June 20, 2018, 04:27:15 AM

Author Topic: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic  (Read 18219 times)

Talys

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2018, 02:16:27 PM »

Several years ago many people didn't buy new cameras to achieve some specific photographic task, but as a status symbol (just read neuroanatomist's postings constantly writing about his white superteles), as something to be shown off ("Look at my new 5DII sooo much detail", "OMG my 100-400 L IS II is soooo uber sharp!" or whatever).

This is something I don't see anymore, nobody runs around showing off their 5DIV/1DX/77D with hyper swivel. People used to take snaps with their smart phones "I know it's crappy but sadly I forgot to bring my DSLR", now they use it almost defiantly "nope, I am not going to lug around 2 kg of camera equipment".

New DSLRs seem to have completely lost their magic with Joe/Jane Shmoe, and LensVid's numbers clearly show this.

I surely hope that Canon and Nikon do not design their cameras around the type of person that you're describing.

Cameras should be designed around the needs of people who want to advance their photography; to create better images, do things previously difficult or impossible, or to make real tasks more convenient or efficient.  Professional cameras shouldn't be consolation prizes for people who can't afford a nice house, supercar, Learjet, or whatever.

I will also point out that in most parts of the world, cameras are nearly the lamest status symbol I can imagine.  Someone who isn't an enthusiast could care less about whether you had an A7R3 or a A7.

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2018, 02:16:27 PM »

Rudeofus

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2018, 07:52:20 AM »
Smacks of envy to me - someone who can't afford the to gear and tries to rationalise other people being able to.
You've got to be kidding me. In the grand scheme of things these white super teles are not that expensive, see what people spend on cars, motorcycles, houses/flats. In addition, these white lenses retain their value much better than most other status symbols, and rarely incur running costs like property tax, maintenance or fuel.

Owning one of these lenses is not a sign of wealth in my neck of the wood, it's just a sign, that you are inclined to spend your money on photographic items. For most folks, and this includes the photographically inclined ones here, a 500/600 F/4 is a solution desperately looking for a problem, that's why you won't see them often.

Why do you think this has changed? Has the introduction of mirrorless resulted in a sudden change of photographic gestalt from status symbols to wanting to take pictures?
Of course, we never hear mirrorless Sony owners crowing about their superior dynamic range and their instant focussing do we?
Photographic items went from "look at my gadget ZOMG I AM TEH COOLZ" to "I brought my cam along because it gives better quality images" all the way to "I am not lugging this weight around, my 5DIII remains at home and I'll bring my mirrorless".

Folks really don't give a crap anymore about dynamic range or AF speed. In my fotoclub, where 1Dx users rubbed against 5DIII users just a few years ago, now the same members bring in mirror less or Olympus DSLR cameras and go "oh so small!".

I never saw anyone do that. Not even with a 77D (really??). I saw popoel paying top dollar for a camera to do a specific job, but of course if yo are happy with the picture of an eagle in flight taken with a 60D and 70-300 USM kit lens then I am genuinely happy for you.
If only those bought a 5DII/III who needed it for their job, neither of us would be able to afford one. Selling the same design to 1.000 photographers who really need it and to 10.000.000 who just want it because it's cool - that's what makes these cameras and lenses affordable to everyone.

New DSLRs seem to have completely lost their magic with Joe/Jane Shmoe, and LensVid's numbers clearly show this.

I surely hope that Canon and Nikon do not design their cameras around the type of person that you're describing.
They absolutely have to, see my above comment. Economy of scales ...

Do you really believe, that there was an honest photographic need for 7.5 million dSLR cameras last year?

Mikehit

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2018, 08:30:09 AM »
Smacks of envy to me - someone who can't afford the to gear and tries to rationalise other people being able to.
You've got to be kidding me. In the grand scheme of things these white super teles are not that expensive, see what people spend on cars, motorcycles, houses/flats. In addition, these white lenses retain their value much better than most other status symbols, and rarely incur running costs like property tax, maintenance or fuel.
....


Well now you have me confused because you said people buy big whites to brag

Quote
Several years ago many people didn't buy new cameras to achieve some specific photographic task, but as a status symbol (just read neuroanatomist's postings constantly writing about his white superteles), as something to be shown off ("Look at my new 5DII sooo much detail", "OMG my 100-400 L IS II is soooo uber sharp!" or whatever)

Now you seem to be agreeing they bought them to do a job. What exactly is your point?

Rudeofus

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2018, 09:35:13 AM »
Well now you have me confused because you said people buy big whites to brag
They used to do this, but this trend is going down - as shown by Lensvid's charts.

Quote
Several years ago many people didn't buy new cameras to achieve some specific photographic task, but as a status symbol (just read neuroanatomist's postings constantly writing about his white superteles), as something to be shown off ("Look at my new 5DII sooo much detail", "OMG my 100-400 L IS II is soooo uber sharp!" or whatever)
Now you seem to be agreeing they bought them to do a job. What exactly is your point?
[/quote]
Those people, who buy photographic equipment to fill a photographic need, are a small minority, and these folks won't sustain the production numbers to keep prices where they are right now. Canon/Nikon/Sony can't sustain their business model (in the photography sector), if the "gotta have its" leave the market.

neuroanatomist

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2018, 10:23:55 AM »
Well now you have me confused because you said people buy big whites to brag
They used to do this, but this trend is going down - as shown by Lensvid's charts.

Sorry, I must have missed where LensVid plotted the data for the big white lenses.  Can you point that out on their graphic?  And since their infographic is based on CIPA data, can you also point out the CIPA data on production/shipments of specific classes of lenses?

Or are you just talking out of your nether orifice?
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Mikehit

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2018, 10:24:59 AM »
Well now you have me confused because you said people buy big whites to brag
They used to do this, but this trend is going down - as shown by Lensvid's charts.

Quote
Several years ago many people didn't buy new cameras to achieve some specific photographic task, but as a status symbol (just read neuroanatomist's postings constantly writing about his white superteles), as something to be shown off ("Look at my new 5DII sooo much detail", "OMG my 100-400 L IS II is soooo uber sharp!" or whatever)
Now you seem to be agreeing they bought them to do a job. What exactly is your point?

Those people, who buy photographic equipment to fill a photographic need, are a small minority, and these folks won't sustain the production numbers to keep prices where they are right now. Canon/Nikon/Sony can't sustain their business model (in the photography sector), if the "gotta have its" leave the market.


Really? Your theory on dropping sales is because people used to buy gear to brag about it but don't anymore?
Have you any evidence that those people who used to buy big whites to brag are now going to micro fourthirds and Sony with their smaller lenses?

old-pr-pix

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2018, 11:18:59 AM »
Some numbers to consider...  In the US there are roughly 152,000 working photographers according to on-line statistics.  Just over half are self-employed and about a quarter are 'underemployed'  (i.e. perhaps they shoot part-time, 10-15 weddings a year).  If every working pro buys a new body every other year that only accounts for 75,000 bodies a year.

On the other hand CIPA lists 2.9 million ILC bodies for the Americas for 2017 (guess 50% to US?).  That must be almost entirely enthusiasts and general consumers -pros being a small percentage.  Likewise, CIPA shows 2/3's of all lenses shipped are for APS-C and smaller formats.  And, the average number of lenses per body is 1.6 to 1.7, so again most buyers are getting crop cameras and maybe a second lens.

The number of folks who practice photography in the US - pros, hobbyists, soccer mom's, etc. all combined - has dropped from 59.6 million in 2011 to 40.8 million in 2017.  No indication why?  People trying it and losing interest?

Look at the shelf space big box retailers allow for cameras... it has definitely shrunk.  Sales guy at the local pro shop told me directly that he wished Canon would come out with something new - 'we need something exciting we can sell to justify the large inventory Canon makes us carry.'
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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2018, 11:18:59 AM »

Rudeofus

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2018, 12:11:21 PM »
Sorry, I must have missed where LensVid plotted the data for the big white lenses.  Can you point that out on their graphic?  And since their infographic is based on CIPA data, can you also point out the CIPA data on production/shipments of specific classes of lenses?

Or are you just talking out of your nether orifice?
Dealing with orifices of all kinds (whatever "nether orifice" may be) is your job, I am an engineer, and therefore used to derive data from given data sets. I have seen many kinds of equipment, starting from 8x10" film cameras to just about anything dSLR and now, more recently, mirrorless cameras, but I have so far not seen too many mirrorless cameras attached to big supertelephoto lenses. I also observe the general trend towards noticeably  smaller camera systems (medium format ---> 5Ds, 5DIII ---> Olympus, 70D/7D ---> Samsung/Olympus/Panasonic), also a good indicator that long superteles lost some popularity.

A second source of my assertion, that visibly expensive lenses sort of lost their magic is direct observation in my photo club with its 200+ active members, including myself for 8+ years. You simply don't see these much any longer, especially new ones, when one used to see a member with an expensive new dSLR or lens quite often some years ago.

Really? Your theory on dropping sales is because people used to buy gear to brag about it but don't anymore?
Have you any evidence that those people who used to buy big whites to brag are now going to micro fourthirds and Sony with their smaller lenses?
That photo club I am with may not be representative for the whole world population, but we're not niche freaks either. Membership goes up, while display of "wow expensive toy" gear goes down, and has gone down for the last few years.

neuroanatomist

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2018, 12:13:25 PM »
Sorry, I must have missed where LensVid plotted the data for the big white lenses.  Can you point that out on their graphic?  And since their infographic is based on CIPA data, can you also point out the CIPA data on production/shipments of specific classes of lenses?

Or are you just talking out of your nether orifice?
Dealing with orifices of all kinds (whatever "nether orifice" may be) is your job, I am an engineer, and therefore used to derive data from given data sets. I have seen many kinds of equipment, starting from 8x10" film cameras to just about anything dSLR and now, more recently, mirrorless cameras, but I have so far not seen too many mirrorless cameras attached to big supertelephoto lenses. I also observe the general trend towards noticeably  smaller camera systems (medium format ---> 5Ds, 5DIII ---> Olympus, 70D/7D ---> Samsung/Olympus/Panasonic), also a good indicator that long superteles lost some popularity.

A second source of my assertion, that visibly expensive lenses sort of lost their magic is direct observation in my photo club with its 200+ active members, including myself for 8+ years. You simply don't see these much any longer, especially new ones, when one used to see a member with an expensive new dSLR or lens quite often some years ago.

Really? Your theory on dropping sales is because people used to buy gear to brag about it but don't anymore?
Have you any evidence that those people who used to buy big whites to brag are now going to micro fourthirds and Sony with their smaller lenses?
That photo club I am with may not be representative for the whole world population, but we're not niche freaks either. Membership goes up, while display of "wow expensive toy" gear goes down, and has gone down for the last few years.

Thanks for confirming that you have no actual data to support your assertion.
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Mikehit

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2018, 12:26:07 PM »
Sorry, I must have missed where LensVid plotted the data for the big white lenses.  Can you point that out on their graphic?  And since their infographic is based on CIPA data, can you also point out the CIPA data on production/shipments of specific classes of lenses?

Or are you just talking out of your nether orifice?
Dealing with orifices of all kinds (whatever "nether orifice" may be) is your job, I am an engineer, and therefore used to derive data from given data sets. I have seen many kinds of equipment, starting from 8x10" film cameras to just about anything dSLR and now, more recently, mirrorless cameras, but I have so far not seen too many mirrorless cameras attached to big supertelephoto lenses. I also observe the general trend towards noticeably  smaller camera systems (medium format ---> 5Ds, 5DIII ---> Olympus, 70D/7D ---> Samsung/Olympus/Panasonic), also a good indicator that long superteles lost some popularity.

A second source of my assertion, that visibly expensive lenses sort of lost their magic is direct observation in my photo club with its 200+ active members, including myself for 8+ years. You simply don't see these much any longer, especially new ones, when one used to see a member with an expensive new dSLR or lens quite often some years ago.

Really? Your theory on dropping sales is because people used to buy gear to brag about it but don't anymore?
Have you any evidence that those people who used to buy big whites to brag are now going to micro fourthirds and Sony with their smaller lenses?
That photo club I am with may not be representative for the whole world population, but we're not niche freaks either. Membership goes up, while display of "wow expensive toy" gear goes down, and has gone down for the last few years.

Alternative reading of your clique:
Most photographers are generalists so a smaller camera suits them fine. Until the rise of higher quality MFTs the only option was DSLR and people had little choice in what they brought: it has always bemused me that my 35mm film cameras were so much smaller than my 35mm DSLR. The shift is not so much  people no longer wanting to brag but now they have the option to buy the size of camera they would have bought had it been available.
In addition, the quality and IQ of sensors has got to the point of rapidly diminishing returns much lower down the food chain so the incentive to upgrade has become far less.

Also, member ship of camera clubs have changed, IME. Back in the 1980s/1990s camera clubs were largely populated by people who were keen enough to own decent gear (which was relatively costly) and people who were willing to have a go at developing their own pictures. Now, everybody has access to camera phones, compacts and DSLRs and freebie processing software is everywhere.  The pool is much wider and the percentage of people with big expensive gear gets lower.

Have you asked your  club colleageus if they own a big white so they can brag about it or if they actually use it?

Rudeofus

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2018, 05:52:56 PM »
Thanks for confirming that you have no actual data to support your assertion.
Neither have you, at least under the assumption that insults are not considered data. I have one more data point for you, though: compare this thread from 2015 about the upcoming 600 DO vs. the thread from late 2016 vs. the most recent thread here. Compare enthusiasm, number of postings in the first 24 hours, compare whatever you want, but there is a noticeable difference. The latest thread has mostly professionals and dedicated wild life shooters discussing a lens they seem to need, the two previous threads are full of additional people filled with excitement about a lens they will likely never buy but dream of having.

Also, member ship of camera clubs have changed, IME. Back in the 1980s/1990s camera clubs were largely populated by people who were keen enough to own decent gear (which was relatively costly) and people who were willing to have a go at developing their own pictures. Now, everybody has access to camera phones, compacts and DSLRs and freebie processing software is everywhere.  The pool is much wider and the percentage of people with big expensive gear gets lower.
Owning a camera for a few snaps does not automatically lead to people joining a photo club. People in our club a generally enthusiastic about photography, about lighting and studio work, some more into architecture and urban landscapes. It's just the excitement about new cameras and lenses that appears to have been lost. One guy actually did buy the 600 L II just recently, didn't even bother bringing it along, just showed around some shots on his smart phone for the few who cared. Such a thing would have been unthinkable five years ago.

Talys

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2018, 06:39:18 PM »
This has turned into such a crazy thread.

"Canon is doomed because the people who liked to brag and show off their CAMERA LENSES aren't feeling the testosterone with big whites anymore!!!  Canon doesn't get that enthusiasts REALLY want to show off small and sexy cameras now!!!"

Sure, there is pride in ownership, and genuine excitement in owning such a thing. But FFS, who the blazes cares who wants to show off what. I want a nice, sharp, light(er)  lens for taking photos at great magnification. Anyone who thinks that the vast majority of people considering a $10k+ lens for any other purpose is nuts.

neuroanatomist

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2018, 06:40:26 PM »
Thanks for confirming that you have no actual data to support your assertion.
Neither have you, at least under the assumption that insults are not considered data.

I'm not the one who started making assertions, you are. The burden of supporting them falls on you. If you can't substantiate your claims, they're just your personal opinion...you're welcome to share that opinion, but you may as well be claiming the earth is flat for the credibility it has.


I have one more data point for you, though: compare this thread from 2015 about the upcoming 600 DO vs. the thread from late 2016 vs. the most recent thread here. Compare enthusiasm, number of postings in the first 24 hours, compare whatever you want, but there is a noticeable difference. The latest thread has mostly professionals and dedicated wild life shooters discussing a lens they seem to need, the two previous threads are full of additional people filled with excitement about a lens they will likely never buy but dream of having.

Obviously you don't understand the difference between data and anecdotes.  For most people, that would be sad.  For an engineer, it's downright pathetic.
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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2018, 06:40:26 PM »

bwud

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2018, 10:35:04 PM »
3.  There are people who own both mirrorless and DSLRs.  I think, lots of enthusiasts.  What is the ratio of usage of mirrorless and DSLR for people who own both?

I fit that demographic. I got a mirrorless ILC about 2.5 years ago, but kept all my canon SLR gear. Over that time period, I probably used MILC for 90% of my shots. SLR was primarily for longer lenses.

I am currently evaluating whether I will start using mirrorless for long lens work, with this combination. In case anyone is wondering, the fact that it's white had no bearing on the purchase ;)

Talys

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2018, 12:54:44 AM »
In case anyone is wondering, the fact that it's white had no bearing on the purchase ;)

LOL +1 :D

What do you think so far?  100-400LII with a 2x on a 6DII is a no go for me in nearly all cases.  Even a 1.4x is not really enjoyable to use unless it's a very bright day.

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Re: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2017 Infographic
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2018, 12:54:44 AM »