moving the sensor out of that plane of focus.

The whole reason to do this is that it's much easier to design new lenses that focus onto the curved sensor (so less glass = higher quality + lower weight) than onto a flat plane, so that the new lenses won't work with old sensors, and vice versa.

This would be very much like the switch from FD to EF. There'd be converters to allow attaching lenses, but it'd be optically pointless so you'd be better off selling your old glass and investing in new.

Jolyon Ralph

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littleB

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2018, 05:47:11 AM »

Now, if Canon can get the sensor to change shape....
At least we saw such patent from Canon.

jolyonralph

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2018, 06:39:56 AM »

Now, if Canon can get the sensor to change shape....
At least we saw such patent from Canon.

Yes, but this is an order of magnitude at least more difficult than IBIS, which Canon still haven't figured out.
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privatebydesign

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2018, 09:13:50 AM »
This would be very much like the switch from FD to EF. There'd be converters to allow attaching lenses, but it'd be optically pointless so you'd be better off selling your old glass and investing in new.

Canon made a very small number of FD to EOS converters that only worked with some of the big telephoto lenses, they were actually TC's and had glass in them and never went on the retail market, they were reserved for some of the pros. There was no way, or convertor, that attached general FD glass to EOS bodies reliably.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2018, 10:04:30 AM »
Yes, but this is an order of magnitude at least more difficult than IBIS, which Canon still haven't figured out.

What makes you think they haven't figured it out? All we know is that they haven't implemented IBIS, and they've stated repeatedly that in-lens IS is better. I'm sure they don't mind that they can charge more for every lens with that feature...
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dak723

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2018, 10:46:38 AM »

There is no compromise about a shorter flange distance.   The EF mount *IS* the compromise, with a large flange distance required to keep the mirror out of the way of the back of the lens.

Without the mirror this compromise is not needed.

You seem like a nice fellow.  Your posts, in general, are smart and informative.  So why you keep repeating this falsehood is beyond me.  The more you need to bend the light to meet the sensor, the more image quality decreases.  This is basic optics.  The space needed for the mirror is NOT the only or perhaps even the main reason that the flange distance is what it is in the EF mount.  More space - and less bending of the light - is a plus optically.  Yes, with wide angle lenses, this extra space seems not to be needed.  But otherwise, it is a plus.

Quote
All the talk about shorter flange distances bending light differently are complete red herrings.  Lenses don't have to be designed with the rear element right bang on the flange distance. Indeed even most EF lenses have at least some gap already.

Yes, this is correct and exactly why Sony's higher priced lenses are larger than their EF counterparts.  They add space in the back of the lens.  And those EF lenses you mention that already have some space - my guess is that at those focal lengths, that extra space is needed precisely because more space = better optics.  So, whether you add the space in the back of the lens or in the mount seems to equal things out.  Thus, there is no real advantage in the smaller mount, is there?

Quote
Your personal fear of having to upgrade lenses is just that - fear.

Fear as nothing to do with it.  To replace lenses going from one system to another costs money.  More money than most people can afford.  And it will take years to build up a system of lenses.  I believe it has been said that Canon - or any camera company - can afford and has the resources - to put out 2 or 3 lenses a year.  Just take a look at this forum and the lens requests that people are wanting.  Are you wiling to wait 5 years of more for that prime or super-telephoto that you already have now in EF mount?

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2018, 10:46:38 AM »

Architect1776

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2018, 12:35:30 PM »

This is where Canon could really have an advantage. If they can somehow make the 130million or so EF lenses compatible with a full frame mirrorless without an adaptor, they won’t have a hard time getting Canon DSLR shooters to add a full frame mirrorless to their kit.

It is very simple to make EF lenses compatible.
Look at the FTb, the mount area is extended from the body for the proper lens to film distance and keeping the body thin and in my opinion as thin as can easily be held.
The same could be done for a FF Canon mirrorless keeping the EF mount and even allowing for all EFs lenses as well as there is no mirror issue making all the lenses work wonderfully. This would orphan the M series unless they have the M for the uber small line sort of like Sony has the 6000 series and the M would still be great for using the old FD, FL and R lenses with an adapter not needing glass in it and the M series would still work wonderfully with EF lenses and have M lenses when you want a truly small package for walking around with a lightweight package and still use your 100-400mmL easily with it if desired. Also no incompatibility with any EF lens ever made due to the brilliant engineering of Canon with the EOS system others are just now catching up to.
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jolyonralph

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2018, 01:14:00 PM »
The more you need to bend the light to meet the sensor, the more image quality decreases.  This is basic optics.

And again you're missing the point.

With a shorter flange distance you can make a cheap lens that suffers from the problems you suggest.

But:

a) Sony seem to have done just fine with excellent lenses such as the FE 35mm f/2.8 and the incredible FE 55mm f/1.8    So, if there's an insurmountable optical problem how have Sony figured it out?

b) A longer flange distance prevents you making lenses with a shorter distance to the sensor.  A shorter flange distance does not prevent you making lenses with a longer distance.


I get the argument that you don't want adaptors. It's not ideal, I skipped on the iPhone 7 because I didn't want to use an adaptor for my headphones.

This is a perfectly valid reason NOT to want a new mount.

But, sorry, it's spreading FUD to say that a smaller flange distance = poorer quality optics, for the reasons I've stated above.

I'm going to attach the following image just to show that I have a vested interest in supporting the EF mount. It would be very much more sensible for me to get a EF mirrorless mount. In fact, I'm sure I'd buy one if it had a high enough resolution sensor. I already have the A7RII so I don't actually *need* a more compact FF camera.

But I still think in the long term to compete with Sony and Nikon that Canon do need to look at a new system that is smaller and lighter (at least when using small primes). The 200D shows that this isn't necessarily impossible with an EF mount, but it comes down to can Canon sell the camera to *new buyers* over the Nikon or Sony offerings. Canon, rightly or wrongly, figure that their existing customers will buy what they have to offer regardless!


Jolyon Ralph

Cameras: 5DSR, A7RII, 5D III, EOS M6/M5/M3, Mavic Pro, DXO One.  Oh, and more lenses than I care to count.

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2018, 01:14:00 PM »