June 18, 2018, 12:34:26 AM

Author Topic: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless  (Read 25586 times)

Talys

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2018, 03:12:11 AM »
A7III has no advantage in size and weight.  Do we go mirrorless just for the sake of it?  Canon/Nikon may be better off making traditional FF DSLR (which is their strength) and compete based on function and performance.

I won't go mirrorless just for the sake of it, but if Canon makes a mirrorless that I want and gives me some compelling reason to buy it, there's a good chance that I'll buy one in addition to whatever DSLR comes out next.

If Canon wants more money from me in bodies, the way to do it for an expensive flagship would be a 5D series with articulating touchscreen some of the D850 goodness.  Eye AF would really help, too, even if it's only in live view mode.

On the 7D front, all they have to do to sell me one is articulating screen and better ISO 200 - 2000 performance.

But I think I'm unlikely to buy both a 5D and 7D, so it will depend on which one drops first.

On the mirrorless front, assuming that the M5 MkII has a bunch of the M50 features, Canon has a decent chance of getting me to buy one, for no particularly good reason other than that I've been looking to buy an M5 for quite a while.  I don't think Canon could get me to spend big on a mirrorless FF flagship; I don't think it would fulfill my needs as a primary camera well, and I wouldn't want to spend that much money on a body, given that.

A better argument is that the Sony A6300 is an excellent camera.  Why doesn't it do better?

It may or may not do well, but it's not an entry-level camera. The A5100 is, so the question is, why doesn't it do better.

The reason I was picking A6300 is that this is much closer in price to M5/M6, which I think make up the bulk of Canon's MILC body sales.

But sure, it's a perfectly reasonable question to ask why A5100 doesn't do better.

One possible reason: some people may have had poor experiences with non-camera Sony products.  I know that I have, with super-expensive VAIO laptops in the last couple of years when they were made ($3000+ models).  They were advertised as cutting edge machines with features like carbon fiber bodies.  But they kind of sucked in more ways than I could count.  I've been a bit biased against Sony ever since.  I've still bought Sony stuff, just not their really expensive electronics.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 03:23:55 AM by Talys »

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2018, 03:12:11 AM »

Sharlin

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2018, 03:15:13 AM »
I smile every time when someone uses quotes and names because they are not capable to use they own thoughts/ideas. Worse ... they are thinking they are smart by doing that.
Try again, this time yourself.
You are Homo Sapiens not Homo Copicus/quoticus.

If your original thought is at the level you have demonstrated, perhaps you should stick to quotes as well.

Sharlin

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2018, 03:20:11 AM »
A better argument is that the Sony A6300 is an excellent camera.  Why doesn't it do better?
It may or may not do well, but it's not an entry-level camera. The A5100 is, so the question is, why doesn't it do better.

The reason I was picking A6300 is that this is much closer in price to M5/M6, which I think make up the bulk of Canon's MILC body sales.

Hmm, I don't see why. Like on the DSLR side, entry-level sales (read: M100 and M10 before it) most likely exceed the sales of enthusiast bodies by a large margin. (Think 10x. From now on, with the M50 released, the gap should widen even more.)

Talys

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2018, 03:24:54 AM »
A better argument is that the Sony A6300 is an excellent camera.  Why doesn't it do better?
It may or may not do well, but it's not an entry-level camera. The A5100 is, so the question is, why doesn't it do better.

The reason I was picking A6300 is that this is much closer in price to M5/M6, which I think make up the bulk of Canon's MILC body sales.

Hmm, I don't see why. Like on the DSLR side, entry-level sales (read: M100 and M10 before it) most likely exceed the sales of enthusiast bodies by a large margin. (Think 10x. From now on, with the M50 released, the gap should widen even more.)

You could be right.  I don't know.  I didn't think M100 sales were all that spectacular, but now that I think about it, I have no idea why I think that :)

canonic

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2018, 03:36:41 AM »
I smile every time when someone uses quotes and names because they are not capable to use they own thoughts/ideas. Worse ... they are thinking they are smart by doing that.
Try again, this time yourself.
You are Homo Sapiens not Homo Copicus/quoticus.

If your original thought is at the level you have demonstrated, perhaps you should stick to quotes as well.

Hehe, i haven't tried to be smart, only ironic. See the difference ?! But, how i like how many of you defend Canon. Sometimes i have the impression you have double personality and the second one is Canon  8)
This may explain why many of you defend Canon with such vehemence  ;D and why you are so reticent to any word which may "hurt" Canon.

Isaacheus

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2018, 04:07:09 AM »

A7III has no advantage in size and weight.  Do we go mirrorless just for the sake of it?  Canon/Nikon may be better off making traditional FF DSLR (which is their strength) and compete based on function and performance.

Not for just the sake of it - I agree that the size/weight benefit is usually pretty well overstated (although it is nice to be able to chuck the 40mm pancake on with the mc-11 as a walk around, fits more easily into small bags than the 6d with the same lens, but I digress). Once you put a 1.4 prime, the difference is basically nil.

The other benefits from a mirrorless design would be good though, evf for video, focus peaking for manual focusing landscapes, zebras for highlights etc. I assume canon will continue with dslrs and that makes sense; I would like to see some feature frontiers being pushed though, decent cameras for the most part but canon has a great way of never giving all the options in one body. At the moment, they don't seem to be willing to attempt the second part of your statement, the prime example being the 6dmk2.

jolyonralph

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2018, 04:09:57 AM »
A7III has no advantage in size and weight.  Do we go mirrorless just for the sake of it?  Canon/Nikon may be better off making traditional FF DSLR (which is their strength) and compete based on function and performance.

Ah, I fear you're stuck in the old "FF Camera = big body + 24-70 2.8 zoom" mindset.

There is no advantage in size and weight if that's all you do day in day out. Perhaps the average wedding photographer wouldn't find a weight benefit in the A7III.

But attach a compact prime to the A7III, something like the 35mm f/2.8 Sony-Zeiss, or their wonderful 55mm f/1.8 portrait lens (which is an order of magnitude better than the Canon 1.4 50)  and go have FUN shooting without that huge brick hanging from your neck all day.

The advantage of mirrorless in weight is this flexibility. It's no worse when you have to stick your 24-70 on for your day (or weekend) job, but when you want to have fun, stick on a light lens and it's as if it's a totally different camera.

Of course, that's not the only benefit of mirrorless.

For me they are:

1. Ability to review photos through the viewfinder.

2. Ability to manual focus with focus highlighting through the viewfinder.

3. Ditto, with zoom

4. B&W photography with the viewfinder in B&W.   And on my M3 which is converted to infra-red I get real infra-red images in the viewfinder.

5. Much better idea of how your levels look on bright days

6. Automatic face focus through the viewfinder (and, on newer models, automatic eye focus).  I can't stress too much how amazingly useful this is. If you're a wedding photographer it may be worth the investment in mirrorless for this feature alone.

The weight and compactness are great benefits, but far from the ONLY benefit.

Now, will canon do an EF mount mirrorless?  I doubt it because:

a) If they do, they'll sell more of these bodies to EF lens owners, who won't need to buy new lenses.

b) IF they do a new mount, they'll sell fewer bodies, but those people who buy them will buy more lenses.


Now, I'm pretty sure that Canon make a higher markup on their lenses than they do on the bodies.  Which way will Canon go? It's not difficult to figure out...






Jolyon Ralph

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2018, 04:09:57 AM »

MayaTlab

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2018, 04:32:31 AM »
How soon will it be before we see a Full Frame mirrorless from canon?

Possibly pretty soon for a VERY entry level camera.

But a few years away from anything close to the A7III. So far Canon hasn't demonstrated that they have the capability to produce sensors with this degree of performance (particularly readout speed, which is critical to reach the A7III's operational qualities) at a sufficiently low price point. The 6DII makes it abundantly clear that they're struggling. They have all the patents needed, but if they can't produce such sensors economically, it won't happen.

I would love nothing more than to be wrong.

Even if they could, you'll get typical Canon segmentation, such as the lack of joystick, only 1 SD card, etc... after all we're talking about a brand that omitted radio from its latest €500 flash. The latter won't change for years, it's a - irrational - business culture issue, just like the Sony A7R III's lack of weather sealing near the bottom plate.

tomri

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2018, 05:09:59 AM »
Really curious whether Canon will try to get away with their "disposable" type of consumer lenses in the mirrorless domain (i.e. f6.3/plastic mount standard zoom) or whether we will see something more decent later this year.

LDS

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2018, 05:10:51 AM »
Canon hopes that the new product will attract demand from families, including mothers who enjoy taking pictures of their children.

Now we know what the target is ...
Now, Canon, make at least variants with some shades of pink. Those mothers will appreciate it.

Yeah, poor Mary Ellen Mark, Diane Arbus, Joyce Tenneson, Margaret Bourke White and Susan Meiselas, all they ever wanted was a pink camera.

You should have taken Lincoln's advice: Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.

Isn't rumored that a special edition pink M100 will be released in Japan? At who do you believed it is aimed at? Why some iPhone models are available in pink? Fuji Instax is offered in two shades of pink, plus an "Hello Kitty" model.

Some buyers - especially female - like that, and there's nothing wrong in that. Someone finds black cameras "boring" - and it looks Canon white models has been successful enough they keep on making them.

A "simplified camera for women" would be sexist and discriminatory. Outer colors, offer what people like and buy.

IglooEater

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2018, 05:31:57 AM »
Now where are the mirrorless haters??  ::) ::) ::)

Here’s one.  I dare say the others are still around but simply weren’t interested enough by the post to read this thread.  Until someone resolves the major issues intrinsic to mirrorless, I won’t be partial to them.  I expect that someone will be Canon.

Ian_of_glos

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2018, 06:01:18 AM »
Now where are the mirrorless haters??  ::) ::) ::)

Here’s one.  I dare say the others are still around but simply weren’t interested enough by the post to read this thread.  Until someone resolves the major issues intrinsic to mirrorless, I won’t be partial to them.  I expect that someone will be Canon.
Surely the important thing is to be allowed to make our own choice without being bullied or intimidated by someone who happens to prefer a different product.
Last time I upgraded my camera body I tried many of the leading mirrorless cameras but eventually I decided to buy another DSLR. It was a difficult decision, but on balance the DSLR offered more of the features I wanted and so it was the right decision for me. However this does not mean it would be the right decision for everyone and it does not mean I am a "mirrorless hater". In fact I am delighted that Canon are announcing a number of new mirrorless cameras alongside their range of DSLRs. That way we can all choose the camera that suits us best.

eosuser1234

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2018, 07:15:01 AM »
Well if they are concerned about cannibalizing sales of the DSLR market, it would make sense that their FF offering has EF-M mount, and those who want to use EF lenses use the current adaptor.  Keep the small format body, and offer higher end EF-M lenses who can cover a FF sensor size. 
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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2018, 07:15:01 AM »

john kriegsmann

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2018, 07:23:04 AM »
Canon should just buy Fuji. They are light years ahead of canon in mirrorless lens and body development. The M series bodies are getting better but the problem is there are few if any quality native lenses for the M series. The kit lenses are very slow at F6. There is one pancake fast prime lens and a decent wide angle zoom. Sorry packaging free EOS to M adapters doesn't cut it because SLR lenses for the most part are way too big for the mini M bodies. If Canon wants to me competitive in the cropped sensor mirrorless market they need to develop a native lens lineup. If they want to use their EOS lens they need to come up with a medium to large full frame mirrorless body, anything less than that they will never compete with Sony on the full frame end and Fuji on the cropped sensor market.

IglooEater

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2018, 08:06:03 AM »
Now where are the mirrorless haters??  ::) ::) ::)

Here’s one.  I dare say the others are still around but simply weren’t interested enough by the post to read this thread.  Until someone resolves the major issues intrinsic to mirrorless, I won’t be partial to them.  I expect that someone will be Canon.
Surely the important thing is to be allowed to make our own choice without being bullied or intimidated by someone who happens to prefer a different product.
Last time I upgraded my camera body I tried many of the leading mirrorless cameras but eventually I decided to buy another DSLR. It was a difficult decision, but on balance the DSLR offered more of the features I wanted and so it was the right decision for me. However this does not mean it would be the right decision for everyone and it does not mean I am a "mirrorless hater". In fact I am delighted that Canon are announcing a number of new mirrorless cameras alongside their range of DSLRs. That way we can all choose the camera that suits us best.

+1. I don’t think that sanj meant a bully by the term, or I wouldn’t have identified with it.  If that was meant, I retract that, my sentiments are much closer to what you described.

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2018, 08:06:03 AM »