April 25, 2018, 10:45:32 PM

Author Topic: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should  (Read 21132 times)

unfocused

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #135 on: February 16, 2018, 11:24:07 AM »
I am not saying Canon is doomed, and I am not going anywhere as I just received my 500f4 yesterday.  That being said the market is mature and Canon gaining market share in the past may not reflect what happens going forward as that gained market share regenerates.  I have no desire to change brands, but I did give some thought to the Nikon D850.  Once canon gives me a good full frame sensor, 10fps and a tilting screen I will be happy for a long as it works. 

I do find it frustrating that unless I buy a low mega pixel 1dx2 I cannot get even two of the three asks above from Canon.  I would gladly pay 1dx2 money for a new 5d, maybe the SR2, with a fast frame rate, no AA filter, and a tilting screen.

I don't think anyone who truly uses their equipment and is honest thinks things are perfect. There are lots of things about Canon that I wish were better and I've certainly made that clear. A few highlights: The 1DX series is a dust magnet; Canon's autofocus could be better; the 5DIV metering is poor under certain conditions; the lack of illuminated focus points on the 5DIV can be a real pain; APS-C noise performance could be improved; and most importantly:

All
manufacturers ought to be embarrassed by the lack of features and poor connectivity in comparison to smart phones. And, if you don't think that is having a negative impact on professionals, you have your head stuck in the sand.

What I find frustrating is a) the broad stroke claim that Canon is less innovative than others, when what people are whining about is that Canon didn't put every available feature into its entry-level camera; b) the assumption that just because I want a particular feature Canon is stupid/greedy for not giving me the feature I want; and c) that minuscule differences in sensor performance at the edges of utility makes a camera worthless and matters to anyone in the real world.

 

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #135 on: February 16, 2018, 11:24:07 AM »

unfocused

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #136 on: February 16, 2018, 11:37:04 AM »
I am happy with my 6D and Canon lenses, but I can understand frustration with 6DII. It is obvious that Canon has a new sensor technology and every camera after and including 80D has it. But from some reason Canon decided to not put this new sensor in 6DII, whereas every other camera in FF and APS-C lines after 80D has it already. Whether it is for cost or for differentiation (protecting 5DIV) reasons, the move is highly questionable.
6DII is a great camera otherwise from my point of view, exactly as it should be. But the new sensor tech would just do it even better, considering this is everywhere else in the line.

When the original 6D came out, the internet lit up with complaints about the antiquated autofocus system. When it actually got into users' hands, they found it actually performed fairly well and the camera sold incredibly well once its price settled in to what the market would bear.

Canon fixed the major complaint of the 6D with the 6DII, giving it a much better autofocus system. Now the internet is lit up with complaints about the sensor. And once again users are finding that it actually performs quite well. The price is also settling down to what the market will bear.

We don't have inside information the cost of the 5D IV vs. 6D II sensor, although we do know that the 5D IV sensor is really something special -- providing excellent shadow recovery; while also providing nearly as good of noise performance as the 1DX II, even though it has a lot greater pixel density.

I strongly suspect that that 5D IV sensor is an expensive component and offering that same performance in a camera that is half the price would not be feasible. 

stevelee

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #137 on: February 16, 2018, 11:38:08 AM »
For this reason the 6DMKII is probably one of my favorite Canon cameras thus far. It is super underrated if you liked the 5DMKIII you would love the 6.

Just a shame the reviewers only focus on shadow pulls rather than the camera as a package for image making.

My experience with the 6D2 has been extremely positive. I came to it from some years of using a T3i, so my perspective will differ from that of the pros and gearheads, of course. I like tinkering with controls, but I find that the autofocus and autoexposure work really well under challenging circumstances.

I didn't use the swivel screen on the T3i that much until the August eclipse, just a few months before I bought the 6D2. I have used the tilt screen on my G7X II a lot as I travel and take pictures inside domes and up through spires. After those experiences, I wouldn't want to be without the feature.

Crocuses have come up in front of my house. They are tiny little flowers close to the ground. I've been taking pictures of them using the non-IS 100mm macro I already had. I found that using autofocus and autoexposure and framing on the tilt screen worked really well, and I've posted some of the pictures in the macro flower pictures thread. I had not tried hand-held photos in the macro range before (other than an unsuccessful attempt at chasing around a bumble bee). So I have been amazed at how well all this works, just holding the camera near the ground and aiming the screen up at my face. And yes, for a pro shoot of the flowers I would rig some sort of tiny tripod or reversible one or something and set everything manually and preview depth of field. But for just some nice pictures of little flowers in my front yard, working quickly before the light changes, this all worked just great. I did use aperture priority some of the time and tried different looks at f/5 and f/16. I found I even liked the painterly effect of the picture where only the very front of the flower is in sharp focus.


My first outing with the 6D2 was to a Chinese lantern show at a botanical garden. As it got dark I was taking very contrasty available light shots and video hand-held using the kit 24-105mm STM, and got surprisingly good results. I thought this was a fun shot of a friend making a selfie:


Some day I do hope to be able to reproduce the problem with dynamic range that has so many panties in a knot, but until then I am going to keep enjoying taking pictures rather than worrying about what chip is where in the camera.

entoman

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #138 on: February 16, 2018, 12:17:00 PM »
Fundamentally I'd agree. Canon doesn't need to innovate, but what it does need to do is too improve performance in  several areas:

AF lags behind Nikon significantly. Accuracy is fine, but the system seens unable to recognise the subject as well as the more intelligent system in Nikon cameras, and Canon AF tracking simply can't keep up with the subject anywhere near as well as Nikon. I've extensively tested 5DS, 5DMkiv, D750, D810 & D850 with 100-400mm Mkii and Nikkor 80-400mm lenses respectively, side by side, and the Nikons win hands down every time.

Dynamic range and noise control at high ISO are still poor when comparing equivalent models e.g. 5DS vs D850. OK, the 5DS is 3 years old now, but the 5DMkiv which only has 30MP is still inferior to D810 and D850 in terms of low ISO DR and high ISO noise reduction.

Noise and vibration - although silent shutter mode is much better than normal mode, it remains noisy and reduces burst speed. In comparison to most mirrorless cameras it is archaic - wildlife and event photographers in particular want and need a camera that operates in near silence, and retains high burst speeds.

I've used Canon professionally for 7 years. I love the reliability, the ergonomics, the ease of operation, the stunning lenses and the pro service. I'm not considering a system change despite very strong challenges from Nikon and Sony. I don't want any radical changes in control layout of general design. I don't need radical innovation.

But I do want significant and overdue performance improvements as outlined above, and it's difficult to understand why Canon seems unable to meet these demands.
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exquisitor

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #139 on: February 16, 2018, 12:59:55 PM »
I am happy with my 6D and Canon lenses, but I can understand frustration with 6DII. It is obvious that Canon has a new sensor technology and every camera after and including 80D has it. But from some reason Canon decided to not put this new sensor in 6DII, whereas every other camera in FF and APS-C lines after 80D has it already. Whether it is for cost or for differentiation (protecting 5DIV) reasons, the move is highly questionable.
6DII is a great camera otherwise from my point of view, exactly as it should be. But the new sensor tech would just do it even better, considering this is everywhere else in the line.

When the original 6D came out, the internet lit up with complaints about the antiquated autofocus system. When it actually got into users' hands, they found it actually performed fairly well and the camera sold incredibly well once its price settled in to what the market would bear.

Canon fixed the major complaint of the 6D with the 6DII, giving it a much better autofocus system. Now the internet is lit up with complaints about the sensor. And once again users are finding that it actually performs quite well. The price is also settling down to what the market will bear.

We don't have inside information the cost of the 5D IV vs. 6D II sensor, although we do know that the 5D IV sensor is really something special -- providing excellent shadow recovery; while also providing nearly as good of noise performance as the 1DX II, even though it has a lot greater pixel density.

I strongly suspect that that 5D IV sensor is an expensive component and offering that same performance in a camera that is half the price would not be feasible.

Yeah, 5DIV is great. It is possible that Canon had a choice between high DR sensor with worse high ISO performance and "normal" DR sensor with great high ISO, and they have decided for latter one.

This is highly subjective of course, but I find focus system even on 6D completely fine. I use a manual focusing most of the time anyway (with EG-S screen), which slows down the things and provokes more thoughts about composition. In fact I like to use old medium format cameras from 60-80s just for this reason.

Gino

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #140 on: February 16, 2018, 02:26:00 PM »
Overall, I think Canon delivers a solid product, and I understand from their management standpoint that they need to meet ROI requirements, but I think they are making poor decisions when they purposely hold back features on their higher end cameras that should be included, and as a consumer I find it very annoying. 

For example, why didn't Canon use a UHS-II card slot in the 5D Mark IV, and why doesn't the 5D MK IV have the same translucent red LED autofocus points as the 1DX MK II.  Lastly, both the 5D MK IV and 1DX MK II should have backlit buttons on the back of the camera, like Nikon offers on their high end cameras.
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john kriegsmann

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #141 on: February 16, 2018, 02:51:09 PM »
I am a long term Canon user. Love their glass and the mechanics and durability of their bodies. There is no denying  that they have fallen behind in the sensor field. I just paid 3200 for a Canon 5D4 which I love but from all the reviews I have read and I have reviewed many the 5d4 is about equal to the five year old Nikon 750, a camera that sells for half the price of the 5D4. I was planning on buying a 6d2 but the vast majority of reviewers and I read over 15 reviews on this issue, the new 6D2 addressed the autofocus issue but equipped the camera with a sensor with less dynamic range than the original 6d. Canon rumors also predicted that the new 6d2 sensor would have improved dynamic range and it would have two sd card recording slots. Wrong on both counts. Canon  hurt itself with that release I would have paid 2500 for a 6D2 if it had two card slots and a sensor equal to the Nikon D750. Canon has the resources to clean up on the mirrorless market if they ever got serious about it. They finally produced a good body in the M5 but have a minimal native lens offering of mostly slow zoom kit lenses.

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #141 on: February 16, 2018, 02:51:09 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #142 on: February 16, 2018, 02:59:16 PM »
Canon has the resources to clean up on the mirrorless market if they ever got serious about it. They finally produced a good body in the M5 but have a minimal native lens offering of mostly slow zoom kit lenses.

They're #2 in global MILC sales, and while that's not quite 'cleaning up', it's rather good given their relatively limited investment to date.
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reef58

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #143 on: February 16, 2018, 04:22:45 PM »
I am not saying Canon is doomed, and I am not going anywhere as I just received my 500f4 yesterday.  That being said the market is mature and Canon gaining market share in the past may not reflect what happens going forward as that gained market share regenerates.  I have no desire to change brands, but I did give some thought to the Nikon D850.  Once canon gives me a good full frame sensor, 10fps and a tilting screen I will be happy for a long as it works. 

I do find it frustrating that unless I buy a low mega pixel 1dx2 I cannot get even two of the three asks above from Canon.  I would gladly pay 1dx2 money for a new 5d, maybe the SR2, with a fast frame rate, no AA filter, and a tilting screen.

I don't think anyone who truly uses their equipment and is honest thinks things are perfect. There are lots of things about Canon that I wish were better and I've certainly made that clear. A few highlights: The 1DX series is a dust magnet; Canon's autofocus could be better; the 5DIV metering is poor under certain conditions; the lack of illuminated focus points on the 5DIV can be a real pain; APS-C noise performance could be improved; and most importantly:

All
manufacturers ought to be embarrassed by the lack of features and poor connectivity in comparison to smart phones. And, if you don't think that is having a negative impact on professionals, you have your head stuck in the sand.

What I find frustrating is a) the broad stroke claim that Canon is less innovative than others, when what people are whining about is that Canon didn't put every available feature into its entry-level camera; b) the assumption that just because I want a particular feature Canon is stupid/greedy for not giving me the feature I want; and c) that minuscule differences in sensor performance at the edges of utility makes a camera worthless and matters to anyone in the real world.

 

I think Canon's innovation is great.  I think they have some great technology it is just hard to get it in one package.  I love my 5d4, but would love it more with a tilt screen.  The 6d2 would make a great camera with a bit better sensor.  Not that it is bad, but it could have been better.  Yes I am an ISO 100 tripod guy for the most part.  The 1dx2 is great, but wish it had a few more mega pixels.  If they did a good better best market then i could get that.  They do in a way, but leave off features at each level. 

I look forward to the 5DSR2.  I hope it stays at 50mp gets a better sensor and a tilt screen.  I would gladly pay 1dx2 money for a 1dx2 without a built in grip, the 5d4 sensor, tilt screen and fps reduced to 10.  Basically a d850.

scyrene

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Re: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.
« Reply #144 on: February 16, 2018, 05:49:53 PM »
The iPhone wasn't based around the needs of the professional phone user.

Because there's no such thing?

Wrong. Before iPhone, professional phone user own Blackberry.

You're missing my point, perhaps it's the language barrier. There's a meaningful distinction between a professional who uses a phone, and a "phone professional" - the latter doesn't really exist. The original post was making a comparison with professional photographers, i.e. those whose profession is photography/those who use cameras to make a living. No equivalent exists in the world of mobile phones (as *phones*, rather than phone cameras, which are used occasionally by professional *photographers*).

Anyway, this is way off topic.
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scyrene

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #145 on: February 16, 2018, 05:50:15 PM »
Canon is going to need a FF mirrorless that can jump ahead of Sony if they don't want to lose more marketshare.

Canon hasn't lost any marketshare, do keep up.
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BillB

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #146 on: February 16, 2018, 06:12:46 PM »
Canon is going to need a FF mirrorless that can jump ahead of Sony if they don't want to lose more marketshare.

Canon hasn't lost any marketshare, do keep up.

There seems to be an alternative universe where everybody knows that Canon is falling further and further behind because other cameras are so much better for shooting 4K video, apparently hand held, using the EVF.  Not that I have seen any output.

Don Haines

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Re: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.
« Reply #147 on: February 16, 2018, 07:56:52 PM »
The iPhone wasn't based around the needs of the professional phone user.

Because there's no such thing?

Wrong. Before iPhone, professional phone user own Blackberry.

You're missing my point, perhaps it's the language barrier. There's a meaningful distinction between a professional who uses a phone, and a "phone professional" - the latter doesn't really exist. The original post was making a comparison with professional photographers, i.e. those whose profession is photography/those who use cameras to make a living. No equivalent exists in the world of mobile phones (as *phones*, rather than phone cameras, which are used occasionally by professional *photographers*).

Anyway, this is way off topic.
i have friends at Ericsson who would disagree 😀
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Re: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.
« Reply #147 on: February 16, 2018, 07:56:52 PM »

Talys

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #148 on: February 17, 2018, 01:49:23 AM »
Canon  hurt itself with that release I would have paid 2500 for a 6D2 if it had two card slots and a sensor equal to the Nikon D750. Canon has the resources to clean up on the mirrorless market if they ever got serious about it. They finally produced a good body in the M5 but have a minimal native lens offering of mostly slow zoom kit lenses.

Congratulations on your 5D4.  I hope you really enjoy it!

The Canon 6D2 was designed to be a $1,500 camera (street/sale), not a $2,500 camera.  But from what you've described, you're basically saying, you'd really have liked the Canon 6D2 to be a 5D4, but cheaper.  Out of everyone who has objections to the 6D2, that seems to basically be what it boils down to.

But the idea of the 6D2 was to provide an entry level full-frame camera, with similar low light performance, but all around, a little less, for a lot less money.

The M5/M6 seems to be designed for size and price point, and Canon seems to have hit the mark with it, in terms of it being very popular.  Here, what I think you're saying is, you'd like Canon to commit to high end mirrorless, rather than prosumer mirrorless.  A lot of people who are sold on mirrorless echo this; it probably won't be happening in 2018.

But I'll tell you one thing for sure, if the 5D4 is a perfect tool for you, I don't think a Canon-made A7R3 would be, and vice versa.  They're just different at what they're good at (the Sony A7R3 and the Canon 5D4), and they excel at different things. 

For almost all the things I do, I would take a Canon 5D4 any day of the week.  This is because I don't shoot many candids (nearly none).  Everything I do is either indoors, in an environment where I supplement lighting with off-camera strobes -- or wildlife.  In both cases, mirrored TTL OVF is just much more comfortable to use.  However, if you like street photography, prefer candids, or do a bunch of video, I can definitely see the attraction of mirrorless.

I would love a Canon-made DSLR with many of the D850 features, but I wouldn't switch (back) to Nikon, because of a variety of reasons, mostly EF lens system, color science, and ergonomics; with DPAF a factor -- I hardly ever use DPAF, but liveview AF on a Nikon is like t2i.

Is any camera perfect?  No, but I think that the 6DII is an amazing camera for its price.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 01:54:31 AM by Talys »

stevelee

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #149 on: February 17, 2018, 09:41:21 AM »
I'm not sure how relevant this is to this discussion, but it is something that I have recently realized from my experience, and people are commenting here about color science as one reason they prefer Canon cameras.

I almost always shoot RAW files. I currently use a 6D2 and for travels a G7X II. Earlier I shot with Rebels and the S95 and then the S120. So I open my pictures in ACR, and when I look at the color I might try "Auto" and some of the presets. Almost invariably "As Shot" is the best looking one of the bunch. Then I may well go on to tweak the sliders, sometimes a compromise between "As Shot" and "Auto" when they each have their advantages, sometimes just a "that's not the way I remember it" adjustment to imitate my recollection of reality.

(Presumably my experience in Lightroom would be the same, if I preferred to work that way.)

I take it then that had I been shooting JPEGs, the camera would have got the color on the nose or very close (to my eyes at least) almost all of the time.

I do sometimes shoot other than AWB, for example I'll use the "Daylight" setting if I want to preserve the look of late afternoon sun, so that when it comes up in ACR it looks like near-sunset light. Some of you here have encouraged me to do it that way. Even then, I find that Canon's idea of "Daylight" is more to my liking than Adobe's, though the difference is not huge. Seeing the two slightly different versions of reality is often helpful in my adjustments.

I got my first Rebel about ten years ago, so I concede there might be something like confirmation bias here. Maybe my Canon cameras have taught me to see color their way.

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #149 on: February 17, 2018, 09:41:21 AM »