April 25, 2018, 06:56:19 PM

Author Topic: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless  (Read 19046 times)

ahsanford

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #150 on: March 02, 2018, 01:21:01 PM »
What DSLR does the M50 cannibalize sales of?

Which APSC video-centric DSLRs are there? 

Which 4k FF DSLRs would someone not buy, and purchase the M50 instead?

I hear you, but I think you are reading the 'Canon is prepared to cannibalize SLRs' too specifically around the M50 and 4k.  (In the near term, the 80D --> 90D would surely answer your 2nd and 3rd questions above.)

I think Canon was talking bigger than this present moment.  I could be wrong, but I believe the press release / interview (whatever it was) was more about Canon scaling up and expanding its mirrorless ambitions beyond EOS M -- flagged by some folks here as more of a PowerShot-based platform -- into the meat and potatoes elements of their SLR portfolio. 

Mirrorless products with similar footprint/controls/interface to SLRs are coming, and they'll be sold side by side against their SLR counterparts.  That's the cannibalization (I think) they were referring to. 

A mirrorless Rebel is not EOS M (and forget EF-S vs. EF-M for a minute, I am talking about the name and the company's backing of that name).  Once a mirrorless product gets the Rebel moniker and is pushed with the might of the fully operational battlestation that is Canon, it will mark the beginning of the end of mirrors for Canon's volume/dollars workhorse.

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #150 on: March 02, 2018, 01:21:01 PM »

Talys

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #151 on: March 02, 2018, 01:49:55 PM »
What DSLR does the M50 cannibalize sales of?

Which APSC video-centric DSLRs are there? 

Which 4k FF DSLRs would someone not buy, and purchase the M50 instead?

I hear you, but I think you are reading the 'Canon is prepared to cannibalize SLRs' too specifically around the M50 and 4k.  (In the near term, the 80D --> 90D would surely answer your 2nd and 3rd questions above.)

I think Canon was talking bigger than this present moment.  I could be wrong, but I believe the press release / interview (whatever it was) was more about Canon scaling up and expanding its mirrorless ambitions beyond EOS M -- flagged by some folks here as more of a PowerShot-based platform -- into the meat and potatoes elements of their SLR portfolio. 

Mirrorless products with similar footprint/controls/interface to SLRs are coming, and they'll be sold side by side against their SLR counterparts.  That's the cannibalization (I think) they were referring to. 

A mirrorless Rebel is not EOS M (and forget EF-S vs. EF-M for a minute, I am talking about the name and the company's backing of that name).  Once a mirrorless product gets the Rebel moniker and is pushed with the might of the fully operational battlestation that is Canon, it will mark the beginning of the end of mirrors for Canon's volume/dollars workhorse.

- A

Oh, I didn't really read it that way, but sure, I'll buy into some of that (minus the part that it wasn't actually Canon using the phrase cannibalize).  I'll definitely buy into the last conclusion, whether or not it's called a Rebel,  that in the end, mirrorless will dominate volume/dollars workhorse, simply because they are long-term cheaper to make, have a gentler learning curve, and allow for a smaller body.

Cannibalization usually refers to a cheaper unit stealing sales from a more expensive one, because it can do all the important stuff for less money. In Canon's case, I suspect it will be the opposite. Alhough there will certainly be MILCs that are cheap, for a long time, th price point will be higher for Canon MILCs than equivalent in class Canon DSLRs.

So, though they'd unlikely use either term publically, I think the internal term is upselling :)

I don't think Canon 'fears cannibalzation' as it does 'lower profits'. 
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 01:55:15 PM by Talys »

BillB

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #152 on: March 02, 2018, 01:56:43 PM »
What DSLR does the M50 cannibalize sales of?

Which APSC video-centric DSLRs are there? 

Which 4k FF DSLRs would someone not buy, and purchase the M50 instead?

I hear you, but I think you are reading the 'Canon is prepared to cannibalize SLRs' too specifically around the M50 and 4k.  (In the near term, the 80D --> 90D would surely answer your 2nd and 3rd questions above.)

I think Canon was talking bigger than this present moment.  I could be wrong, but I believe the press release / interview (whatever it was) was more about Canon scaling up and expanding its mirrorless ambitions beyond EOS M -- flagged by some folks here as more of a PowerShot-based platform -- into the meat and potatoes elements of their SLR portfolio. 

Mirrorless products with similar footprint/controls/interface to SLRs are coming, and they'll be sold side by side against their SLR counterparts.  That's the cannibalization (I think) they were referring to. 

A mirrorless Rebel is not EOS M (and forget EF-S vs. EF-M for a minute, I am talking about the name and the company's backing of that name).  Once a mirrorless product gets the Rebel moniker and is pushed with the might of the fully operational battlestation that is Canon, it will mark the beginning of the end of mirrors for Canon's volume/dollars workhorse.

- A

Canon bet on dual pixel sensor technology quite a while ago, and the big payoffs from dual pixel technology are in Liveview/mirrorless cameras, especially for video.  I have no idea how Canon sees the future mix of DSLR and mirrorless, but it seems clear that Canon has been laying the foundation for a serious mirrorless presence for several years.  One of the wild cards in the future mix between DSLR and mirrorless may be how important video is to people buying cameras, especially in the aps-c market.  If video is a big deal for a lot of people, then I think that the switchover to mirrorless will be pretty fast. 

At the FF level, I am not so sure.  Video doesn't seem to be part of Nikon's gameplan, and the FF Canon DSLR's are ok for video.  So maybe the big action will be at the aps-c level.

ewg963

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #153 on: March 04, 2018, 06:53:25 AM »
Wow canon behind Olympus, I understand this is my opinion but i think sony makes better mirrorless cameras than both the a9 and riii are tough to deny. How soon will it be before we see a Full Frame mirrorless from canon?
I hope sooner than later because I've been waiting for a FF mirrorless from Canon for a while
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ritholtz

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #154 on: March 04, 2018, 09:57:16 PM »
Video seems to be good until they start moving camera. I think 1 to 1 pixel crop for 4k produces good quality for the targeted users. But no dpaf is a downer. I wish, they will solve one of this problem (crop or dpaf) at least instead of punishing users twice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he6McUd6W1c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OskvGAj9p1Q
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 10:00:45 PM by ritholtz »
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Talys

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #155 on: March 05, 2018, 01:25:20 AM »
Video seems to be good until they start moving camera. I think 1 to 1 pixel crop for 4k produces good quality for the targeted users. But no dpaf is a downer. I wish, they will solve one of this problem (crop or dpaf) at least instead of punishing users twice.


I agree that no DPAF is a downer.  But this is a $740 camera.  I think it's fine in that context, because you must expect to bump into some limitations at that price.

I would say the two downers are no Eye AF in AI Servo mode (I think) and no DPAF in 4k video mode. 

But both would be good incentives to buy the next version up.  Also, something to let Sony come in with a competitor at that price point -- as a6300/a6500 are much more expensive.  And well, Nikon needs to get their act together for live view AF before they're part of that discussion.

C-A430

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #156 on: March 05, 2018, 02:07:33 PM »
Quote
I would be very happy to purchase the M50 except for the dearth of EF-M glass. everything starting at f/4 or f/3.5 and being variable aperture really doesn't cut it. yes, I know there's a single "fast" prime ... which is really a 35 f/2.8 equivalent so not that fast either.

Yes, very poor lens selection, poor battery life, poor buffer seem to be holding Canon back in the mid-range, and of course, nothing in full frame. I am a Canon user, like the DSLR that I have, from a period when Canon was innovating (5D II), have a full complement of lenses, and yet I am seriously thinking of going with the Sony A7rIII or the new A7III. Even the Fuji XT2, with its excellent lens range is much more tempting than anything from Canon now. It is a pity that they are bleeding sales to Sony.

Fuji X has wide selections of lenses, but not excellent lenses. Fuji X lenses are overpriced and often have serious optical flaws. Sorry for replaying to a 4 day old post, but this is a statement that I had to comment on.

Fujifilm XF 50-140mm f2.8 OIS costs $1,600 and I HATE its "look". It is not a bad lens, but its waaay overpriced and its not a portraiture lens. Sigma 50-100 f/1.8 is still the only portraiture zoom for crop cameras. It is much cheaper, faster and has more pleasant "look", especially for portraits. Same goes for other Fuji lenses. If you buy Canon 80D+FF lenses and FUJI T20+its native lenses with comparable price, Canon will produce better images although it uses half-native lenses (same mount but only 40% of the image circle).

Also X-trans sensors give weird output. Fujis great marketing motto of no moire, no color distortion, no AA-filter and film-like image is a huge lie. They have sharpness like AA-filtered bayer sensors and suffer moire (almost?) as much as AA-less bayer sensors. Also, film-like comes from JPEG processing, there is nothing about x-trans raw files that is more film like than same CMOS tech in Nikon APS-C.

How can I trust you anything if your motto is a lie? What if it turned out that GH5 does line skipping? Or that 1DX misses focus 20% and dies from light rain?

I have a hard-on for a SEVERAL Fuji ideas - CMOS pattern bigger than bayer-2x2, 16-50mm kit, another, better f/2.8-4 kit, APS-C + mirrorless, company that has only ONE interchangeable-lens line-up (no FF). Everyone (on CR) wants Canon to do FF MILC. Thats the last thing I want them to do. I am even grateful that they decided to push one APS-C ahead of the other (ef-M gets more lenses than ef-S)
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So going forward we will proactively, and let me emphasize that PROACTIVELY work on expanding our lineup of EF-S or EF-M lenses Masaya Maeda, September 2015
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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #156 on: March 05, 2018, 02:07:33 PM »

ritholtz

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #157 on: March 05, 2018, 07:05:11 PM »
Video seems to be good until they start moving camera. I think 1 to 1 pixel crop for 4k produces good quality for the targeted users. But no dpaf is a downer. I wish, they will solve one of this problem (crop or dpaf) at least instead of punishing users twice.


I agree that no DPAF is a downer.  But this is a $740 camera.  I think it's fine in that context, because you must expect to bump into some limitations at that price.

I would say the two downers are no Eye AF in AI Servo mode (I think) and no DPAF in 4k video mode. 

But both would be good incentives to buy the next version up.  Also, something to let Sony come in with a competitor at that price point -- as a6300/a6500 are much more expensive.  And well, Nikon needs to get their act together for live view AF before they're part of that discussion.
For me only thing missing is DPAF. I can live with the 4k crop. I have used crop (digital zoom) feature with my SL2. It gave me reach to shoot some stage play. Unfortunately there is no dpaf when this functionality used with SL2 as well. 

« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 07:07:24 PM by ritholtz »
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C-A430

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #158 on: March 07, 2018, 06:33:22 AM »
I think the statement is pretty clear. We all know Canon- they have historically NOT cannibalized their DSLRs and now they’re willing to risk it. Why? Because someone else might do it. If there’s money on the table, they want to grab it, and that means it’s up for grabs which means they realize the possibility is there for someone else to grab it- hence, fear of not getting the money ;)

What DSLR does the M50 cannibalize sales of?

Which APSC video-centric DSLRs are there?  Which 4k FF DSLRs would someone not buy, and purchase the M50 instead?

Again, read the statement. They used the term cannibalization.

That is a catch isn't it? Article says it as if they are quoting Canon, but they haven't actually quoted them. Regardless weather you believe Canon is nerfing their products you know that they would never say it. No marketing executive would use the word cannibalize. Headline is "Canon the king of DSLR", but between the lines they introduced the false confirmation that Canon under-equips their products for marketing reasons.

BTW, Sony is known for shady marketing practices (in and outside photography world), and it is Canon that is known for ease-of-use, reliability, durability and customer support. Sony is known for good things too, but when a Sony fanboy calls out Canon for shady marketing practices...
2018 - 7DIII & 5DsII  2019 - 90D & M5II  2020 - 1DxIII & 5DV  2021 - 6DIII  2022 - 7DmIV, me Q3 2017
So going forward we will proactively, and let me emphasize that PROACTIVELY work on expanding our lineup of EF-S or EF-M lenses Masaya Maeda, September 2015
EF-S f/2.8 Macro IS - only EF-S lens since

C-A430

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #159 on: March 07, 2018, 09:06:12 AM »
Video seems to be good until they start moving camera. I think 1 to 1 pixel crop for 4k produces good quality for the targeted users. But no dpaf is a downer. I wish, they will solve one of this problem (crop or dpaf) at least instead of punishing users twice.


I agree that no DPAF is a downer.  But this is a $740 camera.  I think it's fine in that context, because you must expect to bump into some limitations at that price.

I would say the two downers are no Eye AF in AI Servo mode (I think) and no DPAF in 4k video mode. 

But both would be good incentives to buy the next version up.  Also, something to let Sony come in with a competitor at that price point -- as a6300/a6500 are much more expensive.  And well, Nikon needs to get their act together for live view AF before they're part of that discussion.
For me only thing missing is DPAF. I can live with the 4k crop. I have used crop (digital zoom) feature with my SL2. It gave me reach to shoot some stage play. Unfortunately there is no dpaf when this functionality used with SL2 as well.

Why is no DPAF an issue? M50 is using phase detection AF in 4K, just as α6500. In 1080p it has DPAF, something no one has matched yet.

Sony and Panasonic NEVER use DPAF. Am I missing something?
2018 - 7DIII & 5DsII  2019 - 90D & M5II  2020 - 1DxIII & 5DV  2021 - 6DIII  2022 - 7DmIV, me Q3 2017
So going forward we will proactively, and let me emphasize that PROACTIVELY work on expanding our lineup of EF-S or EF-M lenses Masaya Maeda, September 2015
EF-S f/2.8 Macro IS - only EF-S lens since

ritholtz

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #160 on: March 07, 2018, 09:48:23 AM »
Video seems to be good until they start moving camera. I think 1 to 1 pixel crop for 4k produces good quality for the targeted users. But no dpaf is a downer. I wish, they will solve one of this problem (crop or dpaf) at least instead of punishing users twice.


I agree that no DPAF is a downer.  But this is a $740 camera.  I think it's fine in that context, because you must expect to bump into some limitations at that price.

I would say the two downers are no Eye AF in AI Servo mode (I think) and no DPAF in 4k video mode. 

But both would be good incentives to buy the next version up.  Also, something to let Sony come in with a competitor at that price point -- as a6300/a6500 are much more expensive.  And well, Nikon needs to get their act together for live view AF before they're part of that discussion.
For me only thing missing is DPAF. I can live with the 4k crop. I have used crop (digital zoom) feature with my SL2. It gave me reach to shoot some stage play. Unfortunately there is no dpaf when this functionality used with SL2 as well.

Why is no DPAF an issue? M50 is using phase detection AF in 4K, just as α6500. In 1080p it has DPAF, something no one has matched yet.

Sony and Panasonic NEVER use DPAF. Am I missing something?
I think, it is using contrast detection AF. It is early form of focusing with live view and slow. My t3i was like that. It has bunch of modes to help (using OVF phase detect AF) with live view.  Pany and Nikon uses same contrast detection AF. It improved a lot over the time.  Based on your experience, looks like Canon also doing fine with contrast detect AF with 4k. 

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3kramd5

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #161 on: March 07, 2018, 11:05:10 AM »
Video seems to be good until they start moving camera. I think 1 to 1 pixel crop for 4k produces good quality for the targeted users. But no dpaf is a downer. I wish, they will solve one of this problem (crop or dpaf) at least instead of punishing users twice.


I agree that no DPAF is a downer.  But this is a $740 camera.  I think it's fine in that context, because you must expect to bump into some limitations at that price.

I would say the two downers are no Eye AF in AI Servo mode (I think) and no DPAF in 4k video mode. 

But both would be good incentives to buy the next version up.  Also, something to let Sony come in with a competitor at that price point -- as a6300/a6500 are much more expensive.  And well, Nikon needs to get their act together for live view AF before they're part of that discussion.
For me only thing missing is DPAF. I can live with the 4k crop. I have used crop (digital zoom) feature with my SL2. It gave me reach to shoot some stage play. Unfortunately there is no dpaf when this functionality used with SL2 as well.

Why is no DPAF an issue? M50 is using phase detection AF in 4K, just as α6500. In 1080p it has DPAF, something no one has matched yet.

Sony and Panasonic NEVER use DPAF. Am I missing something?



Sony’s latest OSPDAF methodology is somewhere between masked pixels and split pixels. Theoretically it might improve well capacity relative to both of those technologies. There is some indication it is being used in cameras like a7iii.


Dual PDAF

It is a reasonable assumption that both masked PDAF and dual-PD-based systems could exhibit degraded performance in low-light conditions. In the case of masked PDAF, the lower fill factor of partially-masked apertures results in photon loss, as compared to a non-masked neighbor. In the case of dual PD, the twin PDs would require isolation from one another and the surrounding structures. The additional isolation results in an overall reduced full well capacity, as compared to a single PD implemented in the same pixel size.

Recent back-illuminated Sony chips have been found to use a new type of PDAF system that could be described as lossless. The 1.0 µm pixel generation Exmor RS chip in the Apple iPhone 7 Plus used a 1x2 microlens structure over two of eight pixel pairs in selected green-blue rows [16]. The wide microlenses cover a green filter in the Bayer pattern and a green replacement filter in the neighboring blue position. Two of 64 pixels in an 8x8 block use this lens structure and these blocks are distributed across ~95% of the active pixel array. A similar implementation of 1x2 microlenses were found in use in the Sony IMX398 from the Oppo R9s and have been dubbed “Dual PDAF”.

Found via https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60859607, where there is some fascinating analysis and discussion.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 11:09:43 AM by 3kramd5 »

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Re: Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless
« Reply #161 on: March 07, 2018, 11:05:10 AM »