June 24, 2018, 03:53:46 AM

Author Topic: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless  (Read 25881 times)

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2018, 08:14:26 AM »
If Canon wants to me competitive in the cropped sensor mirrorless market they need to develop a native lens lineup. If they want to use their EOS lens they need to come up with a medium to large full frame mirrorless body, anything less than that they will never compete with Sony on the full frame end and Fuji on the cropped sensor market.

Canon is #2 globally in MILC market share.  But you're saying they aren't competitive.  As for Canon competing with Fuji, that's like the Philadelphia Eagles worrying about competition from the Podunk High School football team.

Or did you mean compete for your personal positive opinion of their cameras? In that case, please be aware that no one cares.
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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2018, 08:14:26 AM »

Ian_of_glos

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2018, 08:15:24 AM »
Now where are the mirrorless haters??  ::) ::) ::)

Here’s one.  I dare say the others are still around but simply weren’t interested enough by the post to read this thread.  Until someone resolves the major issues intrinsic to mirrorless, I won’t be partial to them.  I expect that someone will be Canon.
Surely the important thing is to be allowed to make our own choice without being bullied or intimidated by someone who happens to prefer a different product.
Last time I upgraded my camera body I tried many of the leading mirrorless cameras but eventually I decided to buy another DSLR. It was a difficult decision, but on balance the DSLR offered more of the features I wanted and so it was the right decision for me. However this does not mean it would be the right decision for everyone and it does not mean I am a "mirrorless hater". In fact I am delighted that Canon are announcing a number of new mirrorless cameras alongside their range of DSLRs. That way we can all choose the camera that suits us best.

+1. I don’t think that sanj meant a bully by the term, or I wouldn’t have identified with it.  If that was meant, I retract that, my sentiments are much closer to what you described.
I am sure you are right, but when I have been out and about using my DSLR occasionally people have come up to my and asked why I am still using such a dinosaur of a camera, almost as if I don't know that mirrorless cameras exist. This happens in many different walks of life, not just photography. There is always someone who feels they have the right to ridicule anyone why has not yet adopted the latest technology.

MayaTlab

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2018, 08:33:47 AM »
Canon is #2 globally in MILC market share.  But you're saying they aren't competitive.  As for Canon competing with Fuji, that's like the Philadelphia Eagles worrying about competition from the Podunk High School football team.

They're probably doing very well globally, but I can tell you that in very concrete terms it's far easier to purchase Fuji's mirrorless lineup in France than Canon's.
In fact many stores, either online or brick and mortar stores, don't even stock Canon's M lineup, and if they are it's just because they're contractually obligated to purchase a minimum number of cameras. After the initial stock is sold they just put them on "special order".
Fujis on the other hand are everywhere in stock as well as most lenses.

3dit0r

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2018, 08:34:03 AM »
To me, at the moment, the issue is not Canon continuing to make great DSLRs (although I'll come back to that one), it's that there is no serious mirrorless option from Canon for those who do wish to move to mirrorless for whatever reason. At the moment, it's an all or nothing choice; if you want a serious mirrorless solution, by definition, you are forced away from Canon into a competitor's arms. Why not simply have the choice of the two within Canon's ecosystem? Very clearly there are users who want either or both, so I believe Canon's fear of 'cannibalising' DSRL sales is unfounded. However, if that belief does have foundation, it is even more pressing for Canon to produce a very serious mirrorless offering, as that would mean that, increasingly, they will simply lose those increasing mirrorless sales to their competitors.

That said, what really, genuinely, suprises me more is that even within DSLR systems Canon severely lacks innovation in some areas. This is where they are market leaders, yet there are competitors who even now are building more modern, innovative systems. E.g. the Pentax K-1 (or MKII) now that Pentax's lens lineup for modern full frame sensors is fleshing out. For stills, at least, if I were buying into a new system, I would be very seriously looking at a K-1. IBIS (including hand-held pixel-shift hi res mode on the mkii, and auto-levelling, and AA-filter mimicking), great image quality, fully articulating LCD, astro-tracing, and a logic board upgrade for owners of the mki to upgrade to mkii!. All this at around $600 less than a 5D Mark IV.

So, Canon have the size and robustness of a DSLR body to play with, to which any of these new, innovative features could physically be added, they have more patents than any other company (we're constantly reminded), yet a lowly competitor just put a ton more innovation in their DSLR. That to me is an even bigger issue than the lack of a pro mirrorless at this point; if Canon are going to specialise in DSLR, they could at least bring their high-end offerings into the 21st Century and justify that decision to stay away from mirrorless.

LDS

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2018, 09:02:20 AM »
so I believe Canon's fear of 'cannibalising' DSRL sales is unfounded. However, if that belief does have foundation, it is even more pressing for Canon to produce a very serious mirrorless offering, as that would mean that, increasingly, they will simply lose those increasing mirrorless sales to their competitors.

It looks Canon wasn't keen to have to care about two production lines and everything it requires, from planning production to fit demand (and forecast it well enough) and so on. It's clear that most of the time a mirrorless sold is one DSLR less, and viceversa, many customers usually own a single body, and will go one way or the other.

It will require a deep re-planning, and also moving into "uncharted territory" because I'm not sure they know what their customers will prefer and in which percentage, and planning wrongly may be costly. And there's the issue of EF lenses compatibility, a new mount for high-end FF mirroless may be a risky proposition, since EF mount is not obsolete (like FD was, or Nikon could be), but of course wasn't designed to keep camera size small. Sony had nothing to be compatible with.

I think Canon has understood it can't wait much more, and will act, but they may have reasonable fears of in-brand competition.

alienman

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2018, 10:19:52 AM »
If Canon wants to me competitive in the cropped sensor mirrorless market they need to develop a native lens lineup. If they want to use their EOS lens they need to come up with a medium to large full frame mirrorless body, anything less than that they will never compete with Sony on the full frame end and Fuji on the cropped sensor market.

Canon is #2 globally in MILC market share.  But you're saying they aren't competitive.  As for Canon competing with Fuji, that's like the Philadelphia Eagles worrying about competition from the Podunk High School football team.

Or did you mean compete for your personal positive opinion of their cameras? In that case, please be aware that no one cares.

Canon may be doing well in sales but I’m sure we can all agree that they are not making the best mirroless cameras. As someone said earlier in the article most of the sales are coming from cheap affordable options. They have a lot of work to do to catch up with other brands.

Canoneer

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2018, 10:33:05 AM »
The only improvement the M50 offers over the last batch of mirrorless cameras is C RAW and auto camera/smartphone pairing. They have a lot of work to do yet.

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2018, 10:33:05 AM »

fussy III

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2018, 10:51:09 AM »
I am not angry that Canon is late in mirrorless or in adopting some of the associated technologies.

But lets remind the company that now may be the critical time to adopt an approach of listening and striving.

As customer I'd ask them to please quit giving me the impression of being regarded as a dependent idiot who is prepared to swallow yet another of their bullshit-camera-releases (just my subjective feeling - certainly I do not know about you idiots).

Does Canon want to keep floating in the mirrorless business or do they wish to become a swimmer? That would take a stroke I guess. But let's wish the CEO well ...

Talys

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2018, 11:00:28 AM »
The only improvement the M50 offers over the last batch of mirrorless cameras is C RAW and auto camera/smartphone pairing. They have a lot of work to do yet.

Also, Eye AF and 4k.  Plus some kind of gyroscopic image stabilization that works with stills, even if it isn't a lot.  And a fully articulating screen.  Plus, it's cheaper.

These are all improvements :)


Canon may be doing well in sales but I’m sure we can all agree that they are not making the best mirroless cameras. As someone said earlier in the article most of the sales are coming from cheap affordable options. They have a lot of work to do to catch up with other brands.

Canon doesn't make the best full frame mirrorless camera because.... Canon doesn't make a full frame mirrorless camera at all :D

I would not call the M5/M6 cheap

Depending on your criteria, Canon might or might not be the best mirrorless option.  The word "best" is a bit loaded, because, best at what?.  Someone might choose a Sony because they think it's best-looking.  Someone might pick Olympus because it has the best weight for an "equivalent focal length".  Someone might pick Canon because it feels the best in their hands.

But it is, provably, the second most popular mirrorless option -- which means that a lot of people who want mirrorless decided that it's the best choice for them.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 11:18:35 AM by Talys »

rrcphoto

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2018, 11:06:27 AM »
The only improvement the M50 offers over the last batch of mirrorless cameras is C RAW and auto camera/smartphone pairing. They have a lot of work to do yet.

what the blazes are you talking about?

1) C-RAW
2) expanded DPAF area and zones
3) 1 more EV in AF range
4) silent shutter (could be better, but it's a start)
5) h.264 codec for 4K - the first time in ANY canon ILC
6) DLO in camera
7) eye AF

and this is in an ENTRY level camera.

this is a quantum leap for canon in the entry level camera department.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 11:09:06 AM by rrcphoto »

criscokkat

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2018, 11:10:02 AM »
If they really wanted to shake things up while keeping the massive userbase that has a very large collection of EF lenses, they have an option that could really shake things up:

  Go Big 

Most of the EF lenses have a footprint that can work on Fuji's medium format camera that is 44mm by 33mm with slight vignetting in the corners. Canon could most likely slightly upsize the sensor size to 40x26.5 with no vignetting on the 90% of their lenses (A crop mode when certain lenses are attached would take care of that). This could allow some play when recording video for stabilization (which is the other reason aside from bandwidth for why crop modes are used). This would give them a reason to keep the larger size, and would not be something Sony could match. Plus they could point out that it captures X% more light than Sony's offerings. I'm not even sure how much Nikon would be able to compete, as they use Sony's sensors and I'm not sure if there is enough of a market for Sony to create different sizes just for Nikon.

They could also play the same trick with the EF-M line - they could resurrect the APS-H size as a replacement for the APS-C. The EF-M will *almost* fit a full frame sensor, it could handle the APS-H size. and be able to use extra room as a crop mode that crops it down to more the current native aps-c size when using image stabilization on a video.

That would certainly be a "mike drop" moment. And because they have chosen to "go last" they have that opportunity to turn the tables with an innovation other than "I made it smaller to be like the competition". Because if everyone has to re-buy their lenses for a new full frame mirrorless, they run the risk of giving people that are currently locked in an option to go elsewhere.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 11:20:26 AM by criscokkat »

ahsanford

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2018, 11:17:24 AM »
A7III has no advantage in size and weight.  Do we go mirrorless just for the sake of it?  Canon/Nikon may be better off making traditional FF DSLR (which is their strength) and compete based on function and performance.

In FF, it's far less about how small you can make things than what mirrorless can potentially do better than SLRs:

  • No mirror = no mirror slap, one less thing that can fail, make noise, limit fps, etc.

  • EVF = much more useful info through the VF, massive upgrade for manual lens users, amplify light in dark rooms, etc.

Of course, mirrorless has downsides as well.  It's not categorically better than SLRs today or Canon would be selling them across the board.  At some things mirrorless is better.  In many, many others, SLRs remain the best choice. 

So Canon has been (shrewdly) hedging on offering two parallel FF portfolios of products until technology building blocks are in place to make mirrorless work well with minimized limitations/downsides.

- A

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2018, 11:18:20 AM »
If Canon wants to me competitive in the cropped sensor mirrorless market they need to develop a native lens lineup. If they want to use their EOS lens they need to come up with a medium to large full frame mirrorless body, anything less than that they will never compete with Sony on the full frame end and Fuji on the cropped sensor market.

Canon is #2 globally in MILC market share.  But you're saying they aren't competitive.  As for Canon competing with Fuji, that's like the Philadelphia Eagles worrying about competition from the Podunk High School football team.

Or did you mean compete for your personal positive opinion of their cameras? In that case, please be aware that no one cares.

Canon may be doing well in sales but I’m sure we can all agree that they are not making the best mirroless cameras. As someone said earlier in the article most of the sales are coming from cheap affordable options. They have a lot of work to do to catch up with other brands.

I'm sure glad we have you here to define "best" for all of us.  We'd be so lost without you.   ::)
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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2018, 11:18:20 AM »

rrcphoto

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2018, 11:22:53 AM »
If Canon wants to me competitive in the cropped sensor mirrorless market they need to develop a native lens lineup. If they want to use their EOS lens they need to come up with a medium to large full frame mirrorless body, anything less than that they will never compete with Sony on the full frame end and Fuji on the cropped sensor market.

Canon is #2 globally in MILC market share.  But you're saying they aren't competitive.  As for Canon competing with Fuji, that's like the Philadelphia Eagles worrying about competition from the Podunk High School football team.

Or did you mean compete for your personal positive opinion of their cameras? In that case, please be aware that no one cares.

Canon may be doing well in sales but I’m sure we can all agree that they are not making the best mirroless cameras. As someone said earlier in the article most of the sales are coming from cheap affordable options. They have a lot of work to do to catch up with other brands.

they have arguably the best color science, UI and some of the best ergonomics in mirrorless right now.

then again, taking actual pictures with cameras is kind of unheard of.



Wolfloid

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2018, 11:30:07 AM »
I wonder whether Canon really has the technology to compete with the high end mirrorless cameras. I have been surprised by the absences from their recent releases that make me also suspect a lack of management wherewithal. I know there are people here who are bent on defending the decisions that Canon is making, seeing intelligent strategic and economic thinking, but I wonder if that is at all helpful. The 6DII is really a case in point - they released a camera that is seriously crippled, even though Nikon already had a far superior, similarly priced competitor in the D750 that had already been around for a while. Now Sony has released the A7III, which seems completely superior in every single respect to the 6DII other than for those who prefer an optical viewfinder. Who will buy the 6DII now that the A7III has arrived? Not even sports or wildlife photographers. It is not even clear to me that the 5DIV, an excellent camera, is really any better than the new Sony, again, apart from its optical viewfinder.

I can see why wildlife and sports photographers will stick with DSLRs, perhaps for a long while, but everybody else? Canon sales are seriously declining, the low end of point and shoots has gone and DSLR sales are also falling. Where is Canon going to get new sales from? Their mirrorless cameras are only number two in Japan, and certainly not globally. Surely, they must see this, yet still they dither with some very sub-standard mid to low-end mirrorless products. Maybe, they have waited too long and now Sony has taken a long lead in bringing size down, and delivering high spec such as IBIS, tilting screens, and better sensor design, which Canon still does not seem to be able to produce. Maybe it is a technology and management problem combined. A pity, because their ergonomics are still the best.

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2018, 11:30:07 AM »