June 22, 2018, 03:31:23 PM

Author Topic: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak  (Read 15065 times)

old-pr-pix

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2018, 09:28:27 PM »
Both Nikon and Canon initially depended on Kodak for early generation digital cameras.  Kodak was just so focused on a business model that relied on consumables (film, paper, chemicals) that they just couldn't bring themselves to fully embrace the digital transition.  It basically cost them the company. 

The transition from dSLR to ML isn't the same fundamental change in business model, it is simply replacing one component part for a different part.  Not nearly as dramatic a shift as what Kodak faced.

I agree Canon is more likely looking for other business opportunities to offset the future lack of growth they anticipate in cameras in general.  There are only so many big whites the market can absorb given they seem to have a good 10-15 year life expectancy.  Not a lot of replacement opportunity.  Bodies are approaching a similar plateau as technology evolution slows.
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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2018, 09:28:27 PM »

unfocused

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2018, 10:08:18 PM »
Several years ago, Canon Price Watch compared the return on Canon "L" lenses to the stock market. At the time, the lenses were a better investment.

Thinking about Kodak's new cryptocurrency, maybe instead of "Canon heading down the same track as Kodak" could it be "Kodak heading down the same track as Canon."  :)

slclick

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2018, 10:30:43 PM »
Oh, new ideas like weather proofing your Sony except for the bottom when a large % of users carry on a plate/tripod connection mounted strap (Upside down)...this is like fish in a barrel, too easy and fun. Insert doomed acronym
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dak723

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2018, 10:56:54 PM »

Kodak made DSLR's for Canon?  Which ones?  They did sell sensors to almost everyone.  I owned a Kodak DSLR, but they only made the digital back, not the camera.

Quote
From Wikipedia:

...Kodak's subsequent models integrated the digital module with the camera body more thoroughly, and included LCD preview screens and removable batteries. The DCS 500 series of 1998 was also based on the Canon EOS-1N, and comprised the 2-megapixel DCS 520 and the 6-megapixel DCS 560, which initially had a suggested retail price of $28,500.[7] These models were also sold by Canon, as the Canon D2000 and D6000 respectively, and were the first digital SLRs sold under the Canon name.

Obviously, this was before DSLRs had a price that made them available for the average consumer.  But Kodak continued to make DSLRs:

Quote
Kodak concluded the initial DCS range with the DCS 700 series, which comprised the 2-megapixel DCS 720x, the 6-megapixel DCS 760, and the 6-megapixel DCS 760m, which had a monochrome sensor. By the time of launch, Kodak faced competition from the popular Nikon D1 and Nikon D1x,[8] which were physically smaller and cheaper. The DCS 760's initial list price was $8,000.

Kodak final generation of DCS cameras was launched with the Kodak DCS Pro 14n, a 14-megapixel full-frame digital SLR, in 2002, and continued with the upgraded DCS PRO SLR/n in 2004. These two cameras were based on a Nikon F80 body, and were considerably more compact than previous Kodaks.

At this point, of course, Nikon and Canon got into the game and Kodak could no longer compete - because they didn't make lenses.  Why buy a Kodak and then get Nikon lenses when you can just get a Nikon with lens?  People often ask, why doesn't anyone make an EF mount camera  to use Canon lenses?  I think history shows us that making cameras but not lenses doesn't work.  Lenses without cameras...that works, witness Tamron and Sigma.  Kodak continued to make Non-DSLR compact digital cameras and led the market until at least 2005 in the US.  But once all the camera companies got into the digital game, there was nothing that Kodak had that made them stand out among all the competition.

Again, it is easy to dump on Kodak and say they just didn't adapt to the transition from film to digital, but they made most of the initial cameras and a lot of the sensors, too.  But it was not nearly enough to offset the almost complete loss of film and related products because there was no digital substitute for them. 

Antono Refa

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2018, 01:39:09 AM »
Modern refrigerators work well enough, but they're no better than a fridge from 30 years ago (and often worse).

When my grandparents passed away, one of their daughters took the refrigerator. At this point there was a short discussion of how old it is. They got it close to another memorable event, so the answer was the refrigerator was close to 50 years old. It was in perfect working order, and never had to be fixed.

No wonder manufacturers are implementing planned obsolescence.

Don Haines

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2018, 07:07:33 AM »

Again, it is easy to dump on Kodak and say they just didn't adapt to the transition from film to digital, but they made most of the initial cameras and a lot of the sensors, too.  But it was not nearly enough to offset the almost complete loss of film and related products because there was no digital substitute for them.

Exactly!

The vast bulk of Kodak was paper, film, and chemicals. It vanished overnight and they were left with huge amounts of infrastructure which had suddenly turned from being assets into liabilities. Everyone knew digital was coming, but the speed at which the p/s cameras took over was astounding.
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Talys

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2018, 08:45:48 AM »

Again, it is easy to dump on Kodak and say they just didn't adapt to the transition from film to digital, but they made most of the initial cameras and a lot of the sensors, too.  But it was not nearly enough to offset the almost complete loss of film and related products because there was no digital substitute for them.

Exactly!

The vast bulk of Kodak was paper, film, and chemicals. It vanished overnight and they were left with huge amounts of infrastructure which had suddenly turned from being assets into liabilities. Everyone knew digital was coming, but the speed at which the p/s cameras took over was astounding.

Therein lies the crux of it.

A portion of internet forum experts believe that it will be at the same speed at which EF, EFS lenses and DSLRs will vanish, with EFM being too nascent to fill the gaps.  Some people hypothesize that Canon will turn into another Kodak because by 2020, DSLRs will be specialty devices.

I don't agree with that assessment at all, because I don't think film vs digital is a good comparison with DSLR versus mirrorless.

Digital vs film had two massive benefits: photos no longer cost anything to develop and you could see your results right away.  For those who were never film photography enthusiasts, it's hard to overstate those two benefits.  I spent enough money on Ilford paper and chemicals back then to buy a really nice piece of camera gear every year.  Because of these benefits, it was easy to look early shortcomings of digital, and then to rapidly buy significantly upgraded models.

The benefits between mirrorless versus DSLR are much more dubious if you're not interested in videography.  For some photography tasks, mirrorless are a disadvantage (like wildlife/sports and flash/strobe photography), while for others, mirrorless have some nice advantages (like candids and street photography).  But in either case, it's nothing near the difference between digital and film. 

And finally, one of the most often stated benefits, size and weight, are practically all in consumer lenses, with pro lenses being as large or larger than DSLR counterparts, making the slimmer bodies an ergonomic disadvantage.

So, will mirrorless continue to gain traction?  Absolutely, I think so.  The lure of WYSIWIG is high, and the concept of grabbing frames off a camcorder is an appealing one.  It's not a fad, and it's not going away.  But at the same time, it's not a silver bullet and I think that DSLRs will remain more popular for a variety of tasks for the perceivable future.

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2018, 08:45:48 AM »

LDS

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2018, 08:57:24 AM »
The vast bulk of Kodak was paper, film, and chemicals. It vanished overnight and they were left with huge amounts of infrastructure which had suddenly turned from being assets into liabilities. Everyone knew digital was coming, but the speed at which the p/s cameras took over was astounding.

Kodak also made a bet that people would still need to print their digital images to store, share and show them around. The smartphone (with its larger screen) and "social" sites  destroyed most of that market too. It's no surprise that Kodak had to file for bankruptcy in 2012, a few years after the successful launches of the iPhone and Facebook (yet, the Fujifilm Instax cameras sell well)

But that paradigm shift came from outside the photo industry, and I guess many executive at Kodak couldn't see it coming.

And what was left of the consumer image printing industry also saw new competitors like Canon, Epson and HP - labs inkjet prints became on par with chemical ones.

LDS

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2018, 09:37:40 AM »
I don't agree with that assessment at all, because I don't think film vs digital is a good comparison with DSLR versus mirrorless.

Of course it's not. Kodak suddenly found itself with a large chemical know-how and manufacturing capabilities that became basically useless, and a remunerative consumables business which disappeared quickly. Its organization was designed around that business model, and changing wasn't easy. It would have needed a big reorganization and downsizing, something always hard to propose to boards and shareholders - who usually can't see beyond the next quarter - until it's too late.

Sure, the P&S and low-end DSRLs market has been mostly eroded by smartphones, but that is a common issue for every company in the sector, no one could take advantage of it over others, even Sony smartphones business isn't good.

Adding an EVF or 4K is not at all outside Canon know-how and manufacturing capabilities. In the 1980s, Canon was late to adopt TTL and AF. Despite that, the T70 did sell well. Then came the T90 and EOS/EF line. More innovative brands no longer exist today.

It looks sometimes Canon prefer a few big long jumps instead of many shorter ones. It could be some conservatism among management, or a market strategy. Till now, it worked.

Camera spec sheets don't automatically translates in more sales. Especially for people who don't buy a "body", but a "system", and aren't so willingly to replace it fully for features they may not need.

Don Haines

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2018, 10:02:34 AM »
The vast bulk of Kodak was paper, film, and chemicals. It vanished overnight and they were left with huge amounts of infrastructure which had suddenly turned from being assets into liabilities. Everyone knew digital was coming, but the speed at which the p/s cameras took over was astounding.

Kodak also made a bet that people would still need to print their digital images to store, share and show them around. The smartphone (with its larger screen) and "social" sites  destroyed most of that market too. It's no surprise that Kodak had to file for bankruptcy in 2012, a few years after the successful launches of the iPhone and Facebook (yet, the Fujifilm Instax cameras sell well)

But that paradigm shift came from outside the photo industry, and I guess many executive at Kodak couldn't see it coming.

And what was left of the consumer image printing industry also saw new competitors like Canon, Epson and HP - labs inkjet prints became on par with chemical ones.
You are right about that..... digital displays severely cut the market for prints, and photo printers captured most of it. The money to be made printing shifted quickly from developing/printing to ink cartridges......
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Don Haines

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2018, 10:05:32 AM »

Adding an EVF or 4K is not at all outside Canon know-how and manufacturing capabilities.

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old-pr-pix

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2018, 10:13:40 AM »
Kodak also made a bet that people would still need to print their digital images to store, share and show them around. The smartphone (with its larger screen) and "social" sites  destroyed most of that market too.
The fact a smartphone is camera, video handy-cam, and photo album/video player all combined is an often overlook factor in the destruction of the P/S market.  Add cloud storage and it has an automated back-up system as well. 

While serious enthusiasts and pros will argue the relative merits of dSLR v. ML, everyone else just uses their phone.  If someone asks you to show them that great photo you took of 'Aunt Millie' last year can you call it up on the back of your camera?  No, well maybe that's a problem.

Dropping the mirrorbox is one more step away from mechanical parts mastery shifting towards reliance on electronics/software to do the same job.  It also provides more physical space to add additional processing.  Maybe someday 'Aunt Millie' will again appear on your camera screen.
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Don Haines

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2018, 10:20:04 AM »
Kodak was killed by momentum and a disruptive technology.

They were heavily invested in infrastructure that suddenly became worthless. When that happens, you can’t get rid of it because nobody will buy it from you.

Imagine you are Ford cars. You have a series of factories and suppliers. You have knowledge and experience. You also have pensioned workers, loans, financing, inventory, and a worldwide network of dealers and parts, as well as an obligation to service what you have sold.

HarryFilm (he is a genius......) invents a transporter pod.... now instead of driving in to work and suffering through rush hour traffic, you can instantly teleport.  Car sales plummet. Just like two hour printing vanished, so do the cars on the highways. Ford, despite knowing what is happening, is powerless to stop it and because of momentum, can not change quickly enough, and even if they could, Harry has captured the market.

The thing about disruptive technologies, is that they are disruptive. Mirrorless is not a disruptive technology, it is an incremental improvement.
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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2018, 10:20:04 AM »

LDS

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2018, 11:24:01 AM »
If someone asks you to show them that great photo you took of 'Aunt Millie' last year can you call it up on the back of your camera?  No, well maybe that's a problem.

Why? If there are more comfortable devices to show images - smartphones, tablets, TVs, computers -, devices you always have at hand, why should you use your camera? How large could become the display on a camera before it impacts usability?

Why put your $4K camera in the hands of Uncle Bob, known for his clumsiness, just to show him a photo of Aunt Mary? Or to show your last travel at the pub after a few beers?

Many devices are only useful at the creation stage, then there are better ones to share and consume the results.

dak723

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2018, 11:41:46 AM »
Kodak was killed by momentum and a disruptive technology.

They were heavily invested in infrastructure that suddenly became worthless. When that happens, you can’t get rid of it because nobody will buy it from you.

Imagine you are Ford cars. You have a series of factories and suppliers. You have knowledge and experience. You also have pensioned workers, loans, financing, inventory, and a worldwide network of dealers and parts, as well as an obligation to service what you have sold.

HarryFilm (he is a genius......) invents a transporter pod.... now instead of driving in to work and suffering through rush hour traffic, you can instantly teleport.  Car sales plummet. Just like two hour printing vanished, so do the cars on the highways. Ford, despite knowing what is happening, is powerless to stop it and because of momentum, can not change quickly enough, and even if they could, Harry has captured the market.

The thing about disruptive technologies, is that they are disruptive. Mirrorless is not a disruptive technology, it is an incremental improvement.

Well said.  Digital cameras REPLACED film.  For all practical purposes ENDING the need for film, paper, chemicals, photo processing labs and stores.  If mirrorless replaces DSLRs, 99% of the camera and all accessories will remain the same.  All it ends is the need for a mirror and associated mechanical parts. 

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Re: ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2018, 11:41:46 AM »