June 19, 2018, 06:35:13 PM

Author Topic: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?  (Read 15616 times)

ethanz

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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2018, 12:50:49 PM »
Thanks guys!! 

It would seem that initially free software is a very good option, trusting the judgment of others and given that processing comes after recording I guess I'd better start shooting a lot of practice video to simply become more familiar with the challenges. 

What use is 4K 60 - only slow motion??  Can it be used in every way like 4K 30??  Probably pretty dumb questions but like I said I have never done video (I seem to recall there is no audio but ...).

Jack

Yes, typically you use the higher frame rate so you can slow the video down later in post production. So you can still use 60p in a 30p or 24p movie project, it will just get rid of the extra frames I think. Audio works just fine on 4K 60p with the 1dx2 (not on 1080p120).

As we've talked about before, I use Premiere for video editing. It is a full feature software. I shoot in 4k typically and then create proxies (basically a downsized version of the file that the software uses for editing, but then reverts back to the source video for final output encoding). Even with my nice computer Premiere has problems playing 4K, even on the 1/4 playback setting. In my mind, Premiere is not very efficient. From what I've heard, FCP has been finely tuned to work 4K well on Macs.

Jack, remember that 1dx2 4K is a 1.4 crop, so your 11-24 will crop some, which is fine. My 24-70 gives me plenty of area in 4K.
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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2018, 12:50:49 PM »

jayphotoworks

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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2018, 01:48:22 PM »



I don't see them dropping in price, certainly not in the >6lb category, maybe new features and form factors but the value is there if you need the tool. The Ronin S isn't out yet and is supposed to be comparable to the Crane 2, it won't be cheaper but will have more system add ons.

As for external monitors, I haven't gone there yet as I am traveling but do have a CamRanger already that is video output capable to most phones and laptops so I might experiment when I have more time.

I recently acquired a Zhiyun Crane 2. Because the form factor is so small, external monitoring seems like overkill, so I basically try to look past the roll motor. I know the Ronin-S has the roll motor at an angle which should solve this problem.



Scott and Jay,
So you two say that the Crane 2 will work well with the 1dx2 and maybe a 24-70 2.8? The gimbal will give full range of motion with that much weight on it? I was looking at the Ronin M but if this Crane 2 will do it, it seems to be easier to hold and move around. Using the screen to get focus though could be a challenge, right?

I've never tried a gripped body on the Crane 2. The closest thing from Canon I recently shot on this gimbal was a 5DS and a 17-40L lens. The 5DS doesn't even have DPAF, but the Crane 2 can control all camera controls (LV toggle, Aperture, Shutter, and even Focus) right from the OLED display and focus wheel, so it was a pleasant operating experience and with the included metal tripod legs, I could put it on the floor when fatigue set in. The best part is that going from taking the gimbal out of the case to getting the camera on the gimbal to shooting was 1-2 minutes at most when pre-balanced. The part that takes the most time is learning how to initially balance the gimbal and when you need to do lens changes, but that comes with experience and doing it enough.

The Ronin-M takes more time to setup and has a number of other considerations. You will need external monitoring and some form of wireless lens control. You also need a few other accessories to be able to set it down when fatigue sets in without having someone carry the stand whenever you move. When fully equipped, it will weigh considerably more and personally even after a lot of kettle bell training, I still can't operate a setup like this unassisted for more than 20-30 mins at a time so I commonly use an easy-rig or steadicam vest. I think the DJI Ronin dual handle series are better suited for larger productions or cinema cameras.



Jack Douglas

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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2018, 01:48:43 PM »
The feedback is very much appreciated and small concepts are beginning to fall into place in a bigger picture.  I have the Zhiyun Crane 2 in my shopping cart (Amazon.ca) and am just waiting for confirmation on where the shipping is coming from and the time factor.

From first seeing the stabilized gimbals about 2 years ago I was blown away but the prices seemed really high.  $1000 CAD I can handle.  With my 6D about 4 years ago I did a video of my son playing piano with a symphony orchestra in the Edmonton Windspear Theater and I had the 70-200 and was in the balcony alone.  It was very frustrating getting the manual focus bang on, partly because without reading glasses I couldn't clearly judge up close.  Anyway, the experience was positive and negative but I had trouble panning/zooming shifting focus from one area to another and was angry at myself afterwards.  AF is a godsend.

So 4K 60, other than larger file sizes is not going to be regretted when it comes to future editing - right?

Is it relatively easy to do some trimming to remove material after the fact to reduce the files for storage and future careful editing?  Or is it better to keep the clips as small as possible?

Jack
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ethanz

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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2018, 02:07:19 PM »
The feedback is very much appreciated and small concepts are beginning to fall into place in a bigger picture.  I have the Zhiyun Crane 2 in my shopping cart (Amazon.ca) and am just waiting for confirmation on where the shipping is coming from and the time factor.

From first seeing the stabilized gimbals about 2 years ago I was blown away but the prices seemed really high.  $1000 CAD I can handle.  With my 6D about 4 years ago I did a video of my son playing piano with a symphony orchestra in the Edmonton Windspear Theater and I had the 70-200 and was in the balcony alone.  It was very frustrating getting the manual focus bang on, partly because without reading glasses I couldn't clearly judge up close.  Anyway, the experience was positive and negative but I had trouble panning/zooming shifting focus from one area to another and was angry at myself afterwards.  AF is a godsend.

So 4K 60, other than larger file sizes is not going to be regretted when it comes to future editing - right?

Is it relatively easy to do some trimming to remove material after the fact to reduce the files for storage and future careful editing?  Or is it better to keep the clips as small as possible?

Jack

Zooming while filming handheld is still a challenge for me, not sure how a gimbal would change that. With my 200-400 I finally got a good enough tripod and head that can smoothly move the camera and allow me to zoom without adding too much shake (thanks to someone who donated it to my church). With a monopod, you could probably zoom ok with a 24-70 or even 70-200. I just tried my new monopod out last night with some video, haven't checked out the results yet.

I don't believe 60p will negatively affect you later on, besides larger file sizes.

Sometimes I will export my source video files as 1080 or a lesser bitrate 4k file to store it for later use. (As has been leveled against Canon repeatedly is that the video files are so big and beautiful.) You can also delete the proxy video files too when you are done. With the videos I make, I will have many short video clips to compile a bigger movie. When archiving/storing I will often delete the video clips that I did not use to help save on space.
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ethanz

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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2018, 02:11:13 PM »



I don't see them dropping in price, certainly not in the >6lb category, maybe new features and form factors but the value is there if you need the tool. The Ronin S isn't out yet and is supposed to be comparable to the Crane 2, it won't be cheaper but will have more system add ons.

As for external monitors, I haven't gone there yet as I am traveling but do have a CamRanger already that is video output capable to most phones and laptops so I might experiment when I have more time.

I recently acquired a Zhiyun Crane 2. Because the form factor is so small, external monitoring seems like overkill, so I basically try to look past the roll motor. I know the Ronin-S has the roll motor at an angle which should solve this problem.



Scott and Jay,
So you two say that the Crane 2 will work well with the 1dx2 and maybe a 24-70 2.8? The gimbal will give full range of motion with that much weight on it? I was looking at the Ronin M but if this Crane 2 will do it, it seems to be easier to hold and move around. Using the screen to get focus though could be a challenge, right?

I've never tried a gripped body on the Crane 2. The closest thing from Canon I recently shot on this gimbal was a 5DS and a 17-40L lens. The 5DS doesn't even have DPAF, but the Crane 2 can control all camera controls (LV toggle, Aperture, Shutter, and even Focus) right from the OLED display and focus wheel, so it was a pleasant operating experience and with the included metal tripod legs, I could put it on the floor when fatigue set in. The best part is that going from taking the gimbal out of the case to getting the camera on the gimbal to shooting was 1-2 minutes at most when pre-balanced. The part that takes the most time is learning how to initially balance the gimbal and when you need to do lens changes, but that comes with experience and doing it enough.

The Ronin-M takes more time to setup and has a number of other considerations. You will need external monitoring and some form of wireless lens control. You also need a few other accessories to be able to set it down when fatigue sets in without having someone carry the stand whenever you move. When fully equipped, it will weigh considerably more and personally even after a lot of kettle bell training, I still can't operate a setup like this unassisted for more than 20-30 mins at a time so I commonly use an easy-rig or steadicam vest. I think the DJI Ronin dual handle series are better suited for larger productions or cinema cameras.

Thanks Jay, that is very helpful. For only $750 I might try out the Crane 2. What is the difference between it and the other versions Zhiyun makes? Its nice that it has small legs on the bottom for resting.
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privatebydesign

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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2018, 02:23:08 PM »
The Zhiyun Crane 2 will take a 1DX MkII and 24-70 f2.8. You do need to either undo some screws to slide the gravity plate past its natural stop or get an extended gravity plate made especially for the gripped bodies.
 
Here is a link to it at B&H but you can get them on eBay etc https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1389917-REG/zhiyun_tech_gmb_c522_gravity_adjustment_plate_for.html

The other models they make are all much smaller capacity so will not handle or fit the 1DX MkII.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

jayphotoworks

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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2018, 02:53:48 PM »
The feedback is very much appreciated and small concepts are beginning to fall into place in a bigger picture.  I have the Zhiyun Crane 2 in my shopping cart (Amazon.ca) and am just waiting for confirmation on where the shipping is coming from and the time factor.

From first seeing the stabilized gimbals about 2 years ago I was blown away but the prices seemed really high.  $1000 CAD I can handle.  With my 6D about 4 years ago I did a video of my son playing piano with a symphony orchestra in the Edmonton Windspear Theater and I had the 70-200 and was in the balcony alone.  It was very frustrating getting the manual focus bang on, partly because without reading glasses I couldn't clearly judge up close.  Anyway, the experience was positive and negative but I had trouble panning/zooming shifting focus from one area to another and was angry at myself afterwards.  AF is a godsend.

So 4K 60, other than larger file sizes is not going to be regretted when it comes to future editing - right?

Is it relatively easy to do some trimming to remove material after the fact to reduce the files for storage and future careful editing?  Or is it better to keep the clips as small as possible?

Jack

The motion cadence of 60p dropped into a 24p timeline will not appear the same as footage shot at 24p. It may appear "strobey" or unnatural depending on the type of movement you are capturing. You should ideally shoot 60p for shots that you intend to utilize that frame rate and 24p for everything else (assuming you are trying to aim for a traditional 24p cinematic look).

Also, the shutter angle or shutter speed will have to be considered as well. Again, if you are trying to aim for a traditional 180 degree look that is common in cinema, shooting at 24p for a 180 degree shutter angle yields a shutter of 1/48s, but 60p would require 1/120s to preserve the 180 shutter angle.

None of these are hard rules, but will help you when trying to put together a consistent looking final product.

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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2018, 02:53:48 PM »

Jack Douglas

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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2018, 04:52:52 PM »
Thanks Jay, good to know.  ethanz, appreciate your perspective also.

Scott, do you think the 70-200 2.8 II is too heavy/big - have you physically tried a few different lenses?

If one adds the dual handles to the gimbal, then control is no longer at your fingertips, right?  What about rigging up some kind of flag-pole type support?? 

Jack
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ethanz

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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2018, 04:59:44 PM »
Thanks Jay, good to know.  ethanz, appreciate your perspective also.

Scott, do you think the 70-200 2.8 II is too heavy/big - have you physically tried a few different lenses?

If one adds the dual handles to the gimbal, then control is no longer at your fingertips, right?  What about rigging up some kind of flag-pole type support?? 

Jack

Jay probably knows more than I do.

Our 1dx and 70-200 is just about 7lbs, so it would be getting close to its limit.

I know some gimbal makers have remotes that you can add to the gimbal, probably for that very reason.
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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2018, 06:05:41 PM »
ethanz, every comment is helpful to me given my inexperience. :)

I've mentioned in another thread but to put my recent video interest in context here is where I'm determined to be in August and September.  It would be a travesty to have the 1DX2 and not do some video.

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Jack
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jayphotoworks

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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2018, 08:11:43 PM »
Thanks Jay, good to know.  ethanz, appreciate your perspective also.

Scott, do you think the 70-200 2.8 II is too heavy/big - have you physically tried a few different lenses?

If one adds the dual handles to the gimbal, then control is no longer at your fingertips, right?  What about rigging up some kind of flag-pole type support?? 

Jack

Yes, Zhiyun has two remotes available. One is a $50 remote that replicates the PTZ controls of the gimbal that you can mount on the handles/extension pole. The other is a $200 remote that replicates everything including the focus wheel, oled screen, ptz and camera controls.

I haven't tried a 70-200 on the crane 2, but I have seen some Youtube videos of it balanced. It looks like extra care needs to be taken to ensure a tilt operation doesn't damage the camera because it sits very close to the roll motor at the back.

https://youtu.be/-ZeYKHzf4jo?t=6m22s




ethanz

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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2018, 10:07:26 PM »
Here is a good video about the Ronin vs Crane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrQIrD7eohM (and its in english :))
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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2018, 01:13:01 PM »
Well, after watching the videos, I just had to make the purchase so hopefully in a week or two I'll be able to also provide feedback.  I never dreamt I'd have one of these gizmos after seeing initial units and initial prices!!  Makes me think of all the threads where various people whine and complain about what crummy this or that is being produced by whomever, but mostly Canon. ;)

Jack
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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2018, 01:13:01 PM »

Jack Douglas

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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2018, 12:16:37 AM »
Received my unit today carelessly burned the 1DX2 replacement foot with the box and a bunch of cardboard (I was cleaning out scrap boxes from the shop and forgot the extra package was in there).  I bet no one else would ever do this!   :-[  What a stupid guy.  Anyway I found it with all the finish burned off but it cleaned up and except for the numbers is OK. :)

So, after all the fun I finally started balancing with the 11-24 and it looks to me like there are physical restrictions of travel - so if anyone has any experience please comment.

The 1DX2 has the lens much higher so the bracket that rises up to contact the lens barrel is woefully short.  That piece ensures the camera doesn't swing and stays pointing forward.  I'm sure I can create a workaround.

For now I'll probably change to the 24-70 F4 so I get a feeling for the above mentioned restrictions and whether they are inhibiting once I've got the smaller lens working.

Jack
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Talys

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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2018, 12:28:33 AM »
I don't have any ideas for you, Jack, but I'm checking back on this thread to see how you're making out :)

Good luck!

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Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2018, 12:28:33 AM »