February 23, 2018, 02:11:38 AM

Author Topic: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount  (Read 19039 times)

Talys

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #165 on: February 07, 2018, 12:17:47 PM »
As soon as the bigger holdouts such as Canon and Nikon start moving over to the MILC market, expect to see DSLRs being routed.

Because Canon isn't already #2 in the MILC segment, right?  Or by 'moving over' do you mean stop selling dSLRs, which still outsell MILCs by a 2:1 margin?  Because that's a smart, short term move, right?

EF-M mount cameras don't count, because they're missing the 2 most important aspects that define Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Cameras: full frame, and 4k video. 

People who like to say that Canon is #2 in the MILC segment like to conveniently omit that M-series cameras are just DSLRs that are missing mirrors.

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #165 on: February 07, 2018, 12:17:47 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #166 on: February 07, 2018, 12:31:08 PM »
EF-M mount cameras don't count, because they're missing the 2 most important aspects that define Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Cameras: full frame, and 4k video. 

People who like to say that Canon is #2 in the MILC segment like to conveniently omit that M-series cameras are just DSLRs that are missing mirrors.

Ha! +1.

I find these debates are principally about someone wanting to win an argument that it's all about FF mirrorless and Canon still doesn't play there.  Until that happens, any data we throw their way...

Tops in FF
Tops in APS-C
Tops globally in overall sales
#2 in mirrorless (in some markets -- I don't know the global situation)

...is dismissed as Canon being the lonely polar bear on a melting iceberg, totally doomed.

And the funny thing is, the second Canon does come good with an FF mirrorless platform, it will get picked to pieces like a Thanksgiving turkey for the decisions Canon made with it (full EF mount?! no IBIS?! Only 326 AF points?!). There's no pleasing some folks.

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AvTvM

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #167 on: February 09, 2018, 05:10:26 AM »
i think the situation with Canon is not aptly described by "you can't please all folks". Quite the opposite. It is amazing, how stupidly patient many/most Canon customers are, given Canon's multiple failures on each and every front of camera system development.   :P  ::)

"Mirrorless in general", "FF mirrorless" in particular, not fully competitive sensor tech over the last 10 years, no 4k,  or something less often mentioned: why no Eye-controlled AF system in any of their digital cameras ... and and and ?

All we are and were getting from stupid Canon over the last 10 years - ever since they fell behind tech leaders -
 was an endless stream of always the same, marginally changed mirrorslappers and a bunch of Mk. II, Mk. III, Mk. IV  sh*it ... instead of some really groundbreaking, innovative gear. 
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 07:21:38 AM by AvTvM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #168 on: February 09, 2018, 06:46:00 AM »
Is it more likely that the millions of people who buy cameras that meet their needs are stupidly patient, or that a few individuals who think their personal views represent those of the majority are stupid(ly egotistic)?
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ahsanford

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #169 on: February 09, 2018, 11:58:51 AM »
All we are and were getting from stupid Canon over the last 10 years - ever since they fell behind tech leaders -
 was an endless stream of always the same, marginally changed mirrorslappers and a bunch of Mk. II, Mk. III, Mk. IV  sh*it ... instead of some really groundbreaking, innovative gear.

Because we -- and, in this case, you and your expectations -- are. not. the. market.  I can't say this enough. 

If a smaller camera, Eye AF, 4K, oodles of DR, etc. are what the market wanted, Sony would be stealing Canon market share left and right.  That's not happening.  (I'm not saying those features aren't desirable, but they are not enough to unseat some large advantages Canon has (lenses, quality, ergonomics, branding, trust, etc.)).

AvTvM, you almost take on the mentality of a climate change denier with this: all the data in the world will not convince you. 

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Talys

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #170 on: February 09, 2018, 12:13:10 PM »
i think the situation with Canon is not aptly described by "you can't please all folks". Quite the opposite. It is amazing, how stupidly patient many/most Canon customers are, given Canon's multiple failures on each and every front of camera system development.   :P  ::)

"Mirrorless in general", "FF mirrorless" in particular, not fully competitive sensor tech over the last 10 years, no 4k,  or something less often mentioned: why no Eye-controlled AF system in any of their digital cameras ... and and and ?

All we are and were getting from stupid Canon over the last 10 years - ever since they fell behind tech leaders -
 was an endless stream of always the same, marginally changed mirrorslappers and a bunch of Mk. II, Mk. III, Mk. IV  sh*it ... instead of some really groundbreaking, innovative gear.

Speaking for only myself:

1. I still don't really like EVFs for my 4 types of photography I do most: birding, backyard wildlife, cat photos (because I use off camera flash), studio photography.

2. I think the 80D/6D2/5D3 sensors are wondrous things that have more DR than I can use - at least, on properly exposed shots.

3. I haven't yet seen a mirrorless with ergonomics I like (meaning, comfortable to use for long shooting periods).  That includes Canon's.

4. 4k, 1080p, 720p, the entire video and all audio features can be deleted, for all I care.  I would trade it for another custom setting spot on the dial.

5. I would like Eye AF.  But if I must choose between OVF and Eye-AF, I will choose OVF every time.  I suppose, being able to choose OVF with no Eye AF or LiveView Eye AF would be the ideal compromise for me.

6. I don't like my cameras to change very much from generation to generation.  I like them to improve, but being comfortable and controls being reflex actions are an important part of good photography for me.  Plus, I will often carry two bodies, with one of them being older.  I like that I can use a 5 year old Canon body and a brand new one at the same time with all the important stuff in the same places.

Finally: I really do feel that the DSLR market is pretty mature.  For every amazing photo that I see and admire, - largely, what I need to achieve something like that is not more DR or eye AF or whatever.  If I were a better photographer, I'd be able to take most of them with a 5D2 or 5D3.  Until then, whether I have a 6D2 or A7R3 doesn't really matter.

3kramd5

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #171 on: February 09, 2018, 12:20:55 PM »
FWIW he didn’t say “EyeAF” as in the tracking algorithm Sony uses, but eye controlled AF as in the selection mode in canon elan 7ne and some other film SLRs.

not fully competitive sensor tech over the last 10 years

What even does that mean, “not fully competitive?”

Canon is the market leader in spatial resolution (notwithstanding medium formats), sensor-level autofocus (widest coverage and PDAF enabled locations), and close to the top in ISO speeds and (again notwithstanding medium format) color depth. They’re somewhat behind in dynamic range.

Where are they not fully competitive? The sensor market itself in which they don’t participate? The only way to judge canon’s sensor competitiveness is through camera sales. Sony wins because Sony provides vastly most camera sensors (to the smart device makers in particular). Who else does canon trail?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 08:56:20 PM by 3kramd5 »
Some Canon, some Nikon, some Sony, some Olympus

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #171 on: February 09, 2018, 12:20:55 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #172 on: February 09, 2018, 12:29:08 PM »
FWIW he didn’t say “EyeAF” as in the tracking algorithm Sony uses, but eye controlled AF as in the selection mode in canon elan 7ne and some other film SLRs.

Ah, my bad. 

So his dream car may have laser cannons, a dorsal shark fin and flame job on it... but the base car is still a 1999 Honda Insight

Thank you.  My AvTvM log has been updated.

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AvTvM

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #173 on: February 10, 2018, 03:50:50 PM »
i find it very funny that folks who claim they greatly prefer optical viewfinders (OVFs) sing the praise of Canon's DP-AF, which is not active at all in OVF operation, and of limited use in Live-View mode only [DSLRs] and EVF-mirrorless cams. :-)

To me, Canon DP-AF is massively overhyped and overrated. No Canon DP-AF equipped camera - DSLRs and mirrorless alike - delivers "best-in class AF performance" ... despite all those DP-AF shenanigans.

Sony A6500 AF dances circles around EOS M5/M6, Olympus EF-M1 dito, higher end Panasonics as well, [decent] Fuji models are not better but not worse either. 

To me ... I would happily trade DP-AF for 2 more stops DR at base ISO and a "regular" combo AF [on-sensor Phase-AF for speed followed by CD-AF for accuracy].   

privatebydesign

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #174 on: February 10, 2018, 04:08:13 PM »
i find it very funny that folks who claim they greatly prefer optical viewfinders (OVFs) sing the praise of Canon's DP-AF, which is not active at all in OVF operation, and of limited use in Live-View mode only [DSLRs] and EVF-mirrorless cams. :-)

To me, Canon DP-AF is massively overhyped and overrated. No Canon DP-AF equipped camera - DSLRs and mirrorless alike - delivers "best-in class AF performance" ... despite all those DP-AF shenanigans.

Sony A6500 AF dances circles around EOS M5/M6, Olympus EF-M1 dito, higher end Panasonics as well, [decent] Fuji models are not better but not worse either. 

To me ... I would happily trade DP-AF for 2 more stops DR at base ISO and a "regular" combo AF [on-sensor Phase-AF for speed followed by CD-AF for accuracy].

There is less than 1/2 stop of DR difference between all those cameras at base ISO...

Get the camera that suits you best with the features you value most, Canon make what they make, they don't care about you or me so get over it.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

Talys

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #175 on: February 10, 2018, 07:45:21 PM »
i find it very funny that folks who claim they greatly prefer optical viewfinders (OVFs) sing the praise of Canon's DP-AF, which is not active at all in OVF operation, and of limited use in Live-View mode only [DSLRs] and EVF-mirrorless cams. :-)

To me, Canon DP-AF is massively overhyped and overrated. No Canon DP-AF equipped camera - DSLRs and mirrorless alike - delivers "best-in class AF performance" ... despite all those DP-AF shenanigans.

Sony A6500 AF dances circles around EOS M5/M6, Olympus EF-M1 dito, higher end Panasonics as well, [decent] Fuji models are not better but not worse either. 

To me ... I would happily trade DP-AF for 2 more stops DR at base ISO and a "regular" combo AF [on-sensor Phase-AF for speed followed by CD-AF for accuracy].

I vastly prefer OVF and I am a DP booster,  so I guess you mean peeps like me.

I'll keep it simple: use a Nikon, go to live view, and try to take some photos. It is freaking unusable.  Even for stills, it is painful.

Just because 95%+ of my photography is with OVF doesn't mean that I don't appreciate live view and DP the other 5% of the time. One use is tripod, high up, with screen tilted down. Instead of climbing a ladder, I AF with a remote trigger and take the shots.

Or, I might be at an event in a crowd where I have to reach up to take a shot.  DP just WORKS the way live view autofocus should.

9VIII

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #176 on: February 11, 2018, 12:23:51 AM »
i think the situation with Canon is not aptly described by "you can't please all folks". Quite the opposite. It is amazing, how stupidly patient many/most Canon customers are, given Canon's multiple failures on each and every front of camera system development.   :P  ::)

"Mirrorless in general", "FF mirrorless" in particular, not fully competitive sensor tech over the last 10 years, no 4k,  or something less often mentioned: why no Eye-controlled AF system in any of their digital cameras ... and and and ?

All we are and were getting from stupid Canon over the last 10 years - ever since they fell behind tech leaders -
 was an endless stream of always the same, marginally changed mirrorslappers and a bunch of Mk. II, Mk. III, Mk. IV  sh*it ... instead of some really groundbreaking, innovative gear.

DPAF is groundbreaking, everyone else in the industry must be kicking themselves every day over Canon getting full Phase Detect autofocus across the entire sensor when that feature is undoubtedly more valuable than anything that anyone else in the mirrorless space has come up with yet.
If it were their tech Sony would be advertising DPAF as tens of millions of autofocus points trying to use big numbers to inflate their ego, but Sony can’t do that because they aren’t as innovative as Canon.
Canon is industry leading in everything they want to be, they’re the best in the business at making stuff that the most people want to buy.

The failure of Nikon over the last 10 year is twice as noteworthy as any shortcomings Canon has, for the oldest player in the business to be running themselves into the ground over and over (Nikon 1, SnapBridge, KeyMission) has got to be the biggest slice of industry news this century.

Mikehit

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #177 on: February 11, 2018, 04:17:13 PM »


All we are and were getting from stupid Canon over the last 10 years - ever since they fell behind tech leaders -
 was an endless stream of always the same, marginally changed mirrorslappers and a bunch of Mk. II, Mk. III, Mk. IV  sh*it ... instead of some really groundbreaking, innovative gear.

10 years....10 YEARS...??
Canon has been making uncompetitive cameras for 10 YEARS (!!!) and Sony and Nikon have still not replaced them as #1? Jeez, their products must be shite once you look at everything but the sensor.  What on earth have Sony/Nikon been doing to not be able to pick up all those gazillion of new users (you know, the ones with no legacy lenses to hold them back) to fail so miserably to not be number one!!!!  AFTER....10....WHOLE....YEARS....!!!

Outside the sensor the rest of their cameras must be complete cack to blow their obvious and clear superiority.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 04:21:47 PM by Mikehit »

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #177 on: February 11, 2018, 04:17:13 PM »

AvTvM

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #178 on: February 11, 2018, 04:44:16 PM »
as written before: stupid Canon was and is extremely fortunate to have even more stupid competition.
Sony obviously wants to repeat their Betamax experience one more time. And stupid mirrorslapping Nikon hopefully will falter soon. Olympus .. dwarf sensors. Fuji: APS-C and "pseudo"-MF only instead of launching a killer FF mirrorless system... all of it helps Canon to survive despite all their fails and stupidity.

Talys

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #179 on: February 11, 2018, 04:57:25 PM »
as written before: stupid Canon was and is extremely fortunate to have even more stupid competition.
Sony obviously wants to repeat their Betamax experience one more time. And stupid mirrorslapping Nikon hopefully will falter soon. Olympus .. dwarf sensors. Fuji: APS-C and "pseudo"-MF only instead of launching a killer FF mirrorless system... all of it helps Canon to survive despite all their fails and stupidity.

With your brilliance, you should apply for an executive position at one of the camera manufacturers.  Surely then, you could cure them of their stupidity and they would sweep the market.  8)

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Re: Nikon Full Frame Mirrorless to Have New Z Mount
« Reply #179 on: February 11, 2018, 04:57:25 PM »