February 23, 2018, 07:35:14 PM

Author Topic: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]  (Read 11494 times)

exquisitor

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2018, 07:46:09 AM »
I am curious, what the three Rebels will be and how they will differentiate. Two of them are probably going to be direct successors of 800D and 77D. But the third one? Will it be more video oriented with 4K?

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2018, 07:46:09 AM »

Sharlin

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2018, 07:57:09 AM »
The one thing that I'm looking for that would make me buy this is visibly better higher ISO performance.  If it can be as clean as a 6DII at least at ISO 800, I'll seriously consider it.  If it's as clean at 1200-1600, I'll buy it in an instant.  Maybe this will happen with a new sensor; don't know.

Unfortunately this is impossible. Even the best of the best APS-C sensors from Sony and Nikon cannot come close to a full frame sensor. Do not expect that much difference in APS-C sensor performance for at least another 10 years, maybe more... the difference is that big.

Sensors are already less than one stop away from theoretical 100% efficiency at mid to high ISO values. The diminishing returns are evident when considering eg. these DR charts. I added the Nikon D7200 as a reference; its DR curve is very close to optimal.

unfocused

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2018, 08:33:30 AM »
The one thing that I'm looking for that would make me buy this is visibly better higher ISO performance...

Unfortunately this is impossible. Even the best of the best APS-C sensors from Sony and Nikon cannot come close to a full frame sensor. Do not expect that much difference in APS-C sensor performance for at least another 10 years, maybe more... the difference is that big.

Sensors are already less than one stop away from theoretical 100% efficiency at mid to high ISO values. The diminishing returns are evident when considering eg. these DR charts. I added the Nikon D7200 as a reference; its DR curve is very close to optimal.

Excuse my ignorance, but are dynamic range and noise interchangeable? Can a sensor have better noise control without having more dynamic range? I'm unconcerned about dynamic range, but I would like cleaner files.

zim

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2018, 08:54:49 AM »
+ 1 for improved noise at mid-high iso, more DR great if it's there but meh otherwise.

For me the biggest dissapointment is no 7D3 in 2018 I don't hold out any hope on that 20% of doubt.
I'll make do with what I've got and if neccessary rent, quite fancy having an excuse to try a 5D4 actually :)

The Fat Fish

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2018, 09:02:33 AM »
"There is no mention of the mythical “4K” capability and we don’t want to guess either way"

They'd be the laughing stock of the industry if they didn't. Back when the 80D was released there were already complaints at the lack of 4K as the Sony and Nikons at the time offered it. The 80D was just enough of a camera to get away with it but in 2018 that isn't going to do.

Canon HAVE to break this streak of negative coverage (5DIV video and 6DII).

davidcl0nel

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2018, 09:17:15 AM »

7D lasted 5 years, 7D MkII should be replaced in Q4 2019
5D MkIII lasted 4.5 years, 5DS should be replaced in Q4 2019


And 1DX II the same...
I think all 3 (7D3, 5D5, 1DX 3) professional comes late 2019 or Spring 2020, just before "their" Olympic Games in 2020 in Tokyo.

mistaspeedy

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2018, 09:39:38 AM »
Excuse my ignorance, but are dynamic range and noise interchangeable? Can a sensor have better noise control without having more dynamic range? I'm unconcerned about dynamic range, but I would like cleaner files.

To answer your questions...
1) Dynamic range and noise (SNR) are NOT interchangeable.
2) Yes. A good example is 6D mark II vs 80D. The 6D mark II gives much cleaner files (SNR) than the 80D at all ISO levels due to the much bigger full frame sensor. At ISO 100 and ISO 200, the 80D has much better dynamic range. (They are nearly the same at ISO 400, and beyond that the 6D mark II is better.)

Let's say you take a side by side image from both cameras at ISO 100...  the daytime sky will have less noise on the 6D mark II, but if you want to brighten the shadows a lot during editing, the 80D will be cleaner in those shadow areas (yet simultaneously have more noise in the sky).

If you take an image and look at the highlights and midtones (everything besides the deep shadows), and evaluate the noise... you are looking at the 'noise' or SNR (signal to noise ratio).
Looking at the noise in deep shadows is talking about dynamic range.

These two metrics are measured separately in DXOmark's tests for a reason.

Many people seem to think that the 6D mark II's sensor is worse in every way than the original 6D, when it is just the dynamic range that has fallen a little bit.
Resolution, SNR, tonal range and color sensitivity have all taken a step forward, especially at ISO 100.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 09:45:57 AM by mistaspeedy »
Canon 1D mark II, Canon 50mm F1.4, Tamron 28-75 F2.8

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2018, 09:39:38 AM »

privatebydesign

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2018, 09:51:38 AM »
Canon HAVE to break this streak of negative coverage (5DIV video and 6DII).

It depends where you get your news from, if its YouTube then the 6D MkII is the new wonder child of achievable vlogging. All the big boys and many up and comers are saying how great it is and how it is the ultimate current vlogging camera.

The 5D MkIV is widely accepted as the best all round ff camera in the world. Seen any press conferences lately? Over 90% of photographers (by visual reference) are using 5D MkIII/IV's, they are used at thousands of weddings every weekend for both stills and video, portrait studios love them too, people like Peter Hurley and Sue Bryce keep the interest and profile of the camera pretty high.

If you look under rocks for your 'news' you will find snakes. If you look at photographers you will find Canon's.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

exquisitor

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2018, 10:24:35 AM »
I love my 80D -- it's easily my favorite camera.  It literally has everything I want from a camera for most purposes, including size, EXCEPT that the sensor has too much noise for my taste on most photos shot at higher ISOs.

The one thing that I'm looking for that would make me buy this is visibly better higher ISO performance.  If it can be as clean as a 6DII at least at ISO 800, I'll seriously consider it.  If it's as clean at 1200-1600, I'll buy it in an instant.  Maybe this will happen with a new sensor; don't know.

As mistaspeedy already mentioned this is not going to happen. But it would be nice if 90D would be on par with the current 24 MP Sony sensor at high ISO.

mkabi

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2018, 10:30:18 AM »
"There is no mention of the mythical “4K” capability and we don’t want to guess either way"

They'd be the laughing stock of the industry if they didn't. Back when the 80D was released there were already complaints at the lack of 4K as the Sony and Nikons at the time offered it. The 80D was just enough of a camera to get away with it but in 2018 that isn't going to do.

Canon HAVE to break this streak of negative coverage (5DIV video and 6DII).

Don't wait, start laughing now....

And, at this point, I honestly don't think 4K will be available in the 90D...

Don't get me wrong, there is an obvious demand for it, although this forum doesn't think so... I'm sure that Canon wants to offer it too, but they can't... may be it is to protect their higher end cams or cinema cams... but I have another theory and that is that they don't know how to... Reason: its this ridiculous codec - MJPEG - that does 500mbps for 4K/24fps & 800mbps for 4K/60fps... Its great for IQ & color correction, but storage is a nightmare. So, the question is, can they be using this codec with their current SD interface?

Its also a big possibility that they bought the older SD interface in bulk, and want to get rid of them as much as possible before moving on.... remember how they had a bunch of 18MP sensors and they put them in everything from the 7D to the SL1.
Bah...

Sharlin

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2018, 12:30:46 PM »
Excuse my ignorance, but are dynamic range and noise interchangeable? Can a sensor have better noise control without having more dynamic range? I'm unconcerned about dynamic range, but I would like cleaner files.

Not exactly, but close enough if you keep sensor size fixed. Dynamic range in a camera sensor is capped from the top by photosite well capacity (hard cap; the sensor just saturates and no extra information beyond that can be recovered because there isn't any) and from the bottom the noise floor (soft cap; the weaker the signal you're trying to recover the more you amplify noise as well, resulting in lower and lower signal/noise ratio).

At medium to high ISOs nowadays, the noise component of sensor signal is entirely dominated by photon shot noise: the statistical variation expected simply because photons are discrete packets of energy randomly hitting the sensor. The weaker the signal to be amplified, the fewer photons and more random the pattern. The only way to improve that is to gather more photons. This means either using a lower ISO and a longer exposure time (or a bigger aperture), using a larger sensor with larger photosites (or more of them so their signal can be averaged), or making the sensor more effective at gathering light.

If we want to keep exposure and sensor size fixed, the last one is our only option. Not all of the sensor surface is light-sensitive; around every individual photosite there has to be room for wiring and support structure. The photodiode:scaffolding ratio has climbed over the years, but there's a natural cap so diminishing returns are inevitable. Light-focusing microlenses and, more recently, back-side illuminated sensors are some of the ways the effective light-sensitive surface area has been improved.

Most digital cameras utilize Bayer filters over monochrome CMOS sensors to allow color information to be recorded. The color matrix necessarily blocks some of the light as each Bayer cell filters out perfectly good photons that just happen to have a wrong wavelength. Improvements here are based on coming up with dyes that are optimally transparent to photons of the "right" wavelength range. Or you can of course opt to rid of the color filter altogether (see Leica Monochrom and many astro cameras).

Even of those photons that are lucky enough to hit a photodiode, not 100% can be converted to useful signal. The quantum efficiency of a modern CMOS photodiode is somewhere between 50 and 90 percent, depending on wavelength. CCD sensors can have high (~90%) quantum efficiencies which is why they're popular in astro imaging.

Adding all of this up, state-of-the-art sensors are already well over 50% efficient at converting photons exiting the lens to useful signal. So there's less than one stop of improvement possible even in theory, and returns are definitely diminishing.

CosminD

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2018, 05:29:25 PM »

The 5D MkIV is widely accepted as the best all round ff camera in the world.

 You probably haven't seen the Nikon D850  :)

privatebydesign

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2018, 05:46:42 PM »

The 5D MkIV is widely accepted as the best all round ff camera in the world.

 You probably haven't seen the Nikon D850  :)

Seen it and used it and agree with many others, I just don't need or want that many pixels all the time.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2018, 05:46:42 PM »

Talys

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2018, 06:42:56 PM »
I love my 80D -- it's easily my favorite camera.  It literally has everything I want from a camera for most purposes, including size, EXCEPT that the sensor has too much noise for my taste on most photos shot at higher ISOs.

The one thing that I'm looking for that would make me buy this is visibly better higher ISO performance.  If it can be as clean as a 6DII at least at ISO 800, I'll seriously consider it.  If it's as clean at 1200-1600, I'll buy it in an instant.  Maybe this will happen with a new sensor; don't know.

As mistaspeedy already mentioned this is not going to happen. But it would be nice if 90D would be on par with the current 24 MP Sony sensor at high ISO.

Why is it impossible for Canon to make an APSC sensor superior to Sony?

HaroldC3

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2018, 10:27:12 PM »
Where do they go after the 90D?  I'm really surprised they made it to 90D from 10D.

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Re: The Canon EOS 90D is Coming Later in 2018 [CR2]
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2018, 10:27:12 PM »