June 23, 2018, 02:13:47 PM

Author Topic: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom  (Read 26965 times)

slclick

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #135 on: March 08, 2018, 12:31:00 PM »
Second, unless people enjoy photography in and of itself (and it seems most people don't), trying and failing to get the shots is frustrating, disheartening, and perplexing. People wonder, why did my shot look like that glossy photo in the brochure? So nowadays my advice in general (emphatically only to non-enthusiasts when they ask) is, don't bother trying to take good pics on holiday of the places you go, and don't take a dedicated camera. There's already thousands of perfect shots of famous places and things - taken by people with the right gear, the right knowledge, or edited to mass taste (and even if your shots *do* turn out well, they'll just be more of the same). Take a phone, snap a bit if you like, but just enjoy yourself.

This probably makes me sound very jaded, but obviously it doesn't apply if you like photography. Then the process is a goal in itself. Of course even the best and most motivated may not create the images they want, but so long as the process brings pleasure, it ultimately shouldn't matter.

I think there is great wisdom in this.

Amazing photography is just like any other art, craft, or skill.  If you want stuff that's as good as what you see commercially, you'll need to spend a lot of time learning and improving, and the improvements will come very gradually with successes interspersed with failures.  If you don't want to do that, save yourself the grief and money, pick up that smartphone and record a happy memory and move on.

On the other hand, there ARE people who get the photography bug!

Great posts. I have an rare opportunity to return to a destination this next June which I was just at last December. I took the little gear, the M5 kit and while I did take my time and employ the best photographic practices I could with the new body and lenses it was still closer to iphone photography all in all than the experience if I would have packed my FF gear and tripod/filters etc. Family was a key issue, you all know the drill, no one wants to wait and you need to venture off alone before they all wake up and whatnot. But this June I will be without kids, will take the big bag and my time as well.  It's taken many years to get to know what to pack, what not to bring and just how to live in the moment without thinking photographically and truly being present.
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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #135 on: March 08, 2018, 12:31:00 PM »

stevelee

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #136 on: March 09, 2018, 12:14:14 AM »
Most people were taking pictures of themselves. Some were even carrying sticks to attach their phones for the purpose. They visited some of the most beautiful places on earth, and took few if any pictures of the scenery other that what can be seen on the edge of the picture.

Susan Sontag wrote "Most tourists feel compelled to put the camera between themselves and whatever is remarkable that they encounter. Unsure of other responses they take a picture. This gives shape to experience: stop, take a photograph, and move on."

Now they feel compelled to put themselves between the camera and whatever is remarkable - it's the self-centered world of social networks, where "social" gets a twisted meaning.

In some ways, cameras like the 2/4000D which are not selfie-friendly, can help to bring back the idea photography is something more, and often is an exercise in "seeing better".

Sontag’s remark reminds me of why I went some years leaving cameras at home when I traveled. Back when I was more serious about photography, I tended to shoot pictures rather than see things and do things. It was only in 2000 that I felt like I could venture taking a camera along. I did fairly well until I got to Prague. I bought more slide film every day by the Charles Bridge. If I ever go back, it will be unashamedly a photo trip. And beer drinking, and I’m not that fond of beer, but Czech beer is that good.

The G7X II is small enough not to get in my way. I took a helicopter ride on Hawaii and shot video during it. I just held the camera pointed in the general direction where I was looking and only occasionally glanced at the screen. The result was pretty decent after I edited it. It and the video I bought from the helicopter company’s video of our trip document my experience. I similarly shot video watching a Blue Angels practice run in Pensacola in sun too bright to see the screen, just pointing the camera in the right general direction without being in my way of watching it live. Most of the video was surprisingly good.

My travel photos reflect me more than if I were in the pictures. They document what I saw and the way I saw them. My RAW/Photoshop edits are largely efforts to make the pictures reflect how things looked to me then.

In August when I shot the total eclipse with my T3i, I promised myself that I would quit shooting during totality and just enjoy the rare experience. But when the time came, there I was unscrewing the filter and fiddling with exposure guesses. I did look at it with my eyes and looked around at the crowd and took a few crowd and ambiance shots with the G7X II. The minute and a half seemed like seconds, and I still mix regret that I did that with the pleasure of having the photos, including a diamond ring shot just as totality ended.

I’m in Washington DC for a basketball tournament and have visited some of the museums on the Mall. I didn’t even take my camera with me today. I used the iPhone to shoot the guy in a giant gecko outfit sitting near me, and that was about it.

Don Haines

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #137 on: March 09, 2018, 01:21:53 AM »
For me, Nirvana is the camera and a solo canoe. With it along, I tend to explore more and notice things more.... without it, paddling can degenerate into getting somewhere or just exercise.
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LDS

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #138 on: March 09, 2018, 05:02:38 AM »
Meh. My perspective is very different, and I'll make two brief points. First, I've spent my life doing the opposite - taking photogaphs of other things, and almost never myself or people in general. And now I regret that the record of my own life is missing big chunks. I have lots of bland, generic shots of buildings, landscapes, sunsets, market stalls from holidays, which could have been taken by anyone.

There's a big difference between pictures of our life - even self-portraits - and selfies. Selfies are too identical to each other, it''s their very nature, and rather always excluding the environment but small pieces just to show enough to tell one wasn't at home.

Self-portraits are an ancient form of art - but they were still made to tell something. Selfies, with their identical framing and pose, face expression, in-phone filters, etc. etc. tells nothing, and there's an inherent "fakeness" in them, and a dose of selfishness.

I prefer by far candid shots which tells far more about my life, the people around me, and the environment they were made in - and sure, nowadays you can take good ones with a good smartphone camera too.

One risk is smartphone photography is too "fashion-driven", people are forced into thinking they have to do like "everybody else", or better, a restricted number of "influencers" (often paid) do - and they have to use  the same imagery and channels because it's there where big money through ads are made.

I think anything that goes against this huge drive to conformity is welcome.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 05:15:01 AM by LDS »

Valvebounce

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #139 on: March 09, 2018, 09:28:54 AM »
Hi Folks.
A far more interesting topic than the original, fascinating how threads evolve much like personal conversations!
When asked why I take photos my response is “I’m behind the camera because I hate being in front of it.”
I hate pictures of me unless they are completely candid, if I see you lining up a shot I wil turn away, that is how strongly I feel about it.
Yes I have little or no proof that I have been anywhere very much, but I have seen and done many things of interest to me and at present I can remember them! Whether being dipped along with the sheep as a child whilst on summer holiday at a farm will change that I don’t know? ;D

Cheers, Graham.

Meh. My perspective is very different, and I'll make two brief points. First, I've spent my life doing the opposite - taking photogaphs of other things, and almost never myself or people in general. And now I regret that the record of my own life is missing big chunks. I have lots of bland, generic shots of buildings, landscapes, sunsets, market stalls from holidays, which could have been taken by anyone.

There's a big difference between pictures of our life - even self-portraits - and selfies. Selfies are too identical to each other, it''s their very nature, and rather always excluding the environment but small pieces just to show enough to tell one wasn't at home.

Self-portraits are an ancient form of art - but they were still made to tell something. Selfies, with their identical framing and pose, face expression, in-phone filters, etc. etc. tells nothing, and there's an inherent "fakeness" in them, and a dose of selfishness.

I prefer by far candid shots which tells far more about my life, the people around me, and the environment they were made in - and sure, nowadays you can take good ones with a good smartphone camera too.

One risk is smartphone photography is too "fashion-driven", people are forced into thinking they have to do like "everybody else", or better, a restricted number of "influencers" (often paid) do - and they have to use  the same imagery and channels because it's there where big money through ads are made.

I think anything that goes against this huge drive to conformity is welcome.
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YuengLinger

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #140 on: March 09, 2018, 09:35:49 AM »
Hi Folks.
A far more interesting topic than the original, fascinating how threads evolve much like personal conversations!
When asked why I take photos my response is “I’m behind the camera because I hate being in front of it.”
I hate pictures of me unless they are completely candid, if I see you lining up a shot I wil turn away, that is how strongly I feel about it.
Yes I have little or no proof that I have been anywhere very much, but I have seen and done many things of interest to me and at present I can remember them! Whether being dipped along with the sheep as a child whilst on summer holiday at a farm will change that I don’t know? ;D

Cheers, Graham.


I hear you!  But I think the majority of current portrait photographers have gotten away from the dour, static, or pained poses that made subjects wonder what they were paying for.  Planned sessions now produce dynamic, expressive images.  And this is thanks to many factors, including affordable dSLR's, tons of instructing available for free on the Web, sites such as pinterest...

scyrene

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #141 on: March 09, 2018, 10:28:50 AM »
Meh. My perspective is very different, and I'll make two brief points. First, I've spent my life doing the opposite - taking photogaphs of other things, and almost never myself or people in general. And now I regret that the record of my own life is missing big chunks. I have lots of bland, generic shots of buildings, landscapes, sunsets, market stalls from holidays, which could have been taken by anyone.

There's a big difference between pictures of our life - even self-portraits - and selfies. Selfies are too identical to each other, it''s their very nature, and rather always excluding the environment but small pieces just to show enough to tell one wasn't at home.

Self-portraits are an ancient form of art - but they were still made to tell something. Selfies, with their identical framing and pose, face expression, in-phone filters, etc. etc. tells nothing, and there's an inherent "fakeness" in them, and a dose of selfishness.

I prefer by far candid shots which tells far more about my life, the people around me, and the environment they were made in - and sure, nowadays you can take good ones with a good smartphone camera too.

One risk is smartphone photography is too "fashion-driven", people are forced into thinking they have to do like "everybody else", or better, a restricted number of "influencers" (often paid) do - and they have to use  the same imagery and channels because it's there where big money through ads are made.

I think anything that goes against this huge drive to conformity is welcome.

Yes, some people's selfies look alike - people often strike the pose they knew looked good (to their taste) last time. But I strongly reject the accusation of selfishness. Why is it selfish? That just seems a way of telling people to act a certain way (conforming to your views, which is funny as you talk negatively about conformity, on which more below).

I also reject the old trope that created works ('art') have value because of the meaning it contains, or conveys. I see this a lot in discussions around photographers considered the best in their field - oh well, because of this diagonal the landscape draws you in, or this portrait tells a story. No. The 'artist as magician' thing that's simply elitism. We can read all sorts into images when we view them. We can attempt to put narrative into images when we create them. But images are just images. They aren't stories, they aren't portals into the soul or the eternal or whatever else people ascribe to them. We each react in our way to creating them, or viewing them, and that is a matter of personal preference.

And on conformity, well humans are conformist. There's a spectrum of behaviour, both across and within people. But most people who think they're non-conformist are just conforming in a different way, and that seems to me a worse cliché - oh, I'm not like those sheep, I'm special. A truly original creation is a very rare thing (and novelty-as-value is another long-held cliché that lacks convincing foundation).

Anyway, this is all very off topic - on which I'll say, anything that makes photography accessible to those who want to do it is a good thing!
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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #141 on: March 09, 2018, 10:28:50 AM »

LDS

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #142 on: March 09, 2018, 10:34:52 AM »
A far more interesting topic than the original, fascinating how threads evolve much like personal conversations!

It's not so far from the original - different imaging devices also carry an imagery philosophy with them - people don't use smartphones as they use a camera. So, bringing to the market an affordable camera like the 4000D implies also to keep on bringing a different imagery attitude.

old-pr-pix

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #143 on: March 09, 2018, 11:02:52 AM »
Few smartphones provide anything other than a very wide angle view.  Hence selfies and other people pictures tend toward the usual wide distortion that most portrait photographers would avoid by using a longer FL lens and greater camera-subject distance.  According to Rutgers, it seems the ubiquitous smartphone 'look' is now driving more people to have their face altered.  https://news.rutgers.edu/research-news/selfies-drive-self-image-and-may-lead-many-seek-plastic-surgery/20180301#.WqKs7DGWyUk

Rather than use the best tool for the job, use what's already in your hand; but, only after seeing your cosmetic surgeon!
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LDS

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #144 on: March 09, 2018, 11:07:23 AM »
But I strongly reject the accusation of selfishness. Why is it selfish? That just seems a way of telling people to act a certain way (conforming to your views, which is funny as you talk negatively about conformity, on which more below).

It's prepending always the "I" in front of everything else. IMHO the whole "social network" world is in reality not "social" but
"selfish" - the endless self-promotion in competition with others measured by "likes" - and moreover everything happens inside a cage designed by others for their own advantage.

Don't get me wrong, the occasional selfie is OK, but when it becomes mostly the only way you image the world around you and to describe you, I think there's something wrong.

I also reject the old trope that created works ('art') have value because of the meaning it contains, or conveys.

I just said images that "tells" - telling an history, not a "deep meaning", maybe just simple your history - because there's something "happening" in the images - maybe something that is understandable only by you and close people, and it could be not art at all.

Selfies are static - they don't tell anything, but maybe that you were in a place barely recognizable, and are designed to be shown off to others. I have photos of me where I'm far from being happy and beautiful. They also tell stories about me, stories that are sad but still part of me, and of course I wouldn't publish them on a social - if I published anything, of course.

And on conformity, well humans are conformist. There's a spectrum of behaviour, both across and within people.

True - and the cunning social engineers knows it very well, and exploit it fully to make a lot of money. The whole "social network" system is design around conformism, and to never challenge people attitudes and thinking. Never get out of your comfort zone, be fed only with contents you surely "like", and especially, you'll likely to buy.

But most people who think they're non-conformist are just conforming in a different way, and that seems to me a worse cliché - oh, I'm not like those sheep, I'm special. A truly original creation is a very rare thing (and novelty-as-value is another long-held cliché that lacks convincing foundation).

True. But as long as you avoid to challenge people minds, and just use positive feedback to strengthen preconceptions, while refusing innovative thinking, you'll make it rarer and rarer.

I've seen recently people at photo course snubbing the works of photographers like Robert Frank, Stephen Shore or Andras Gursky because they are not like the images they are used to see and they aim to make. Of course, you don't have to like them or copy them, but they instantly refused them, not the slightest attempt to relate with them.

That's why I welcome a camera like the 4000D, its limitations could be actually be useful.

Anyway, this is all very off topic - on which I'll say, anything that makes photography accessible to those who want to do it is a good thing!

So, we agree on that, at least :)

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #145 on: March 09, 2018, 11:08:33 AM »
Hence selfies and other people pictures tend toward the usual wide distortion that most portrait photographers would avoid by using a longer FL lens and greater camera-subject distance.

Yay, thank you... someone who gets it :)

I'm amazed at how often people talk about the magnification ability of a camera and its field of view, but totally ignore the perspective aspect of choosing a different focal length lens -- which, in my opinion, is the MOST important reason to choose a different FL.

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #146 on: March 09, 2018, 11:11:54 AM »
Few smartphones provide anything other than a very wide angle view.  Hence selfies and other people pictures tend toward the usual wide distortion that most portrait photographers would avoid by using a longer FL lens and greater camera-subject distance.  According to Rutgers, it seems the ubiquitous smartphone 'look' is now driving more people to have their face altered.  https://news.rutgers.edu/research-news/selfies-drive-self-image-and-may-lead-many-seek-plastic-surgery/20180301#.WqKs7DGWyUk

Rather than use the best tool for the job, use what's already in your hand; but, only after seeing your cosmetic surgeon!

Or get a telephoto lens attachment and a really long selfie stick...

 
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old-pr-pix

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #147 on: March 09, 2018, 11:35:32 AM »
Few smartphones provide anything other than a very wide angle view.  Hence selfies and other people pictures tend toward the usual wide distortion that most portrait photographers would avoid by using a longer FL lens and greater camera-subject distance.  According to Rutgers, it seems the ubiquitous smartphone 'look' is now driving more people to have their face altered.  https://news.rutgers.edu/research-news/selfies-drive-self-image-and-may-lead-many-seek-plastic-surgery/20180301#.WqKs7DGWyUk

Rather than use the best tool for the job, use what's already in your hand; but, only after seeing your cosmetic surgeon!

Or get a telephoto lens attachment and a really long selfie stick...

 
Excellent!  Problem solved  ;)
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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #147 on: March 09, 2018, 11:35:32 AM »

espressino

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #148 on: March 13, 2018, 02:21:18 PM »
The only way I can make sense of this camera is that Canon wants to stabilise its prices by defining a ‘bottom’ model, from which onwards potential purchasers can then think “if i spend x €/$/$ more I get x, y, z features more, so I’ll go for the xyzD.”

Last year in summer, a while before the M100 came out, the M10 with kit lens was available at around 300€, a lot less than the suggested retail price for the 4000D (I know, we don’t know yet what the 4000D will actually sell for). I know the M10 has other shortcomings, but if someone is serious about wanting to upgrade from smart phones, the transition is made easier, and more intuitively, when they use an M10.  I think I’d even prefer an 1000D to the 4000 because the lower resolution makes it so much more forgiving about slight focus errors. No wifi? The app is full of bugs anyway and usually its faster to take out the SD card and put it into an adapter which connects to your phone.

I think I agree with the main point of the article: If I imagine I was 17 years old again and looking to buy my first camera from the money I earned on my paper route (I know I know): the EOS 4000D has no touch interface, the flash must be popped up manually, Canon even saved on the green ink to print on the camera body. I think this is just setting up consumers for disappointment because the user interface really won’t resemble that of a smartphone. The companion app is free to download for every Canon user. But it also tells you about lots of features your camera doesn’t have — isn’t that just rubbing it in? My 17-year-old self would feel cheated, and probably wouldn’t come back to this manufacturer. When I got the EOS 1000D as my first DSLR (after an analog 300V) I knew I was getting an entry-level model, but I knew I could ‘trust’ Canon. And that’s why I stuck with them, even though I could have bought into a different ecosystem when I upgraded since I’d been using the kit lens for years.

I think this trust is also important when investing in new glass: when I feel that I bought an entry-level model in which they kind of short-changed me, how would I know that this wouldn’t happen again with all those lenses which are great value for money (and which were essential, for me, in realising that a new lens won’t cost me the world and that it is actually possible to explore photography some more, and to take baby steps towards upgrading my gear.)

I guess that camera hardware used to have longer obsolescence cycles than smartphones (and, since mirrorless is still catching up, they have faster re-fresh cycles too), but I’m not sure this is still working with DSLRS. Why should I get a 4000D for my nephew when a model released 10 years ago offers basically the same functions? And it's not about paying for a Toyota and expecting a Ferrari, it's about what the camera promises: ease of use and a step up from smartphones, and I'm not sure if it actually delivers on this basic promise without the newly minted photographer having to jump so many hurdles that many of them might lose interest before they even got started.

Talys

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #149 on: March 14, 2018, 02:16:12 AM »

I think I agree with the main point of the article: If I imagine I was 17 years old again and looking to buy my first camera from the money I earned on my paper route ...


Try to imagine if you lived in a country where a full-time manager with seniority at the newspaper made a salary of $800, and must support their family with that.

Now, try to imagine what the 17 year old boy who delievers those papers makes.

How much do you think he or she could spend on a camera?

Now, try to imagine that in this boy's country, cameras pretty much all cost at least twice as much as they do in your country -- because that's the reality of it.  That M5 or A6500 is looking pretty distant.

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #149 on: March 14, 2018, 02:16:12 AM »