May 26, 2018, 01:53:20 PM

Author Topic: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should  (Read 25303 times)

Isaacheus

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2018, 06:34:44 PM »
Spot on. I saved up in preparation for the 6DII and now there's no way I'd get one. I also don't think the 5DIV is worth the money costing as much as the D850 and A7RIII. Where does this leave me? Not buying Canon.

I am one consumer but I won't be alone in this.

Fair enough. But out of interest, what feature of the D850 and A7r3 will enable you to take better pictures or make your photography easier.
I really like the look of the D850 as a general tool and would, if I were buying afresh, offer a strong alternative for my Canon gear. But for the things I take it will not really do much the 5D4 cannot - at the ISOs I often use for wildlife, the sensor gives no better image quality. The AF tracking is limited by me, not the camera. And the Canon has an excellent range of lenses. The only thing I might find useful is the in-built focus stacking.

I think it is easy to see a camera as 'better spec' and spend heaps on it only to find out it does not actually affect day-to-day activity that much at all, after spending hundreds (if not thousands) on making the switch.

Not who you were replying to but was in the same position :went with the sony a7r3 instead of a 6dmk2 and a new lens or the 5dmk4 on its own.

There are a few things both the canon's meant I'd compromise on, where the sony had fewer and smaller ones.

1080 120fps
FF 4k - I understand the 6dmk2 not having this in full frame but the 5dmk4 felt behind for it

Tilting screen for landscape - this may be the biggest one, the dynamic range of the 6dmk2 really threw me off it, having the dynamic range of the first 6d limit a few of my timelapses meant there was no point trying. The 5dmk4 would have worked if the screen was there. Some compositions are far harder to monitor without the screen for timelapse

Peaking and zebras for landscapes, just makes things easier, not a major on its own but it's hard to go back now

USB charging

Ibis is nice, being able to use primes for handheld video is very useful. Something I really can't do on the Canon 6d or 5dmk3. I assume the same for the newer ones too

There are a few others, but you get the idea. The canons are decent reliable cameras, but there are things they just cannot shoot compared to other options in class.

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2018, 06:34:44 PM »

docsmith

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Re: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2018, 06:40:46 PM »
Here's the problem:

Canon responds to the needs of, and builds products differentiated for, two groups: professionals and consumers.

We are enthusiasts.  Canon does not respond to our desires - we're too small a market.

I almost completely agree with this and love the direction you are going. But I would further subdivide as Canon does make camera's for enthusiasts.  The enthusiast market is great.  I would argue that a lot of enthusiasts own 80D's, 7DII's, 6DII's, 5DIV's, and even 1DX's.

The subset of people that are obsessed with what they do not have in their Canon camera vs what they do have is more about personality type than about markets.  I deal with people that want more every day.  It is really interesting, as they rarely consider the broader benefit and costs.  They just want.  They want and are convinced that any level of benefit is worth the cost (horrible business model, BTW).  Once they have "X" they will want "Y."  They are not technically wrong (usually) in that there is benefit to "X" and would be benefit from "Y", but these people are never pleased.  It is a bit funny, because, at least those that I work with, they are not in positions of accountability.  The rubber never really hits the road in their positions.  Those that are, usually tend to be more strategic about what they want...but I digress.....

Overall, the two mindsets are both correct: 
  • Things are always changing and it is rare to survive if you do not evolve
  • It is foolish to not slow down and enjoy the benefits of your past efforts

These two mindsets are not mutually exclusive, matter of fact, IMO, the balance of the two is critical.  Slow and steady does win the race.  It may annoy some people, but it is true more often than not.



Don Haines

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2018, 06:41:27 PM »
As a professional, one buys a tool because it works.

Everything else is secondary.
The best camera is the one in your hands

neuroanatomist

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2018, 06:44:53 PM »
The canons are decent reliable cameras, but there are things they just cannot shoot compared to other options in class.

There is a very important distinction between 'things they just cannot shoot' and 'things I just cannot shoot with them'.

I'm not saying the former is never true, but for the most part when people state the former, what they really mean is the latter. This was Keith's point earlier in the thread.
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CafferyPhoto

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2018, 06:46:53 PM »
I've been with Canon EOS since the 20D (T90 before that).  I've been more than happy because of the automatic sensor cleaning, great low light AF and the great lenses.  The big beef I have with them are things like only supplying the 500mb/s 4K on the 5DIV.  I would own two of these beasts if they produced usable (smaller) 4K footage, but for now I have to wait until they finally decide to give the humans fire from Mount Olympus.  I don't have room or need for more than two bodies - but what I need is two cameras with dual memory card slots, usable 4K video, and not huge bodies. 

I need a main body and a backup body, both serving as 4K cameras for video work.  I need simplicity.

If the 6D had two SD slots I would be all over that thing!  C'mon Canon, I'm not getting any younger; at least release a firmware update for the 5DIV so we can have smaller 4K files.

IglooEater

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Re: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2018, 06:47:41 PM »
Getting the popcorn out for this comment section

Me too. 
  I read the post and I’m like, “seriously? We need a thread for this?”

On a side note, if the 5D IV is not majorly more advanced than the 5D II, Nikon’s improvements in the D850 over the D800 are even more dismal during a similar timeslot. I don’t think this is a Canon problem so msuch as an industry wide problem. 
  Oh, and for Sony mirrorless, they’re only starting to be products even worthy of being released, so what might be seen as innovation towards great products to some looked to others more like trying to fix under-engineered beta products.

docsmith

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2018, 06:50:15 PM »
Spot on. I saved up in preparation for the 6DII and now there's no way I'd get one. I also don't think the 5DIV is worth the money costing as much as the D850 and A7RIII. Where does this leave me? Not buying Canon.

I am one consumer but I won't be alone in this.

Fair enough. But out of interest, what feature of the D850 and A7r3 will enable you to take better pictures or make your photography easier.

Yeah, so Dustin's review, one's better in some areas, one's better in others:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_WPjtjuMGk

The comparisons I've seen are all calling them ballparkish equal. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=PgdNEAZ29Vg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlRRt7hbryY

So...Canon MUST EVOLVE.....yet are basically equal to the others..... ::)





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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2018, 06:50:15 PM »

FramerMCB

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Re: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2018, 06:58:46 PM »
Some innovation yes, but in general I broadly agree with the FS article.

Unfortunately, I'm minded to consider that many of the noise making whingers should probably pay far more attention to their basic photography skills ;-)

The whole 'lack of innovation' thing is largely driven by people who prefer to look to a tech fix, or simply 'buy their way' to better photos.

Much as with modern printers and people's 'print quality', the most significant areas for personal improvement in photography are usually not technically limited.

That's not to say we shouldn't welcome advances, just not use any perceived lack as cover for our own ineptitude ;-)

Amen!

A+.
The worst picture ever is the one not taken: so shoot, shoot, shoot! Know your equipment first however to avoid as much as possible, bad photos. ;-)

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jc7222

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2018, 07:17:05 PM »
Perception is reality!  This is a lesson that Canon will begin to learn the hard way without innovation.  I see many more videos and write-ups about Canon not being able to measure up to other manufacturers' innovation and this will begin to stick and impact their bottom line. 

Surfboard

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2018, 07:44:14 PM »
Canon is behind, way behind. Any gig that I do that involves video simply cannot be done with a Canon camera. Period. Full stop. Their $5500 "flagship` camera tops out at 120fps in hd. How 2010 of them.... Sony here I come....

Isaacheus

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2018, 07:45:53 PM »
The canons are decent reliable cameras, but there are things they just cannot shoot compared to other options in class.

There is a very important distinction between 'things they just cannot shoot' and 'things I just cannot shoot with them'.

I'm not saying the former is never true, but for the most part when people state the former, what they really mean is the latter. This was Keith's point earlier in the thread.

Oh yes, and I don't want to imply that it is always the camera that is the limiting factor. For a number of shots I take, the camera doesn't make the difference, can't blame the camera for those bad shots.

For my uses, it's more the video features that the Canon just doesn't have the option for, namely the full frame 4k and 120 fps video.

For most of my stills, the differences in dynamic range between Sony and the 5dmk4 are not the deciding factor, just not enough in it. It's the functional features that get it there. Didn't think I'd be saying the Canon offering isn't as functional as the Sony really

Jack Jian

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2018, 07:57:09 PM »
Perception is reality!  This is a lesson that Canon will begin to learn the hard way without innovation.  I see many more videos and write-ups about Canon not being able to measure up to other manufacturers' innovation and this will begin to stick and impact their bottom line.

I wish Canon would read your comment and start innovating rather than consulting the pro's on their needs.
Innovations I know are as below (not in order):

1. USM AF
2. 50mm F1.0
3. First affordable FF
4. IS (I think) & Hybrid IS
5. STM AF
6. DPAF
7. Eye Controlled AF
8. Practical Widest lens with L standard IQ & built
10. Now, they "Accidently" found tweaking the DPRAW to squeeze out extra stop of DR (and will eventually ISO noise performance as well), and in a matter of time when it's perfected, all Canon APSC and FF will be leading the pack with higher DR and ISO performance..LOL
11. The legendary Canon color science..(Don't tell me you can tweak any RAW to get the canon color, I'll , and every Canon shooters will roll their eyes!)
12. DO lens
13. 50MP DSLR
14. Dual Cross AF + 5 Dual Cross AF points on modern 5D lineup and 1Dx line up.
15. Air Sphere coating
16. Blue Spectrum reduction coating and a lot similar more
17. and a lot more, just browse through the patent news on CR and compared it to NR and SR (they have no news at all).
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 08:44:44 PM by Jack Jian »

alienman

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2018, 08:16:35 PM »
Canon is behind, way behind. Any gig that I do that involves video simply cannot be done with a Canon camera. Period. Full stop. Their $5500 "flagship` camera tops out at 120fps in hd. How 2010 of them.... Sony here I come....

I agree, I went the Panasonic route and got the gh5 and gh5s with a couple of metabones speedsters for my legacy canon glass. Focus peaking, zebras, DCI 4k, 4k 60p, just seemed to be a more logical decision than getting 1dxii to go along with my cinema camera. Hopefully canon knocks it out of the park with their full frame mirrorless. Im praying

And for you video guys out there I believe Panasonic just announced an 8k sensor for their mirrorless.


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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2018, 08:16:35 PM »

slclick

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Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2018, 08:18:05 PM »
All this chatter takes me back to the OG debate how if film shooters of yesteryear could do what they do, it's not the camera if you can't do it with todays gear. Well, looking at the responses it does seem stills are satisfied and video folks are not. Glad I'm in the happy camp.
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9VIII

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Re: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2018, 08:44:14 PM »
I think the 6D Mark II bugged me. I have one, I use it, it's fine.

It should be better than "fine".

Actually I think the 6DII is just fine being "just fine".
I'm waiting for the price to drop, Full Frame bodies should be moving closer to entry level prices, the 6DII is doing what the 6DII should do, it's just overpriced right now. Anyone would LOVE to have a 6DII instead of an 80D.

Overall, Canon is pacing themselves just fine.
As FStoppers pointed out (amazingly for a popular blog), the only reason people perceive Sony as making rapid progress is because their products were borderline unusable before now, if Sony had been competitive with Canon this whole time the A7RIII would be nothing special.
It's inevitable that Canon will catch up to whatever sensor tech their competition comes up with, Sony has a limited time to actually leverage any advantage in that area (if they've ever actually had any real advantage, Canon's sensors have always been competitive in the ISO range where their cameras are used most).

Lenses, lenses, lenses.
"Glass is forever"
Canon is the best photographic equipment maker in the world and there is no sign of that changing any time soon.
Nikon is still #2 in this area but they won't be for long at the current pace.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, however much the move away from Canon is a surprising industry trend, it's downright shocking to see how quickly Nikon is failing. At the rate their business is shrinking there has to be two people leaving Nikon for every one person selling off their Canon gear.
Or more accurately, there's probably two Nikon shooters adopting Sony and neglecting Nikon for every one Canon shooter "jumping ship".
It's important to note that Sony's growth isn't industry growth, it's cannibalization within the industry and Canon is actually moving forward largely unscathed. The mirrorless market is still too confused to be attractive to the majority of customers, and as we've seen from the growth of EOS-M over the years, Canon's own offerings in that space are quite satisfactory to the average consumer.
The problem for Sony is their rapid growth cannot be maintained, as soon as enough tech enthusiasts have played with the latest fancy trinkets they'll move on to the next thing.

The Canon ecosystem still has too many capabilities that no-one else has, it's like comparing the U.S. Military to any other army in the world. Sure, some countries are developing some neat new stuff, but in terms of operational capabilities no-one questions who the world leader is.

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Re: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2018, 08:44:14 PM »