February 25, 2018, 03:03:19 PM

Author Topic: Canon Sends Invitation to Dealers for Major Mirrorless Presentation Next Month  (Read 19015 times)

Talys

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When Canon makes a 100-400LIII for a full frame sensor that takes a uses a 58mm filter and that's 60% the length of the LII, then the 17mm flange focal distance and the 47mm throat diameter suddenly become pretty awesome. 

A 58mm filter means that the f-number has to be greater than 6.9, and presumably f/8. Do you want a lens that slow and probably with slow AF as well?

I believe you missed the [sarcasm] tag.

Right :) 

@AlanF, in the paragraphs preceding, I had said exactly that -- you can't make the lens significantly shorter and smaller (radius) while keeping the aperture and sensor sizes the same.  I'm on your side.

But let me rephrase it in a non-facetious way: when a camera manufacturer conquers our current limitations grounded in our understanding of physics to make smaller lens packages without any other compromises, I'll be jumping right in on bodies that are ideal for those smaller packages. 

I'm not married to a large body/large lens, and who doesn't like lighter.  But if I'm going to be holding it for a long period of time, I want the most common combinations of things that I hold for a long period of a time to be comfortable.

In the meantime, I think that the more likely scenario is for sensor tech to get better, such that slightly smaller sensors like APSC and MFT can have today's FF performance.  That would allow for APSC EF-M lenses to at least be smaller than today's EF lenses, and be more viable where ISOs need to be higher.  But I also get it, FF will probably likewise improve, and a lot of us will probably still choose the larger camera to get even better high ISO performance.


No. It's just rather a surprising suggestion to have such a narrow aperture, and I am wondering if there is anything behind it.

AlanF, I was referring to some new, as-yet uninvented unicorn that would give us a 100-400 f/4-5.6 for a full frame sensor that was pocket sized.  It was just a facetious/sarcastic way of saying that I don't want to sacrifice aperture or full frame sensor compatibility for lens size; therefore, for me I'm going to be stuck with a big lens/little body any time I want full frame telephoto (or even many wide aperture pro zooms) on a M5/A7RIII type body.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 01:02:17 PM by Talys »

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Orangutan

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I am glad you feel that the size of the M5 is no drawback, but that is not a statement of fact as you seem to make it.  ...

So, apparently - for some of us - the size is a DEFINITE drawback unless using M lenses.

I don't see how anyone can say that adapted lenses feel "great" on an M5.  At best, they're usable, but unnatural. 

I realize you were speaking of your personal experiences, but bear in mind that humans are remarkably good at figuring out how to adapt to their tools (in addition to adapting tools to themselves).  Think about smartphones: to me, they're much too thin and hard to hold; nevertheless, most people like them that way, and I've learned to deal with it.  There are cases, adapters and grips to make them easier to hold.  The manufacturers have decided to make them to the size they thought the majority would want, so that's what we have.

Also think about flash brackets: weren't original flash/lighting units either on separate stands or held by an assistant?  I'm pretty sure I've seen old photos of photographers holding the camera in one hand, and a lighting unit in the other.  This was an ergonomic problem that was solved by a third-party accessory.

With mirrorless cameras the same will happen: at each price/feature point, the camera's ergonomics will fit what the manufacturer believes will sell.  Just as there are cheaper third-party grips for bodies below the 1-series, there may be grips/adapters, etc for mirrorless.  So it doesn't really matter what I want, or what you want, it matters what sells.  After that, we hope for third-party accessories and deal with it.

zim

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If you were was to go to a book shop tomorrow, you could buy a book on grammar.

Sorted that for you Fleetie, well for around there parts anyways  ;)

Don't get all bent out of shape like the new sensor announcement next month  ;D

jolyonralph

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So it doesn't really matter what I want, or what you want, it matters what sells.  After that, we hope for third-party accessories and deal with it.

Finally, some common sense here :)
Jolyon Ralph

Cameras: 5DSR, A7RII, 5D III, EOS M6/M5/M3, Mavic Pro, DXO One.  Oh, and more lenses than I care to count.

The Fat Fish

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Why cut the sensor out of the picture unless there's a surprise awaiting...

Maybe an M6-sized body with the 6D full-frame sensor?

Now *that* I'd buy in an instant (well, assuming there were lenses to go along with it too!)

Using the 6DII sensor would be the worse possible thing they could do. I am looking forward to the Canon FF mirrorless but using the sensor from the most criticised camera of the last decade would be a huge mistake. They need their first FF mirrorless release to be a strong one. They need to say "stick with us" to all those jumping ship because of the latest underwhelming and some outright disappointing releases.

Don Haines

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I found it fun and interesting to experiment with the M5 and lens combos.  Photography is supposed to fun and "going outside the box" is part of it.


I agree! some things work better when you are "outside the box".....

P.S. I saw someone with an Olympus AIR through an adaptor, to a 600F4 lens..... now that just looked WEIRD!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 09:09:50 PM by Don Haines »
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Talys

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I am glad you feel that the size of the M5 is no drawback, but that is not a statement of fact as you seem to make it.  ...

So, apparently - for some of us - the size is a DEFINITE drawback unless using M lenses.

I don't see how anyone can say that adapted lenses feel "great" on an M5.  At best, they're usable, but unnatural. 

I realize you were speaking of your personal experiences, but bear in mind that humans are remarkably good at figuring out how to adapt to their tools (in addition to adapting tools to themselves).  Think about smartphones: to me, they're much too thin and hard to hold; nevertheless, most people like them that way, and I've learned to deal with it.  There are cases, adapters and grips to make them easier to hold.  The manufacturers have decided to make them to the size they thought the majority would want, so that's what we have.

Also think about flash brackets: weren't original flash/lighting units either on separate stands or held by an assistant?  I'm pretty sure I've seen old photos of photographers holding the camera in one hand, and a lighting unit in the other.  This was an ergonomic problem that was solved by a third-party accessory.

With mirrorless cameras the same will happen: at each price/feature point, the camera's ergonomics will fit what the manufacturer believes will sell.  Just as there are cheaper third-party grips for bodies below the 1-series, there may be grips/adapters, etc for mirrorless.  So it doesn't really matter what I want, or what you want, it matters what sells.  After that, we hope for third-party accessories and deal with it.

Absolutely.  So, Canon will decide what they think will sell better: a me-too Canon A7RIII, a mirrorless 5DMkIV, or something in between. 

I think it's worth noting that whenever you look at sidelines at professional sporting events, the number of little camera bodies is zero (and obviously, the number of little camera lenses is zero).   Even at a football game, when you see press photographers reaching out over the crowd to snap some pictures, those second bodies with wider lenses are full sized DSLRs with full sized hotshoe flashes attached.  At major political events, same thing.  I think this is a pretty important demographic for Canon.

Now, I have no idea which way Canon will go; I hope it's ultimately both, though with native EF on both.

Speaking for only myself, if it's not EF native mount, there's no way I'll buy one for at least 5 years -- mostly because of battery life, ergonomics, my dislike of adapters, and the pain of buying new lenses.  So, a camera would have to be way, way better than A7RIII for still image photography to compel me to abandon EF, and at some point, that will happen, I suspect, not so soon.  If it's not large telephoto friendly, as in, if  it isn't comfortable to use with 2kg+ lenses, it's highly unlikely that I buy one until those large telephoto lenses shrink.

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Yasko

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Although new discoveries may happen anytime, the physics of bright lenses is pretty much restrictive.
You need a lot of optical surfaces to reduce optical aberrations for large diameter apertures...
The way to go here might be the introduction of multiple free form surfaces that may be very difficult to be found.
For example in Jena, Germany, at the Beutenberg Campus they are forging a whole optics research branch around the development of free form surfaces for technological purposes (so not really with the common photographer in mind, at least not now). A lot of mathematical research is implied as there is no "do this and then that"-way or straight forward approach to find solutions to free form problems.

There is a way, however, to reduce the length (not the diameter...) of lenses in general while maintaining the f number of a lens, and that is by using microlens arrays. Still there are major technical challenges to it as it's basically a surface technology and implementing surfaces that reduce aberrations is not trivial. Those lens arrays are made with little droplets of synthetic material and their form, as of now, is governed by cohesion forces during melting.
The disadvantage is, that the brightness of the image is maintained by superimposing multiple images (100% overlay) or having a part overlay (>100% overlay).
So you basically trade superior length (less weight and smaller in one dimension) of the optics into largely increased demands on the sensor, as it will have to have an insane pixel density to keep the resolution on par with a standard design. And this will have implications when it comes to Noise. Also at some point the optical performance of these arrays is exhausted.

Else the optical performance is mediocre but as the microlenses have sub mm diameters optical aberrations are reduced pretty much... thats why they still work so well.
A technical advantage is the very high depth of focus... art-wise that is not so welcome I guess. So I dont see a bypass of large and heavy lenses anytime soon. As of now big cameras with good handling and big grips are a future concept.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 01:09:51 AM by Yasko »

ahsanford

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I think it's worth noting that whenever you look at sidelines at professional sporting events, the number of little camera bodies is zero (and obviously, the number of little camera lenses is zero).   Even at a football game, when you see press photographers reaching out over the crowd to snap some pictures, those second bodies with wider lenses are full sized DSLRs with full sized hotshoe flashes attached.  At major political events, same thing.  I think this is a pretty important demographic for Canon.

Agree 100% on sports, but I actually have seen the reportage photogs supporting political figures starting to dabble with Sony rigs. Can't tell which one they are using, of course  ::), but I have to believe that a truly silent shutter (in committee meetings, especially) and a next to zero need for big superwhites has something to do with it.  In theory, in this arena of photography, Sony is far less behind than they are in sports.

(Checks to see what the award winning photo of the assassination of the Russian ambassador in Turkey was taken on... and it was a 5D3.  Just curious.)

- A

xps

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Nice computermodel of "coming/rumored" FF MLS...

https://photorumors.com/2018/01/20/major-canon-mirrorless-camera-announcement-coming-soon/#more-94151

Maybe a part of this rumors come true. I hope so.

The pics were taken from this older site: https://photorumors.com/2012/03/21/canon-mirrorless-camera-concept/
I would like to see an articulated viewfinder or an bigger display  ;) and 1/8000 and and and....
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 04:39:54 AM by xps »

Mikehit

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Nice computermodel of "coming/rumored" FF MLS...

https://photorumors.com/2018/01/20/major-canon-mirrorless-camera-announcement-coming-soon/#more-94151

Maybe a part of this rumors come true. I hope so.

The pics staken from this site

OMG...I hope so. I don't know why but it makes me think of my old Pentax ME Super crossed with a Leica. 

Talys

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I think it's worth noting that whenever you look at sidelines at professional sporting events, the number of little camera bodies is zero (and obviously, the number of little camera lenses is zero).   Even at a football game, when you see press photographers reaching out over the crowd to snap some pictures, those second bodies with wider lenses are full sized DSLRs with full sized hotshoe flashes attached.  At major political events, same thing.  I think this is a pretty important demographic for Canon.

Agree 100% on sports, but I actually have seen the reportage photogs supporting political figures starting to dabble with Sony rigs. Can't tell which one they are using, of course  ::), but I have to believe that a truly silent shutter (in committee meetings, especially) and a next to zero need for big superwhites has something to do with it.  In theory, in this arena of photography, Sony is far less behind than they are in sports.

(Checks to see what the award winning photo of the assassination of the Russian ambassador in Turkey was taken on... and it was a 5D3.  Just curious.)

- A

Just goes to show you the 5D3 is still a great camera :D

This photo is actually good enough to see what kind of cameras the photographers are using, in a Me_Me_Me-era photo (eg within the last year) (UPDATE... ROFL... president orange's name was replaced with Me_Me_Me by the forum... I LOVE IT).  You're right, there's one at the bottom with a Sony!  Nearly all of the cameras that are being used are Canons, with interesting choices for second cameras they have on their neck.


http://www.trbimg.com/img-59441760/turbine/la-butow-on-senate-hearings-20170616-004/1200

Another thing that you can see is that with professional press photographers/videographers, size and weight are just not at the priority when it comes to what they use, even when the subject is as close as they could possibly be:


http://www.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000zlvM.z6J6uc/s/950/632/201311060024.jpg

Isaacheus

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I think it's worth noting that whenever you look at sidelines at professional sporting events, the number of little camera bodies is zero (and obviously, the number of little camera lenses is zero).   Even at a football game, when you see press photographers reaching out over the crowd to snap some pictures, those second bodies with wider lenses are full sized DSLRs with full sized hotshoe flashes attached.  At major political events, same thing.  I think this is a pretty important demographic for Canon.

Agree 100% on sports, but I actually have seen the reportage photogs supporting political figures starting to dabble with Sony rigs. Can't tell which one they are using, of course  ::), but I have to believe that a truly silent shutter (in committee meetings, especially) and a next to zero need for big superwhites has something to do with it.  In theory, in this arena of photography, Sony is far less behind than they are in sports.

(Checks to see what the award winning photo of the assassination of the Russian ambassador in Turkey was taken on... and it was a 5D3.  Just curious.)

- A

Just goes to show you the 5D3 is still a great camera :D

This photo is actually good enough to see what kind of cameras the photographers are using, in a Me_Me_Me-era photo (eg within the last year) (UPDATE... ROFL... president orange's name was replaced with Me_Me_Me by the forum... I LOVE IT).  You're right, there's one at the bottom with a Sony!  Nearly all of the cameras that are being used are Canons, with interesting choices for second cameras they have on their neck.


http://www.trbimg.com/img-59441760/turbine/la-butow-on-senate-hearings-20170616-004/1200

Another thing that you can see is that with professional press photographers/videographers, size and weight are just not at the priority when it comes to what they use, even when the subject is as close as they could possibly be:


http://www.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000zlvM.z6J6uc/s/950/632/201311060024.jpg

As a bit of an aside,  the guy at the front of the first photo is pretty much why I wish Canon would put a flip screen on the 5d line, even a tilting.

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bwud

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I think it's worth noting that whenever you look at sidelines at professional sporting events, the number of little camera bodies is zero (and obviously, the number of little camera lenses is zero).   Even at a football game, when you see press photographers reaching out over the crowd to snap some pictures, those second bodies with wider lenses are full sized DSLRs with full sized hotshoe flashes attached.  At major political events, same thing.  I think this is a pretty important demographic for Canon.

Agree 100% on sports, but I actually have seen the reportage photogs supporting political figures starting to dabble with Sony rigs. Can't tell which one they are using, of course  ::), but I have to believe that a truly silent shutter (in committee meetings, especially) and a next to zero need for big superwhites has something to do with it.  In theory, in this arena of photography, Sony is far less behind than they are in sports.

(Checks to see what the award winning photo of the assassination of the Russian ambassador in Turkey was taken on... and it was a 5D3.  Just curious.)

- A

Just goes to show you the 5D3 is still a great camera :D

This photo is actually good enough to see what kind of cameras the photographers are using, in a Me_Me_Me-era photo (eg within the last year) (UPDATE... ROFL... president orange's name was replaced with Me_Me_Me by the forum... I LOVE IT).  You're right, there's one at the bottom with a Sony!  Nearly all of the cameras that are being used are Canons, with interesting choices for second cameras they have on their neck.


http://www.trbimg.com/img-59441760/turbine/la-butow-on-senate-hearings-20170616-004/1200

Another thing that you can see is that with professional press photographers/videographers, size and weight are just not at the priority when it comes to what they use, even when the subject is as close as they could possibly be:


http://www.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000zlvM.z6J6uc/s/950/632/201311060024.jpg

As a bit of an aside,  the guy at the front of the first photo is pretty much why I wish Canon would put a flip screen on the 5d line, even a tilting.

But really, what a silly thing. Nobody needs that many photos of a press conference, much less someone putting a nameplate down.

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