February 19, 2018, 11:28:08 PM

Author Topic: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]  (Read 8788 times)

dak723

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #75 on: February 05, 2018, 01:06:34 PM »
The second prime lens in 2 1/2 years for the EF-M mount. It doesn't look like Canon have any intention of creating a set of prime lenses for the M series cameras, at least, not anytime soon.

I think it is pretty simple.  Will enough folks who own APS-C cameras - and especially the M5 - buy enough primes to make it worthwhile for Canon to make them?  Since we haven't seen too much more than the standard zooms for EF-S, it seems that they already have that info - and the answer is no.  I think there are a lot of folks like me - I haven't used a prime since my Olympus OM-1 was replaced by a Canon SLR in the mid 1990's.  I have no interest whatsoever in getting a prime.  The zoom lenses cover everything and do everything that I ever need.  My guess is that the majority of folks who use crop cameras feel the same way (Canon rumors users are the exception).  Their sales info and marketing research must tell them that primes are primarily for FF camera owners.

Pretty much that.  A know a fair number of people who are "lite hobbyists" -- they buy a MILC or a DSLR, but really just use kit zooms and are quite happy with that.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with that market, and I'm not trying to be derogatory or elitist, or anything like that -- but even if they get talked into buying an inexpensive prime, like a 50/1.8STM, they never use it.

It is not just "lite hobbyists" who use zooms and have no interest in primes.  I would consider myself a "serious
hobbyist" who sells some of his photos.  Since I shoot primarily landscapes, I have no need for fast lenses and it is far more important to get the composition right, so zooms are the way to go for me.  And clearly, many others as well.  I would be very surprised if Canon didn't have a lot of data on which market buys primes, and my guess it would be mostly FF users.  If the data indicated that APS-C users would buy primes, I think we would have seen many more EF-S primes since that mount came out.

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #75 on: February 05, 2018, 01:06:34 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #76 on: February 05, 2018, 01:21:41 PM »
It is not just "lite hobbyists" who use zooms and have no interest in primes.  I would consider myself a "serious
hobbyist" who sells some of his photos.  Since I shoot primarily landscapes, I have no need for fast lenses and it is far more important to get the composition right, so zooms are the way to go for me.  And clearly, many others as well.  I would be very surprised if Canon didn't have a lot of data on which market buys primes, and my guess it would be mostly FF users.  If the data indicated that APS-C users would buy primes, I think we would have seen many more EF-S primes since that mount came out.

Sure, but what confounds this is that there is a staggering spread of FF glass that also bolts on these EF-S bodies.  So Canon has a very profitable reason not to offer these in crop -- they could sell more EF lenses and possibly nick some folks to migrate up to FF.

In other words, primes might be a huge hit for EF-S and EF-M users and we'd never know -- because the primes they are using are EF.

So I recommend looking to Fuji for a moment for a slice of alternate reality on what Canon might have done.  In the absence of an FF platform behind it, what did Fuji do?  They went all-in on crop and put out a boatload of fast primes.  EF-S/EF-M body owners would looooooove even a small slice of purpose-built-for-crop primes like that.

- A

rrcphoto

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #77 on: February 05, 2018, 01:39:05 PM »
So I recommend looking to Fuji for a moment for a slice of alternate reality on what Canon might have done.  In the absence of an FF platform behind it, what did Fuji do?  They went all-in on crop and put out a boatload of fast primes.  EF-S/EF-M body owners would looooooove even a small slice of purpose-built-for-crop primes like that.

to be quite honest, maybe some EF-S/EF-M owners would love that.

Me? to be perfectly honest - outside of an estoric ultra fast ultra wide prime for astro-landscape, I have zero use for specific primes as most of my images with the M are landscape, travel, and if I want to throw out the background on an image, most times the .33x magnification on every EF-M lens will take care of the background nicely.

as it is with 4K there's a tiny vocal group that shouts from the rooftops about necessities, but the silent majority simply uses what they have - which is usually a zoom.

neuroanatomist

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #78 on: February 05, 2018, 02:44:56 PM »
...what did Fuji do?  They went all-in on crop and put out a boatload of fast primes.  EF-S/EF-M body owners would looooooove even a small slice of purpose-built-for-crop primes like that.

What fraction of the overall EF-S/EF-M market do you believe would looooooove such lenses enough to actually buy them? 
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ahsanford

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #79 on: February 05, 2018, 04:02:47 PM »
...what did Fuji do?  They went all-in on crop and put out a boatload of fast primes.  EF-S/EF-M body owners would looooooove even a small slice of purpose-built-for-crop primes like that.

What fraction of the overall EF-S/EF-M market do you believe would looooooove such lenses enough to actually buy them?

Goodness, I don't mean gen pop soccer moms and hockey dads, I mean 'we, the enthusiasts of the world'.  No idea if it would make a return on the investment for Canon.

- A

BillB

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #80 on: February 05, 2018, 04:29:24 PM »
...what did Fuji do?  They went all-in on crop and put out a boatload of fast primes.  EF-S/EF-M body owners would looooooove even a small slice of purpose-built-for-crop primes like that.

What fraction of the overall EF-S/EF-M market do you believe would looooooove such lenses enough to actually buy them?

Using B&H prices, my back of the envelope figuring shows that all the 14 listed Fuji primes cost $400 or more (all prices rounded to the nearest dollar), while only one of the 7 EF-M lenses available at the Canon Store costs more than $400.  Half of the Fuji  priimes cost  $900  or more.  Fuji is clearly trying to sell at a price point that Canon does not reach with any of its aps-c lenses.

The Canon Store lists 7 standard EF-S zooms priced between $500 and $880, along with the 10-22 for $600, so the highest priced Canon aps-c lenses are EF-S zooms.  Even so, half of the Fuji primes cost more than any EF-S or EF-M lens.  In fact, half the  Fuji primes are at price points higher than most non-L Canon fullframe glass, prime or zoom.


brad-man

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #81 on: February 05, 2018, 04:39:09 PM »
No need to fight. Canon won't be releasing "top tiered pro level" M primes anytime soon. Some EF-Ms along the lines of the 24, 28 & 35 IS series would be more than sufficient.

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #81 on: February 05, 2018, 04:39:09 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #82 on: February 05, 2018, 04:48:04 PM »
Using B&H prices, my back of the envelope figuring shows that all the 14 listed Fuji primes cost $400 or more (all prices rounded to the nearest dollar), while only one of the 7 EF-M lenses available at the Canon Store costs more than $400.  Half of the Fuji  priimes cost  $900  or more.  Fuji is clearly trying to sell at a price point that Canon does not reach with any of its aps-c lenses.

The Canon Store lists 7 standard EF-S zooms priced between $500 and $880, along with the 10-22 for $600, so the highest priced Canon aps-c lenses are EF-S zooms.  Even so, half of the Fuji primes cost more than any EF-S or EF-M lens.  In fact, half the  Fuji primes are at price points higher than most non-L Canon fullframe glass, prime or zoom.

Fuji's volumes are much lower, and in fairness to them, some of those lenses are more of an L spec than a non-L spec.  But yes, it's somewhat of a boutique brand and it comes with prices to match. 

Again, I'm not saying (a) Fuji did it so Canon should or (b) Canon will make lots of money doing this.  I'm just saying Fuji doing it is somewhat logical given that there isn't FF portfolio of glass sitting above the X mount in the lineup like it does for EF vs. EF-S / EF-M.

But I've heard the refrain often here:  'I want fast(er) primes for crop.'  Fuji offers that.  That's all.

- A

ahsanford

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #83 on: February 05, 2018, 04:49:24 PM »
No need to fight. Canon won't be releasing "top tiered pro level" M primes anytime soon. Some EF-Ms along the lines of the 24, 28 & 35 IS series would be more than sufficient.

If by 'along the lines' you don't mind focus by wire...  We still haven't seen a Ring USM EF-M lens yet.

But sure, those three are great lenses.

- A

brad-man

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #84 on: February 05, 2018, 05:14:47 PM »
No need to fight. Canon won't be releasing "top tiered pro level" M primes anytime soon. Some EF-Ms along the lines of the 24, 28 & 35 IS series would be more than sufficient.

If by 'along the lines' you don't mind focus by wire...  We still haven't seen a Ring USM EF-M lens yet.

But sure, those three are great lenses.

- A

Even after all of your exasperation over a certain focal length, you remain the eternal optimist ;)

ahsanford

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #85 on: February 05, 2018, 05:24:23 PM »
Even after all of your exasperation over a certain focal length, you remain the eternal optimist ;)

Ha, forever the realist -- that's me.   :D

I'm just saying:

Last EF 'non-premium' (non-L / non-DO) lens with Ring USM = 2012
Last EF-S lens with Ring USM = 2009
Last EF-M lens with Ring USM = still waiting; it's never happened

We can read this two ways:

  • Smooth AF for video that STM and Nano USM delivers is really nice, or...

  • A feature that was standard on lenses 20+ years ago on affordable mid-grade non-L lenses (28 1.8, 85 1.8, etc.) is no longer available to us unless we want to pony up the bucks for L glass.  Because profit margins.

Spoiler alert: I'm in the latter group.  I have a hard time squaring up the demise of affordable ring USM / mechanically override-able lenses as anything other than a takeaway by Canon.

- A

ahsanford

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #86 on: February 05, 2018, 06:17:41 PM »
Or perhaps unpacking this a different way:

Early 90s:

Canon: "Ring USM is the jam, it's amazing."
Us: "Okay, can we have that in affordable non-L lenses?"
Canon:  "Here ya go!"
Us:  "Score."

2012 - Present:

Canon: "Check out this hot new STM stuff!  Way better for video!"
Us:  "Cool, but this is just an AF upgrade to the budget super-cheapo lenses, right?"
Canon:  "No no, it's great for stills and video."
Us:  "Oh, so it's an upgrade to Ring USM for stills people?"
Canon:  "Sort of.  Video AF is way better, but it's slower focusing and you can no longer mechanically override your AF."
Us:  "Wow, that's pretty harsh actually.  I think I'll wait for new Ring USM lenses."
Canon:  "That's, um, going to be a while."
Us:  "Whoa, you are taking Ring USM away?!"
Canon:  "Oh no no, new Ring USM will still be released.  In future L and DO lenses only."
Us:  "Wait, new mid-grade EF lenses won't have Ring USM anymore?"
Canon:  "Trust me, you'll love STM.  Meet your new 24-105 f/3.5-5.6 IS STM lens!  Ain't she a beaut?"
Us: "Why?  Didn't we use to have a mid-level 28-135 Ring USM lens?"
Canon:  "Sure, but this STM one is way better!"
Us:  "Really?  If STM is so great, I presume future L lenses will come with STM now?"
Canon: "Don't be silly, premium lenses get premium AF tech - L lenses will continue to have Ring USM!"
Us:  "Ah, so Ring USM, something you've been *somehow* able to deliver to us in a middle price point for 20 years is now only reserved for the best lenses that cost a great deal more?  Why can't mid-level lenses have Ring USM anymore?  Isn't this quite literally a takeaway for stills shooters?"
Canon:  "No no -- STM is so awesome!"
 . . .
Us:  [Resigned to sadness]  "So you are totally not making more lenses like the 24/28/35 IS primes, are you?"
Canon:  [Acts like I did not ask that question and leaves the room]

Canon in 2016 - Present

[Repeat the 2012 - Present, but just replace STM with Nano USM.]

- A

AvTvM

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #87 on: February 09, 2018, 04:44:17 AM »
So I recommend looking to Fuji for a moment for a slice of alternate reality on what Canon might have done.  In the absence of an FF platform behind it, what did Fuji do?  They went all-in on crop and put out a boatload of fast primes.  EF-S/EF-M body owners would looooooove even a small slice of purpose-built-for-crop primes like that.

yes, look at stupid Fuji. Their decisions to
1. NOT offer FF mirrorless
2. offer APS-C stuff priced pretty much like Canon FF gear
3. offer a wide range of more or less fast and exotic prime lenses which are all way too big and way too expensive ...
4. use all retro design on it with mono-functional control points instead of a compelling "digital" user interface

are the very reasons WHY Fuji is and will forever be stuck at less than 3% market share. Good on them. Stupid Canon is extremely fortunate that their competition - namely Fuji - is acting even more stupidly. 

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #87 on: February 09, 2018, 04:44:17 AM »

BillB

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #88 on: February 09, 2018, 07:23:19 AM »
So I recommend looking to Fuji for a moment for a slice of alternate reality on what Canon might have done.  In the absence of an FF platform behind it, what did Fuji do?  They went all-in on crop and put out a boatload of fast primes.  EF-S/EF-M body owners would looooooove even a small slice of purpose-built-for-crop primes like that.

yes, look at stupid Fuji. Their decisions to
1. NOT offer FF mirrorless
2. offer APS-C stuff priced pretty much like Canon FF gear
3. offer a wide range of more or less fast and exotic prime lenses which are all way too big and way too expensive ...
4. use all retro design on it with mono-functional control points instead of a compelling "digital" user interface

are the very reasons WHY Fuji is and will forever be stuck at less than 3% market share. Good on them. Stupid Canon is extremely fortunate that their competition - namely Fuji - is acting even more stupidly.

How do you end up with a little money selling a many different crop primes at boutique prices?  Answer: It's easy if you start out with a lot of money.

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #88 on: February 09, 2018, 07:23:19 AM »