June 23, 2018, 06:15:02 PM

Author Topic: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin  (Read 15391 times)

tron

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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2018, 10:46:56 AM »
I bought a 40D Nov 2007. It was my only DSLR until June 2009 when it was stolen.
Then, I bought my 5DII (Jun 2009) and sold it Feb 2014.
It was my only DSLR until Nov 2012 when I bought a 5DIII (and I continued using it in parallel afterwards).
So for many years I was exchanging lenses at the outside without having any dust issues.
The same with the rest of my DSLRs. No dust issues. True I was not a pro but still I shot around 20K with my 5DII and the lens exchange was very frequent (16-35, 24-105, 70-200, 300, TS-E17 for example)

By the way right now my mostly used camera is a 7D2 with about 3 times this number of 5DII shots and I do not need to have the sensor cleaned.

I like it this way  ;)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 10:50:24 AM by tron »

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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2018, 10:46:56 AM »

Ian_of_glos

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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2018, 11:09:51 AM »
Thank you for another set of excellent reviews. As always, your reviews are well presented and carefully constructed.
As a Canon 5D mk 4 owner I would be interested to hear why you have kept your Canon and why you still use it in addition to your Sony A7Riii. Do you use the Sony for some applications and the Canon for others, and if so which are the most significant factors in determining which system you are going to choose for any particular shoot?
I accept that the Sony A7Riii is an excellent camera, but overall I am very happy with my 5D mk4. So what I am really trying to decide is whether the Sony is so much better than the Canon that it worth going through all the pain and expense of changing my camera system.

How is the 5DIV holding you back?
It is not. I am delighted with my 5D Mk4 in every way and in many ways it exceeds my expectations. The problem is that I read review after review saying how much better the A7Riii is and how Canon is lagging behind the competition. I am not sure whether to take these reviews seriously, or even if the differences are that significant - hence my original question to Dustin.

bwud

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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2018, 11:19:54 AM »
For another anecdote, excluding film cameras I’ve owned (all purchased near market entry): Olympus E-1, Canon 350D, Canon 40D, Canon 5Dii, Canon 7D,and Canon 5Diii. I still own the 5Diii. I’ve also owned Sony A7Rii (my first mirrorless interchangeable lens camera) and currently own a Sony A7Riii.

Of them, aside from blowing air and the ultrasonic function, I’ve only cleaned the 40D and 5Diii, using sensor swabs from photographic solutions. The 5Dii was serviced, and I believe canon cleaned its sensor then.

I used the first Sony for more than two years using only prime lenses. Suffice it to say I changed them a lot. Occasionally I’d get dust, but it was nothing a combination of the vibration feature and an air rocket couldn’t manage. I started using zoom lenses with the A7Riii, and while I do change them in the field I’ve yet to experience unmanageable dust.

In my experience, the lack of a mirror as protection of the sensor is a non-issue. YMMV.

Thank you for another set of excellent reviews. As always, your reviews are well presented and carefully constructed.
As a Canon 5D mk 4 owner I would be interested to hear why you have kept your Canon and why you still use it in addition to your Sony A7Riii. Do you use the Sony for some applications and the Canon for others, and if so which are the most significant factors in determining which system you are going to choose for any particular shoot?
I accept that the Sony A7Riii is an excellent camera, but overall I am very happy with my 5D mk4. So what I am really trying to decide is whether the Sony is so much better than the Canon that it worth going through all the pain and expense of changing my camera system.

How is the 5DIV holding you back?
It is not. I am delighted with my 5D Mk4 in every way and in many ways it exceeds my expectations. The problem is that I read review after review saying how much better the A7Riii is and how Canon is lagging behind the competition. I am not sure whether to take these reviews seriously, or even if the differences are that significant - hence my original question to Dustin.

i wouldn’t put much concern on reviews suggesting any one modern camera is leaps and bounds behind another, especially in class competitors.

If you were to get an a7riii, you’d gain some things (zoom in the viewfinder, IS in the body, maybe some video perks, etc), and you’d lose some things (optical viewfinder, arguably more comfortable body, DPAF for video, etc). A reasonable person probably won’t trade them based on overall performance at the camera level. It will come to things like personal preference (comfort holding, comfort with backlit screens), the overall ecosystem (available native lenses, lights), etc.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 11:26:20 AM by bwud »

BillB

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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2018, 11:36:19 AM »
Thank you for another set of excellent reviews. As always, your reviews are well presented and carefully constructed.
As a Canon 5D mk 4 owner I would be interested to hear why you have kept your Canon and why you still use it in addition to your Sony A7Riii. Do you use the Sony for some applications and the Canon for others, and if so which are the most significant factors in determining which system you are going to choose for any particular shoot?
I accept that the Sony A7Riii is an excellent camera, but overall I am very happy with my 5D mk4. So what I am really trying to decide is whether the Sony is so much better than the Canon that it worth going through all the pain and expense of changing my camera system.

The geekhead blogosphere is a strange and wonderful place.  Doesn't seem to have much to do with actually using cameras though.

How is the 5DIV holding you back?
It is not. I am delighted with my 5D Mk4 in every way and in many ways it exceeds my expectations. The problem is that I read review after review saying how much better the A7Riii is and how Canon is lagging behind the competition. I am not sure whether to take these reviews seriously, or even if the differences are that significant - hence my original question to Dustin.

AlanF

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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2018, 11:37:57 AM »

Thanks for the links to those interesting reviews. There is a big killer for me at the end of the A9 - dust on the sensor. The mirrorless sensors are not protected by the mirror so Tyler is scared of changing lenses during a shoot because of the amount of dust picked up which has spoilt many of his shoots, which he doesn't find with his 5DIV.

I think being that worried about sensor dust is a little unnecessary, all you have to do is keep a little rocket blower in your bag if you need it. Since the sensor is so close to the mount you can get a good look at it if you need to. As opposed to a DSLR sensor deep in the mirror box which is harder to reach and check for dust. And anyone saying dust can spoil a shoot is being a little dramatic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPP-2c7sDYA

Play the video from 8:50 to 10:35. Starts with: "A huge thing that that nobody talks about that much is sensor dust .....
My inclination is to take seriously a reviewer who sees an actual phenomenon and describes it in depth.
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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2018, 11:51:19 AM »
Play the video from 8:50 to 10:35. Starts with: "A huge thing that that nobody talks about that much is sensor dust .....
My inclination is to take seriously a reviewer who sees an actual phenomenon and describes it in depth.

Yeah dust can be a problem if you don't know what you are doing or don't take proper precautions. This is an image from my 5D in 2006 (the original) my 2nd DSLR, first day of a 2 week trip got a ton of dust from changing lenses in windy conditions by the water. The 5D wasn't a mirrorless camera, I didn't bring a rocket blower so I had to do a ton of spotting. Dust can get in any camera. I've used all sorts of Canon DSLRs and now 3 different Sonys and dust isn't any more or any less of an issue for me. I like that I can see the sensor now.

AlanF

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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2018, 12:18:32 PM »
Play the video from 8:50 to 10:35. Starts with: "A huge thing that that nobody talks about that much is sensor dust .....
My inclination is to take seriously a reviewer who sees an actual phenomenon and describes it in depth.

Yeah dust can be a problem if you don't know what you are doing or don't take proper precautions. This is an image from my 5D in 2006 (the original) my 2nd DSLR, first day of a 2 week trip got a ton of dust from changing lenses in windy conditions by the water. The 5D wasn't a mirrorless camera, I didn't bring a rocket blower so I had to do a ton of spotting. Dust can get in any camera. I've used all sorts of Canon DSLRs and now 3 different Sonys and dust isn't any more or any less of an issue for me. I like that I can see the sensor now.

The Canon Integrated Cleaning System was introduced in 2006 - http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/eos_integrated_cleaning_system.do
Your original 5D, introduced in 2005, predated ICS. Further, the fluorine coating to repel dust wasn't introduced until the 5DII, and there have been subsequent modifications to prevent dust sticking. You original 5D is not a good example to cite for dust on a sensor since there have been tons of improvements in the last 13 years.
5D IV, 5DS R, 400mm DO II, 1.4xTC III, 2xTC III, EF 1.8 STM,  EF 24-105, 100-400 II, EF-S 15-85, Sigma 150-600mm C, EOS-M5 15-45, f/2 22, 11-22, Samyang 8mm f/2.8 fisheye: sold 7D II, EOS-M, Powershot G3 X,  Sigma 10-20, EF 300/2.8 II, 70-200/4 IS.

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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2018, 12:18:32 PM »

3kramd5

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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2018, 12:55:26 PM »
Play the video from 8:50 to 10:35. Starts with: "A huge thing that that nobody talks about that much is sensor dust .....
My inclination is to take seriously a reviewer who sees an actual phenomenon and describes it in depth.

Yeah dust can be a problem if you don't know what you are doing or don't take proper precautions. This is an image from my 5D in 2006 (the original) my 2nd DSLR, first day of a 2 week trip got a ton of dust from changing lenses in windy conditions by the water. The 5D wasn't a mirrorless camera, I didn't bring a rocket blower so I had to do a ton of spotting. Dust can get in any camera. I've used all sorts of Canon DSLRs and now 3 different Sonys and dust isn't any more or any less of an issue for me. I like that I can see the sensor now.

The Canon Integrated Cleaning System was introduced in 2006 - http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/eos_integrated_cleaning_system.do
Your original 5D, introduced in 2005, predated ICS. Further, the fluorine coating to repel dust wasn't introduced until the 5DII, and there have been subsequent modifications to prevent dust sticking. You original 5D is not a good example to cite for dust on a sensor since there have been tons of improvements in the last 13 years.

Perhaps, but it is certainly appropriate when discussing how much influence the presence of a mirror has on protecting a sensor, or the inset of a sensor within the body for that matter.

Those later improvements, which made a significant difference, are not unique to SLR.

ecqns

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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2018, 01:09:34 PM »
Play the video from 8:50 to 10:35. Starts with: "A huge thing that that nobody talks about that much is sensor dust .....
My inclination is to take seriously a reviewer who sees an actual phenomenon and describes it in depth.

Yeah dust can be a problem if you don't know what you are doing or don't take proper precautions. This is an image from my 5D in 2006 (the original) my 2nd DSLR, first day of a 2 week trip got a ton of dust from changing lenses in windy conditions by the water. The 5D wasn't a mirrorless camera, I didn't bring a rocket blower so I had to do a ton of spotting. Dust can get in any camera. I've used all sorts of Canon DSLRs and now 3 different Sonys and dust isn't any more or any less of an issue for me. I like that I can see the sensor now.

The Canon Integrated Cleaning System was introduced in 2006 - http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/eos_integrated_cleaning_system.do
Your original 5D, introduced in 2005, predated ICS. Further, the fluorine coating to repel dust wasn't introduced until the 5DII, and there have been subsequent modifications to prevent dust sticking. You original 5D is not a good example to cite for dust on a sensor since there have been tons of improvements in the last 13 years.

Perhaps, but it is certainly appropriate when discussing how much influence the presence of a mirror has on protecting a sensor, or the inset of a sensor within the body for that matter.

Those later improvements, which made a significant difference, are not unique to SLR.

Right just like every other DSLR and Mirrorless has had sensor shake or something like it since then. Point is a mirror isn't going to protect your sensor all of the time. Seems like some are just reaching to find faults with non-Canon cameras.

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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2018, 01:24:20 PM »
Play the video from 8:50 to 10:35. Starts with: "A huge thing that that nobody talks about that much is sensor dust .....
My inclination is to take seriously a reviewer who sees an actual phenomenon and describes it in depth.

Yeah dust can be a problem if you don't know what you are doing or don't take proper precautions. This is an image from my 5D in 2006 (the original) my 2nd DSLR, first day of a 2 week trip got a ton of dust from changing lenses in windy conditions by the water. The 5D wasn't a mirrorless camera, I didn't bring a rocket blower so I had to do a ton of spotting. Dust can get in any camera. I've used all sorts of Canon DSLRs and now 3 different Sonys and dust isn't any more or any less of an issue for me. I like that I can see the sensor now.

The Canon Integrated Cleaning System was introduced in 2006 - http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/eos_integrated_cleaning_system.do
Your original 5D, introduced in 2005, predated ICS. Further, the fluorine coating to repel dust wasn't introduced until the 5DII, and there have been subsequent modifications to prevent dust sticking. You original 5D is not a good example to cite for dust on a sensor since there have been tons of improvements in the last 13 years.

Perhaps, but it is certainly appropriate when discussing how much influence the presence of a mirror has on protecting a sensor, or the inset of a sensor within the body for that matter.

Those later improvements, which made a significant difference, are not unique to SLR.

Of course they are not unique to SLR. It is pretty pointless, however, comparing the dust resistance of a state-of-the-art modern sensor with an ancient one to evaluate the modern mirrorless vs the modern mirror box, as is being done in the review. The mirror is protective against dust for the 5DIV vs A9, and that is the main point of Tyler.
5D IV, 5DS R, 400mm DO II, 1.4xTC III, 2xTC III, EF 1.8 STM,  EF 24-105, 100-400 II, EF-S 15-85, Sigma 150-600mm C, EOS-M5 15-45, f/2 22, 11-22, Samyang 8mm f/2.8 fisheye: sold 7D II, EOS-M, Powershot G3 X,  Sigma 10-20, EF 300/2.8 II, 70-200/4 IS.

3kramd5

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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2018, 05:19:08 PM »
Play the video from 8:50 to 10:35. Starts with: "A huge thing that that nobody talks about that much is sensor dust .....
My inclination is to take seriously a reviewer who sees an actual phenomenon and describes it in depth.

Yeah dust can be a problem if you don't know what you are doing or don't take proper precautions. This is an image from my 5D in 2006 (the original) my 2nd DSLR, first day of a 2 week trip got a ton of dust from changing lenses in windy conditions by the water. The 5D wasn't a mirrorless camera, I didn't bring a rocket blower so I had to do a ton of spotting. Dust can get in any camera. I've used all sorts of Canon DSLRs and now 3 different Sonys and dust isn't any more or any less of an issue for me. I like that I can see the sensor now.

The Canon Integrated Cleaning System was introduced in 2006 - http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/eos_integrated_cleaning_system.do
Your original 5D, introduced in 2005, predated ICS. Further, the fluorine coating to repel dust wasn't introduced until the 5DII, and there have been subsequent modifications to prevent dust sticking. You original 5D is not a good example to cite for dust on a sensor since there have been tons of improvements in the last 13 years.

Perhaps, but it is certainly appropriate when discussing how much influence the presence of a mirror has on protecting a sensor, or the inset of a sensor within the body for that matter.

Those later improvements, which made a significant difference, are not unique to SLR.

Of course they are not unique to SLR. It is pretty pointless, however, comparing the dust resistance of a state-of-the-art modern sensor with an ancient one to evaluate the modern mirrorless vs the modern mirror box, as is being done in the review. The mirror is protective against dust for the 5DIV vs A9, and that is the main point of Tyler.

I’m willing to stipulate that it might be, since the mirror provides additional surfaces where dust can settle. However I’m also well aware that the mirror doesn’t prevent dust ingress into the compartment (it’s hardly a “tortuous path,” which is the terminology often used in the design of electronics where sand and dust are of concern), and that any dust in the compartment has a propensity to move, no matter the material lining the compartment, when the mirror actuates.

If a mirror offers protection, it’s unquantifiable without lab testing, but I’m betting marginal relative to other methods. Anecdotally, I found my mirrorless camera (sold my A7Rii when I bought a 1Dx) no more prone to dust than any SLR I’ve ever owned.

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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2018, 04:35:33 AM »
Play the video from 8:50 to 10:35. Starts with: "A huge thing that that nobody talks about that much is sensor dust .....
My inclination is to take seriously a reviewer who sees an actual phenomenon and describes it in depth.

Yeah dust can be a problem if you don't know what you are doing or don't take proper precautions. This is an image from my 5D in 2006 (the original) my 2nd DSLR, first day of a 2 week trip got a ton of dust from changing lenses in windy conditions by the water. The 5D wasn't a mirrorless camera, I didn't bring a rocket blower so I had to do a ton of spotting. Dust can get in any camera. I've used all sorts of Canon DSLRs and now 3 different Sonys and dust isn't any more or any less of an issue for me. I like that I can see the sensor now.

The Canon Integrated Cleaning System was introduced in 2006 - http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/eos_integrated_cleaning_system.do
Your original 5D, introduced in 2005, predated ICS. Further, the fluorine coating to repel dust wasn't introduced until the 5DII, and there have been subsequent modifications to prevent dust sticking. You original 5D is not a good example to cite for dust on a sensor since there have been tons of improvements in the last 13 years.

Perhaps, but it is certainly appropriate when discussing how much influence the presence of a mirror has on protecting a sensor, or the inset of a sensor within the body for that matter.

Those later improvements, which made a significant difference, are not unique to SLR.

Of course they are not unique to SLR. It is pretty pointless, however, comparing the dust resistance of a state-of-the-art modern sensor with an ancient one to evaluate the modern mirrorless vs the modern mirror box, as is being done in the review. The mirror is protective against dust for the 5DIV vs A9, and that is the main point of Tyler.

I’m willing to stipulate that it might be, since the mirror provides additional surfaces where dust can settle. However I’m also well aware that the mirror doesn’t prevent dust ingress into the compartment (it’s hardly a “tortuous path,” which is the terminology often used in the design of electronics where sand and dust are of concern), and that any dust in the compartment has a propensity to move, no matter the material lining the compartment, when the mirror actuates.

If a mirror offers protection, it’s unquantifiable without lab testing, but I’m betting marginal relative to other methods. Anecdotally, I found my mirrorless camera (sold my A7Rii when I bought a 1Dx) no more prone to dust than any SLR I’ve ever owned.

A highly experienced professional who shoots both Sony and Canon states at length and with examples how his 5DIV has so much better dust resistance that it is the one factor that stops him going over completely to Sony as he needs to change lenses frequently in the field. I use a mirrorless for some of my shooting, an M5 following on from an M, and fortunately it would seem rarely change lenses out of doors and I have no problems with dust. I find his experience extremely useful as I have been thinking of having another system for nature photography and it's made me consider options and types of lenses for use outdoors. Anecdotal evidence evidence should remain what it is, anecdotal. Quantitative measurements are what I do for my living as a scientist, but I don't need means and standard deviations to choose between what I can see or don't see and doesn't need quantifying.
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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2018, 11:22:36 AM »
That’s fine, just so long as we’re clear that a professional’s experiences are no less anecdotal than anyone else’s. He asserts that the dust was there *because* of the lack of the mirror, but that’s merely conjecture on his part. He didn’t state that he changed lenses on his SLR at the same time as or under the same conditions as his A9.

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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2018, 11:22:36 AM »

AlanF

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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2018, 12:38:50 PM »
He's not writing a scientific paper, he's offering advice based on his experience, and I shall take that advice into consideration in my choice of gear suitable for my purposes. 
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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2018, 01:02:11 PM »
Dustin,

Thanks for such a thorough and well-written review.  I'm curious: what do you find as the autofocus speed difference between adapted and native lens on A7R3 using the MC-11?

Thanks!

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Re: Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2018, 01:02:11 PM »