June 19, 2018, 12:46:40 PM

Author Topic: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless  (Read 25680 times)

rrcphoto

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2018, 11:33:12 AM »
so I believe Canon's fear of 'cannibalising' DSRL sales is unfounded. However, if that belief does have foundation, it is even more pressing for Canon to produce a very serious mirrorless offering, as that would mean that, increasingly, they will simply lose those increasing mirrorless sales to their competitors.

It looks Canon wasn't keen to have to care about two production lines and everything it requires, from planning production to fit demand (and forecast it well enough) and so on. It's clear that most of the time a mirrorless sold is one DSLR less, and viceversa, many customers usually own a single body, and will go one way or the other.

Canon has automated lines that I'm sure can handle it.. the question is .. what was the point before now?

They got "serious" with the M5 I believe, but the M50 IMO a sign that they are spending a greater degree of R&D in mirrorless and going to rapidly catch up in the feature department.

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2018, 11:33:12 AM »

rrcphoto

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2018, 11:35:24 AM »
I wonder whether Canon really has the technology to compete with the high end mirrorless cameras.

DIGIC 8 gets them closer.

Talys

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2018, 11:37:06 AM »
I wonder whether Canon really has the technology to compete with the high end mirrorless cameras.

Since Canon makes lots of mirorless tech that is often the choice for broadcast - like, you know, the Olympics - I would venture to guess on the technology front, the answer is "yes".

Canon sales are seriously declining

They are?  Their financial reports seem to say otherwise.

Where is Canon going to get new sales from? Their mirrorless cameras are only number two in Japan, and certainly not globally.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but do you have any facts to support this claim?

JohanCruyff

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2018, 11:40:35 AM »
The only improvement the M50 offers over the last batch of mirrorless cameras is C RAW and auto camera/smartphone pairing. They have a lot of work to do yet.

what the blazes are you talking about?

1) C-RAW
2) expanded DPAF area and zones
3) 1 more EV in AF range
4) silent shutter (could be better, but it's a start)
5) h.264 codec for 4K - the first time in ANY canon ILC
6) DLO in camera
7) eye AF

and this is in an ENTRY level camera.

this is a quantum leap for canon in the entry level camera department.
Increased autofocus coverage (with 3 EF-M lenses): from 80% x 80% to 100% x 88%: the smaller M50's AF zones range from 99 to 143 vs 49 M5's zones
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2018, 11:49:26 AM »
Their mirrorless cameras are only number two in Japan, and certainly not globally.

In fact, Canon is #2 globally in MILC. In Japan, they are behind Olympus, whereas globally, Sony is the MILC market leader. But Canon still sells more FF ILC's than Sony.
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ahsanford

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2018, 11:51:23 AM »
I wonder whether Canon really has the technology to compete with the high end mirrorless cameras.

That depends on what we're harping on:

  • Sensors:  yes in practical terms, less so in perception (thanks DXO)
  • EVFs:  not my wheelhouse, I'll defer to others on this -- presume yes?
  • Touchscreen:  yes
  • AF:  yes
  • Connectivity/wireless:  presume yes, but I haven't used Canon wireless options enough to know how well it works
  • Ergonomics, controls:  yes, yes, all day
  • Video: not my wheelhouse, but I always hear how Canon can't deliver the format / lack of crop / etc. that others can, but I'll leave others to comment here.
  • Stills throughput: this is a big fat no right now.  We can debate if folks truly need (say) 42 MP x 10 fps 14-bit RAW throughput, but Sony and Nikon are moving a ton more data than Canon does right now.
  • IBIS:  No, but that seems to be more of a technology choice (Canon favoring lens IS) than an inability of Canon to deliver it.
  • Native mount lenses:  this is a knuckleball of a qualifier as any new system will struggle here at first (unless FF mirrorless is full EF  ::)), so I won't ding them here for it.
  • Speedlites:  yes

So, IMHO, the only thing holding back Canon from offering something commercially competitive in FF mirrorless is the will to build something and put their name on it.  It will sell.

But if you are referring to something spec-sheet competitive to other offerings at the same price point, it's quite clear that Canon is under no imperative to do that -- so I wouldn't hold your breath.

- A

MayaTlab

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2018, 11:52:15 AM »
I wonder whether Canon really has the technology to compete with the high end mirrorless cameras.

They probably have the engineering know-how.

However I feel that they have been too reluctant to invest in production processes that could make it a reality at a given price point (particularly on the sensor side).
Canon has produced lots of patents lately about BSI, stacked, or (insert other marketing buzzword here) sensors, and has done a lot of sensor PR stunts, but so far they haven't shown anything for it in stills cameras bar DPAF (which admittedly is quite nice).

I think that the 6DII's sensor, for example, isn't Canon being malicious. I think that it's just the best they can do for $2000 in 2018.

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2018, 11:52:15 AM »

fussy III

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2018, 11:53:45 AM »
this is a quantum leap for canon in the entry level camera department.

A quantum leap it is when we consider the leaps that Canon has been making in the past years. But no quantum leap it is by anyone else's standards. And are those leaps by Canon really high enough to ever lead anywhere or does the company merely pretend it wishes to get somewhere with this? I have my doubts.

Wolfloid

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2018, 12:19:45 PM »
"In fact, Canon is #2 globally in MILC".

Could you reference that? I read that they are behind Sony, Olympus and Fuji.

Wolfloid

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #69 on: February 28, 2018, 12:22:25 PM »
Quote
They are?  Their financial reports seem to say otherwise.

What, with their small camera sales wiped out and DSLR sales dropping? Perhaps their photocopier sales are up.

jeffa4444

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #70 on: February 28, 2018, 12:28:28 PM »
Their mirrorless cameras are only number two in Japan, and certainly not globally.

In fact, Canon is #2 globally in MILC. In Japan, they are behind Olympus, whereas globally, Sony is the MILC market leader. But Canon still sells more FF ILC's than Sony.

Olympus make some pretty good MILC cameras and lenses particularly considering micro 4/3rds is smaller than APS-C. The pro lenses in the line-up are pretty good too Ive been invested in their 4/3rds system since they started it mainly because of size & weight so changing to EOS-M was not attractive.

All that said its chalk & cheese viewing images between an Olympus OM-D E-M1 MKII and a Canon EOS 5DS. The 5DS with good L glass is in a league of its own for a DSLR or MILC with superior color imagery, fine detail and viewable resolution. The Olympus is a great friend if you want flexibility and want to travel light at the same time but ergonomically just doesn't cut it like the Canon. As good as EVF viewfinders have got they do not surpass optical viewfinders and Canon touch screen tech is far superior to Olympus.
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EduPortas

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #71 on: February 28, 2018, 12:32:49 PM »
Just to add my 2c.

Since Canon already had an outstanding advantage in the camera market before
mirrorless even became a thing, they played the waiting game for the last five years.

They waited and analyzed Oly's, Panny, Fuji and Sony's products to see what worked and what sells in mirrorless.

Effectively, the spent zero dollars doing that research, since all costs were shouldered by their competitors.

In retrospect, those companies had no other choice. They needed to surprise the consumer one way
or the other before the sleeping giant saw them a realistic potential threat.

Now it's time for Canon to unleash the consumer mirrorless cameras that will sell a ton. Cheapish cameras
will bells and whistles that further their position as the imaging giant they are. Once the first Rebel
with 4K is released, it's basically game over for everyone else.

They already have their 4K bookends in place: the really high-end gear (1DX Mark II, 5D M4)
and the lower echelon (M50). Time to fill the holes with the obligatory Rebel, a Swiss-army camera (Canon 80D et al)
and the sporting and wildlife favorite 7D.

All of these DSLRs will be released with 4K within the next Canon fiscal year (starts every January).
Some may even branch out into newer mirrorless lines (most probably the Rebel models).

Wild speculation, for sure. Fun times for anyone who already owns a bunch of Canon glass.

IglooEater

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2018, 12:46:46 PM »
Their mirrorless cameras are only number two in Japan, and certainly not globally.

In fact, Canon is #2 globally in MILC. In Japan, they are behind Olympus, whereas globally, Sony is the MILC market leader. But Canon still sells more FF ILC's than Sony.

I believe you, but I’d be curious to see the data.  Would you mind linking it?

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2018, 12:46:46 PM »

dak723

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #73 on: February 28, 2018, 12:56:35 PM »
If Canon wants to me competitive in the cropped sensor mirrorless market they need to develop a native lens lineup. If they want to use their EOS lens they need to come up with a medium to large full frame mirrorless body, anything less than that they will never compete with Sony on the full frame end and Fuji on the cropped sensor market.

Canon is #2 globally in MILC market share.  But you're saying they aren't competitive.  As for Canon competing with Fuji, that's like the Philadelphia Eagles worrying about competition from the Podunk High School football team.

Or did you mean compete for your personal positive opinion of their cameras? In that case, please be aware that no one cares.

Canon may be doing well in sales but I’m sure we can all agree that they are not making the best mirroless cameras. As someone said earlier in the article most of the sales are coming from cheap affordable options. They have a lot of work to do to catch up with other brands.

Well, we're not all going to agree with that at all.  Having purchased Sony FF, Olympus m4/3 and Canon's M5 mirrorless, the best of the bunch, in my opinion, is the Canon M5.  Olympus E-M1 is a close second.  Given a choice between them (and I did have the choice) the only cameras that I did not keep were the Sony A7 and A7 II.  So despite all the Sony hype, unless you can afford their over $1,000 lenses, I would avoid them like the plague, as their 28-70 and 24-70 kit lenses (not that cheap, by the way) are awful due to the too short flange distance in the Sony FF.  If color matters to you, then Canon and Olympus seem far better choices (obviously a subjective opinion).  Shooting in daylight and not needing prints over 8 X 12, my M5 replaced my 6D.  So, no I don't agree that Canon doesn't make the best mirrorless camera, nor do they have a lot of catching up to do.  Until Sony can produce decent color, it is they that have a lot of catching up to do, in my opinion.

scyrene

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #74 on: February 28, 2018, 12:59:35 PM »
  • No mirror = no mirror slap, one less thing that can fail, make noise, limit fps, etc.
Not wishing to pick a fight with you, but this is something that bugs me. Mirrorless cameras take away, but also insert components compared to DSLRs - and do we have any data that an EVF is less likely to fail (or has a longer average working lifespan) than a mirror assembly? The assumption I see repeatedly is that mechanical stuff fails more than electronic, but that doesn't chime with my anedotal experiences.
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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #74 on: February 28, 2018, 12:59:35 PM »