June 23, 2018, 04:52:06 AM

Author Topic: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera  (Read 26108 times)

MayaTlab

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #165 on: March 01, 2018, 10:18:45 AM »
...right now there is no way Canon can price their upcoming FF mirrorless camera higher than $1500 or so with what they've shown they can produce so far.

Don't be ridiculous.  Canon can —and almost certainly will— price their first FF MILC much higher than that.  You may not buy one as priced, but Canon doesn't care, even a little bit, about what you do.

None of Canon's current FF sensors are fast enough to provide something that's on par with Sony's A7III in many areas of performance (live view feed in continuous mode, FF 4K, etc.). The issue here isn't just in terms of IQ, it affects operational qualities. That could very well improve in the future.

BTW in Europe Canon has gotten the memo. The M50 is priced at around $580 at launch. At this price it's unbeatable, in fact it's terrific value for money IMO. Higher than that it runs into problems, as the M5 did since it's been a flop here.

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #165 on: March 01, 2018, 10:18:45 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #166 on: March 01, 2018, 10:32:06 AM »
...right now there is no way Canon can price their upcoming FF mirrorless camera higher than $1500 or so with what they've shown they can produce so far.

Don't be ridiculous.  Canon can —and almost certainly will— price their first FF MILC much higher than that.  You may not buy one as priced, but Canon doesn't care, even a little bit, about what you do.

None of Canon's current FF sensors are fast enough to provide something that's on par with Sony's A7III in many areas of performance (live view feed in continuous mode, FF 4K, etc.). The issue here isn't just in terms of IQ, it affects operational qualities. That could very well improve in the future.

BTW in Europe Canon has gotten the memo. The M50 is priced at around $580 at launch. At this price it's unbeatable, in fact it's terrific value for money IMO. Higher than that it runs into problems, as the M5 did since it's been a flop here.

The a7III is $2K. It's nice that you claim it's so much better than a Canon FF sensor can be, but sensor ≠ camera.  Lots of people claim that the a7RIII is far superior to the 5DIV, but the 5DIV costs more.  And as I pointed out earlier, Canon sells more FF ILCs than Sony.

As for the M5 being a flop in Europe, on Amazon in Italy, the M5 sits at #5 and #8 (with/without kit lens) on the MILC bestseller list.  #1/#2 are GoPro knockoffs, and the M100 is #3 (with Fuji and Panasonic MILCs rounding out the top 10). Are you saying that Italy isn't part of Europe? Or that France represents all of Europe? Serious hubris. Given that Sony MILCs don't even crack the Top 10 in Italy, should we say that Sony is a flop in Europe?
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tron

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #167 on: March 01, 2018, 10:45:25 AM »
...right now there is no way Canon can price their upcoming FF mirrorless camera higher than $1500 or so with what they've shown they can produce so far.

Don't be ridiculous.  Canon can —and almost certainly will— price their first FF MILC much higher than that.  You may not buy one as priced, but Canon doesn't care, even a little bit, about what you do.

None of Canon's current FF sensors are fast enough to provide something that's on par with Sony's A7III in many areas of performance (live view feed in continuous mode, FF 4K, etc.). The issue here isn't just in terms of IQ, it affects operational qualities. That could very well improve in the future.

BTW in Europe Canon has gotten the memo. The M50 is priced at around $580 at launch. At this price it's unbeatable, in fact it's terrific value for money IMO. Higher than that it runs into problems, as the M5 did since it's been a flop here.

The a7III is $2K. It's nice that you claim it's so much better than a Canon FF sensor can be, but sensor ≠ camera.  Lots of people claim that the a7RIII is far superior to the 5DIV, but the 5DIV costs more.  And as I pointed out earlier, Canon sells more FF ILCs than Sony.

As for the M5 being a flop in Europe, on Amazon in Italy, the M5 sits at #5 and #8 (with/without kit lens) on the MILC bestseller list.  #1/#2 are GoPro knockoffs, and the M100 is #3 (with Fuji and Panasonic MILCs rounding out the top 10). Are you saying that Italy isn't part of Europe? Or that France represents all of Europe? Serious hubris. Given that Sony MILCs don't even crack the Top 10 in Italy, should we say that Sony is a flop in Europe?
+1 plus the "costs more" amount beween Sony A7RIII and Canon 5DMkIV is merely 101$ in current B&H prices! And "much better" is highly subjective. My 5DIV works perfectly OK with my ... Canon lenses ranging from 14mm to 500mm  ;D and produces excellent results in many variable conditions (landscape astrophotography, museum and churches interiors, birding, etc).

MayaTlab

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #168 on: March 01, 2018, 10:48:51 AM »
...right now there is no way Canon can price their upcoming FF mirrorless camera higher than $1500 or so with what they've shown they can produce so far.

Don't be ridiculous.  Canon can —and almost certainly will— price their first FF MILC much higher than that.  You may not buy one as priced, but Canon doesn't care, even a little bit, about what you do.

None of Canon's current FF sensors are fast enough to provide something that's on par with Sony's A7III in many areas of performance (live view feed in continuous mode, FF 4K, etc.). The issue here isn't just in terms of IQ, it affects operational qualities. That could very well improve in the future.

BTW in Europe Canon has gotten the memo. The M50 is priced at around $580 at launch. At this price it's unbeatable, in fact it's terrific value for money IMO. Higher than that it runs into problems, as the M5 did since it's been a flop here.

The a7III is $2K. It's nice that you claim it's so much better than a Canon FF sensor can be, but sensor ≠ camera.  Lots of people claim that the a7RIII is far superior to the 5DIV, but the 5DIV costs more.  And as I pointed out earlier, Canon sells more FF ILCs than Sony.

As for the M5 being a flop in Europe, on Amazon in Italy, the M5 sits at #5 and #8 (with/without kit lens) on the MILC bestseller list.  #1/#2 are GoPro knockoffs, and the M100 is #3 (with Fuji and Panasonic MILCs rounding out the top 10). Are you saying that Italy isn't part of Europe? Or that France represents all of Europe? Serious hubris. Given that Sony MILCs don't even crack the Top 10 in Italy, should we say that Sony is a flop in Europe?

The Amazon ranking puts the X-pro 2 graphite edition at €2000 in ninth position, and doesn't even list the X-T2 out of 100 posiitons. So please allow me to cast serious doubts about its accuracy. In fact with that alone it looks completely bogus.

That said I entirely agree that a sensor doesn't make a full camera. But with mirrorless cameras, it makes it more so than with DSLRs. The A7III leaves very little room for Canon to maneuver.

Don Haines

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #169 on: March 01, 2018, 11:05:29 AM »

Taking a 1:1 crop from the middle of the lens is terrible for quality... the 'sweet spot' would need to be impossibly sweet to get total clarity.

Have you ever seen a lens where the MTF is better as you move away from the centre?
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fussy III

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #170 on: March 01, 2018, 11:07:29 AM »
... and produces excellent results in many variable conditions (landscape astrophotography, museum and churches interiors, birding, etc).

Indeed in many variable conditions the 5D IV will deliver, with the exemption of those variable conditions in which Sony delivers on top of that.

I agree a fullframe mirrorless by Canon will not come cheap. But will it justify the cost to most of us EF-lens-owners if it will not deliver where the competition already does? Among others fast readout with silent shooting, emulation of minimally ISO 400.000 in an electronic viewfinder's image to facilitate manual focus in very dim lighting situations (the reason for which I bought and still work with the A7s), more usable 4K-AF, usable profiles and a sense of appreciation of their customers and the art of photography in general (let's not even get into taste and design)?

I will not consider buying a FF-Canon for even less than $1.000 if it does not succesfully address those aforementioned issues, first and foremost silent shooting. If it is up to me they do not need to create FF-lenses specifically for mirrorless. It is my EF-lenses who are screaming for access to modern-mirrorless benefits. I still love optical viewfinders but might see myself forced on giving up on my hope of working with a lens-park that I can use with both optical and electronic viewfinder. And at some point I will stop asking whether Canon is just not willing or simply unable to deliver. I think that describes the situation of many ambitioned and faithful Canon-photographers. 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 11:22:44 AM by fussy III »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #171 on: March 01, 2018, 11:19:34 AM »
The Amazon ranking puts the X-pro 2 graphite edition at €2000 in ninth position, and doesn't even list the X-T2 out of 100 posiitons. So please allow me to cast serious doubts about its accuracy. In fact with that alone it looks completely bogus.

That said I entirely agree that a sensor doesn't make a full camera. But with mirrorless cameras, it makes it more so than with DSLRs. The A7III leaves very little room for Canon to maneuver.

In that case, would you mind sharing your data showing that the M5 is a 'flop'?  I know, you said they don't seem to stock them in shops in France.  As I stated, France ≠ Europe.

Canon has plenty of room to maneuver.  They are the ILC market leader, currently they have 50% of the entire global market. Therefore, their main source of FF MILC buyers are current Canon (APS-C) owners. 
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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #171 on: March 01, 2018, 11:19:34 AM »

rrcphoto

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #172 on: March 01, 2018, 11:33:05 AM »
the M5 did since it's been a flop here.

I'd love to see the sales statistics please.

tron

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #173 on: March 01, 2018, 11:57:53 AM »
... and produces excellent results in many variable conditions (landscape astrophotography, museum and churches interiors, birding, etc).

Indeed in many variable conditions the 5D IV will deliver, with the exemption of those variable conditions in which Sony delivers on top of that.

I agree a fullframe mirrorless by Canon will not come cheap. But will it justify the cost to most of us EF-lens-owners if it will not deliver where the competition already does? Among others fast readout with silent shooting, emulation of minimally ISO 400.000 in an electronic viewfinder's image to facilitate manual focus in very dim lighting situations (the reason for which I bought and still work with the A7s), more usable 4K-AF, usable profiles and a sense of appreciation of their customers and the art of photography in general (let's not even get into taste and design)?

I will not consider buying a FF-Canon for even less than $1.000 if it does not succesfully address those aforementioned issues, first and foremost silent shooting. If it is up to me they do not need to create FF-lenses specifically for mirrorless. It is my EF-lenses who are screaming for access to modern-mirrorless benefits. I still love optical viewfinders but might see myself forced on giving up on my hope of working with a lens-park that I can use with both optical and electronic viewfinder. And at some point I will stop asking whether Canon is just not willing or simply unable to deliver. I think that describes the situation of many ambitioned and faithful Canon-photographers.
I personally do not have any objection to a mirorless FF from Canon especially with an EF mount (I do have many Canon EF L lenses). But I do not care. I do not see a huge advantage against a DSLR. And the optical viewfinder saves the battery so much that you can take maybe even 3+ times of photos per charge. What I wait for is the 7DII and 5DsR replacements and nothing else. As a "mirrorless" I could use a D200 in liveview mode with EF-S18-55/4.5-5.6, EF-S24 2.8 and EF-S10-18/4.5-5.6. Of course YMMV.

Talys

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #174 on: March 01, 2018, 12:24:27 PM »
I personally do not have any objection to a mirorless FF from Canon especially with an EF mount (I do have many Canon EF L lenses). But I do not care. I do not see a huge advantage against a DSLR. And the optical viewfinder saves the battery so much that you can take maybe even 3+ times of photos per charge. What I wait for is the 7DII and 5DsR replacements and nothing else. As a "mirrorless" I could use a D200 in liveview mode with EF-S18-55/4.5-5.6, EF-S24 2.8 and EF-S10-18/4.5-5.6. Of course YMMV.

+10

I was out for a full day last weekend taking photos of birds, looking through the viewfinder a significant portion of that.  I took a little over 980 photos -- and I didn't even exhaust a single LPE6 battery.  With a DSLR, I never have to take more than 1 spare battery, and I never even bother checking the status of the battery in the camera before I leave.

The other issue is that I haven't yet used an EVF that works well in a studio that only has a bit of lighting (like modelling lights set on low), and where strobes are rapidly firing. 

fussy III

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #175 on: March 01, 2018, 12:37:30 PM »
I could use a D200 in liveview mode with EF-S18-55/4.5-5.6, EF-S24 2.8 and EF-S10-18/4.5-5.6.

Very similar situation with my Pentax 6x7 here. It even allows to lock-up the mirror mechanically. A good starting point for the modifications needed in order to convert it into a EF-hybrid-mirrorless I'd say.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 12:40:51 PM by fussy III »

ritholtz

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #176 on: March 01, 2018, 12:55:13 PM »
The Amazon ranking puts the X-pro 2 graphite edition at €2000 in ninth position, and doesn't even list the X-T2 out of 100 posiitons. So please allow me to cast serious doubts about its accuracy. In fact with that alone it looks completely bogus.

That said I entirely agree that a sensor doesn't make a full camera. But with mirrorless cameras, it makes it more so than with DSLRs. The A7III leaves very little room for Canon to maneuver.

In that case, would you mind sharing your data showing that the M5 is a 'flop'?  I know, you said they don't seem to stock them in shops in France.  As I stated, France ≠ Europe.

Canon has plenty of room to maneuver.  They are the ILC market leader, currently they have 50% of the entire global market. Therefore, their main source of FF MILC buyers are current Canon (APS-C) owners.
I doubt there is any data vailable to show M5 sales. There are couple of active posters here and dpr who fallows sales number thoroughly. M5 sales flop numbers are just a feel good story shared between them by same like minded group.


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NorbR

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #177 on: March 01, 2018, 08:20:55 PM »
The Amazon ranking puts the X-pro 2 graphite edition at €2000 in ninth position, and doesn't even list the X-T2 out of 100 posiitons. So please allow me to cast serious doubts about its accuracy. In fact with that alone it looks completely bogus.

Using Amazon rankings to compare overall sales is like using DxO scores to compare sensors. It's not completely useless, there's some genuine data underneath it all, but the algorithm used is completely cryptic and there's a whole bunch of factors we don't know about that mess up those rankings, which renders the whole thing fairly pointless imho.

That being said, it is still better than anecdotal evidence like "my buddy at the store still has 10 of them left on the shelves" or "2 of my friends have bought one". Sales data for specific camera models are hard to come by, and most broad statements like "camera X is flying off the shelves" or "camera Y is a flop" are based on no actual data whatsoever.
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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #177 on: March 01, 2018, 08:20:55 PM »

Rocky

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #178 on: March 02, 2018, 03:46:04 PM »
Who is #1 in sales? Who has more lenses line-up? Who cares.  Just buy the gear that you want or just buy the gear that fits your existing need the best. There is always something better next year.

Talys

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #179 on: March 02, 2018, 06:23:22 PM »

Taking a 1:1 crop from the middle of the lens is terrible for quality... the 'sweet spot' would need to be impossibly sweet to get total clarity.

Have you ever seen a lens where the MTF is better as you move away from the centre?

That would be the worst lens ever made :D

When you look at the $5,000 - $25,000 camcorders from Sony or Canon, they are not high megapixels that are scaled down.  Most of them have something like a 3840x2160 sensor.  I'm pretty sure that if the quality of video were way better if that were higher density and reduced... they'd do that... because obviously, Sony and Canon are capable of building sensors that are more than 8.3 megapixels.

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Re: Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #179 on: March 02, 2018, 06:23:22 PM »