June 22, 2018, 03:37:27 AM

Author Topic: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom  (Read 26827 times)

espressino

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #150 on: March 14, 2018, 06:32:04 AM »

I think I agree with the main point of the article: If I imagine I was 17 years old again and looking to buy my first camera from the money I earned on my paper route ...


Try to imagine if you lived in a country where a full-time manager with seniority at the newspaper made a salary of $800, and must support their family with that.

Now, try to imagine what the 17 year old boy who delievers those papers makes.

How much do you think he or she could spend on a camera?

Now, try to imagine that in this boy's country, cameras pretty much all cost at least twice as much as they do in your country -- because that's the reality of it.  That M5 or A6500 is looking pretty distant.

Yes, and that's why I said that the M10 sells for less than the 4000D atm. I was talking about what entry-level models offer, and maybe to put it more generally: there might be older models around that are better suited for beginners and will be priced similarly. Nowhere did I mention the A5 or A6500. And there's a great twitter essay by Teju Cole on how it's condescending to think that people in the Global South don't have 'first world problems' too.

And by the way, my Eos 77D cost me a month's salary.

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #150 on: March 14, 2018, 06:32:04 AM »

LDS

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #151 on: March 14, 2018, 10:10:30 AM »
I think this is just setting up consumers for disappointment because the user interface really won’t resemble that of a smartphone.

Do you think people are so stupid? Smartphone users may also use Playstation, XBox or Switch consoles where they know very well how physical controls help to concentrate on what's happening while using both hands to control different functions at the same time, instead of looking for visual controls on the screen and touching them and check if they've been activated. In a camera like this touch would be mosly useful to inspect photos only. Touch AF won't work, and menu navigation doesn't really require touch.

But it also tells you about lots of features your camera doesn’t have — isn’t that just rubbing it in? My 17-year-old self would feel cheated, and probably wouldn’t come back to this manufacturer.

Why? When I was a teenager I very well knew my camera lacked more advanced features I could not afford - still, I was happy to have a camera that would let me control the image creating process, even if it required some more effort. Even today, I would like the exposure scale 1D cameras have in the viewfinder, on the right, and my 5D has not, but I'm not willingly to spend some thousand more for it.

Does the same people feel cheated when their $75/100smartphone lacks the features of the $900 ones? Or just dream to buy the more expensive model one day?

One feels cheated if promised features that are not available or won't work really. Buying a cheap device implies limitations.

If you look at this camera top-down, of course it is severely lacking - just, look at it bottom-up. And no one is forced to buy the 4000D, some will prefer some upper model - Canon decided to segment the low-end more - in an attempt to push more SLRs.

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #152 on: March 14, 2018, 10:43:30 AM »
This thread is near comical...we have an entry level item that so many folks have an issue with because it doesn't represent what beginning photography or technology should be for someone coming into the art form at square one.

One of the worst things you can do to anyone learning something from the git go is giving them too many options and pulling the onus away from the basics. This model is a great starting point and arguing about DR, 4k, frame rates etc missing the point entirely. If you think Canon's offerings on the bottom are telling moments about the future of the lineup you are missing yet another point about the basic needs of new photographers, students, emerging economies and budgets.

Craig, close the hasp on this one.
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espressino

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #153 on: March 14, 2018, 10:55:27 AM »
I think this is just setting up consumers for disappointment because the user interface really won’t resemble that of a smartphone.

Do you think people are so stupid? Smartphone users may also use Playstation, XBox or Switch consoles where they know very well how physical controls help to concentrate on what's happening while using both hands to control different functions at the same time, instead of looking for visual controls on the screen and touching them and check if they've been activated. In a camera like this touch would be mosly useful to inspect photos only. Touch AF won't work, and menu navigation doesn't really require touch.

But it also tells you about lots of features your camera doesn’t have — isn’t that just rubbing it in? My 17-year-old self would feel cheated, and probably wouldn’t come back to this manufacturer.

Why? When I was a teenager I very well knew my camera lacked more advanced features I could not afford - still, I was happy to have a camera that would let me control the image creating process, even if it required some more effort. Even today, I would like the exposure scale 1D cameras have in the viewfinder, on the right, and my 5D has not, but I'm not willingly to spend some thousand more for it.

Does the same people feel cheated when their $75/100smartphone lacks the features of the $900 ones? Or just dream to buy the more expensive model one day?

One feels cheated if promised features that are not available or won't work really. Buying a cheap device implies limitations.

If you look at this camera top-down, of course it is severely lacking - just, look at it bottom-up. And no one is forced to buy the 4000D, some will prefer some upper model - Canon decided to segment the low-end more - in an attempt to push more SLRs.


Canon markets this as “a step up from smartphones”. I did not introduce the phone analogy, it’s Canon who are using it, and I’m just saying that the analogy doesn’t work. If you sit someone who has never held a DSLR in his hands down with this camera then none of the gestures they have internalised or feel natural will work (sorry, I have no data for this, just anecdotal evidence). Tough luck, you will say, that’s not how photography works. But maybe that’s how some grow into it — and for many focus by touch simply is the way a camera is ‘supposed’ to work. There’s nothing proper or improper about this. Even entering your wifi code without touch is a pain; even the rudimentary live view focus in the 1000D would have benefitted from a touch screen simply because it would make it easier to move the focus point (Had touch been available at the time at relatively low cost; I’m not saying that that’s what the camera should have had 10 years ago. I’m saying technology has developped in the past ten years).

This is still an expensive camera. And Canon has a history of putting excellent features in low-priced cameras.

But yes, sit someone down with a Nokia 3310 and tell them that they shouldn’t expect more from a phone because that’s just the way the world is. Expecting a touch interface in a 399 model would just be an illusion of grandeur.

I think my first reply stated just that: it’s a move by Canon to segment the entry-level market. All I did was question the wisdom of this move, and I truly apologise for it. And I’m sorry that my own scholarship on poverty in the Global South interfered with my fairly recent research in all aspects of Canon’s entry-level line-up. I find it just a bit odd that two people who proclaim to own a 5DS R are lecturing me about what to expect from a low-end camera.

espressino

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #154 on: March 14, 2018, 11:05:00 AM »
I think this is just setting up consumers for disappointment because the user interface really won’t resemble that of a smartphone.

Do you think people are so stupid? Smartphone users may also use Playstation, XBox or Switch consoles where they know very well how physical controls help to concentrate on what's happening while using both hands to control different functions at the same time, instead of looking for visual controls on the screen and touching them and check if they've been activated. In a camera like this touch would be mosly useful to inspect photos only. Touch AF won't work, and menu navigation doesn't really require touch.

But it also tells you about lots of features your camera doesn’t have — isn’t that just rubbing it in? My 17-year-old self would feel cheated, and probably wouldn’t come back to this manufacturer.

Why? When I was a teenager I very well knew my camera lacked more advanced features I could not afford - still, I was happy to have a camera that would let me control the image creating process, even if it required some more effort. Even today, I would like the exposure scale 1D cameras have in the viewfinder, on the right, and my 5D has not, but I'm not willingly to spend some thousand more for it.

Does the same people feel cheated when their $75/100smartphone lacks the features of the $900 ones? Or just dream to buy the more expensive model one day?

One feels cheated if promised features that are not available or won't work really. Buying a cheap device implies limitations.

If you look at this camera top-down, of course it is severely lacking - just, look at it bottom-up. And no one is forced to buy the 4000D, some will prefer some upper model - Canon decided to segment the low-end more - in an attempt to push more SLRs.

And incidentally I wasn't comparing apples and oranges: both the M10 and the 4000D have a suggested retail price of 399€ in Europe (kit version). So I was not calling for, or expecting there to be, any Ferrari-like features to be included.

LDS

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #155 on: March 14, 2018, 12:29:57 PM »
And incidentally I wasn't comparing apples and oranges: both the M10 and the 4000D have a suggested retail price of 399€ in Europe (kit version). So I was not calling for, or expecting there to be, any Ferrari-like features to be included.

The 4000D and M10 have two very different user interface - and target different users. If you have a viewfinder and want to use it, you need physical controls to change settings without going back and forth from the viewfinder to the rear screen, and the touch screen becomes irrelevant while shooting.

On the M10 the touchscreen helps to reduce the number of physical controls needed, and you have to use the screen anyway to shoot, so a touch screen works well.

Cheap devices - phone, cars, washing machines, etc. do sell well to people who couldn't afford them otherwise. Actually, many shops are filled with low-end and cheaper devices, you may have to go to specialized ones to find and buy the more expensive ones.

You just need to avoid to deceive customers pretending you're selling them something far superior. Most customers are not stupid - they understand what they buy.

espressino

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #156 on: March 14, 2018, 01:40:25 PM »
And incidentally I wasn't comparing apples and oranges: both the M10 and the 4000D have a suggested retail price of 399€ in Europe (kit version). So I was not calling for, or expecting there to be, any Ferrari-like features to be included.

The 4000D and M10 have two very different user interface - and target different users. If you have a viewfinder and want to use it, you need physical controls to change settings without going back and forth from the viewfinder to the rear screen, and the touch screen becomes irrelevant while shooting.

On the M10 the touchscreen helps to reduce the number of physical controls needed, and you have to use the screen anyway to shoot, so a touch screen works well.

Cheap devices - phone, cars, washing machines, etc. do sell well to people who couldn't afford them otherwise. Actually, many shops are filled with low-end and cheaper devices, you may have to go to specialized ones to find and buy the more expensive ones.

You just need to avoid to deceive customers pretending you're selling them something far superior. Most customers are not stupid - they understand what they buy.

Absolutely. I agree with every single point you make.

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #156 on: March 14, 2018, 01:40:25 PM »

C-A430

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #157 on: March 19, 2018, 11:06:20 AM »
I think this is just setting up consumers for disappointment because the user interface really won’t resemble that of a smartphone.

Do you think people are so stupid? Smartphone users may also use Playstation, XBox or Switch consoles where they know very well how physical controls help to concentrate on what's happening while using both hands to control different functions at the same time, instead of looking for visual controls on the screen and touching them and check if they've been activated. In a camera like this touch would be mosly useful to inspect photos only. Touch AF won't work, and menu navigation doesn't really require touch.

But it also tells you about lots of features your camera doesn’t have — isn’t that just rubbing it in? My 17-year-old self would feel cheated, and probably wouldn’t come back to this manufacturer.

Why? When I was a teenager I very well knew my camera lacked more advanced features I could not afford - still, I was happy to have a camera that would let me control the image creating process, even if it required some more effort. Even today, I would like the exposure scale 1D cameras have in the viewfinder, on the right, and my 5D has not, but I'm not willingly to spend some thousand more for it.

Does the same people feel cheated when their $75/100smartphone lacks the features of the $900 ones? Or just dream to buy the more expensive model one day?

One feels cheated if promised features that are not available or won't work really. Buying a cheap device implies limitations.

If you look at this camera top-down, of course it is severely lacking - just, look at it bottom-up. And no one is forced to buy the 4000D, some will prefer some upper model - Canon decided to segment the low-end more - in an attempt to push more SLRs.


Canon markets this as “a step up from smartphones”. I did not introduce the phone analogy, it’s Canon who are using it, and I’m just saying that the analogy doesn’t work. If you sit someone who has never held a DSLR in his hands down with this camera then none of the gestures they have internalised or feel natural will work (sorry, I have no data for this, just anecdotal evidence). Tough luck, you will say, that’s not how photography works. But maybe that’s how some grow into it — and for many focus by touch simply is the way a camera is ‘supposed’ to work. There’s nothing proper or improper about this. Even entering your wifi code without touch is a pain; even the rudimentary live view focus in the 1000D would have benefitted from a touch screen simply because it would make it easier to move the focus point (Had touch been available at the time at relatively low cost; I’m not saying that that’s what the camera should have had 10 years ago. I’m saying technology has developped in the past ten years).

This is still an expensive camera. And Canon has a history of putting excellent features in low-priced cameras.

But yes, sit someone down with a Nokia 3310 and tell them that they shouldn’t expect more from a phone because that’s just the way the world is. Expecting a touch interface in a 399 model would just be an illusion of grandeur.

I think my first reply stated just that: it’s a move by Canon to segment the entry-level market. All I did was question the wisdom of this move, and I truly apologise for it. And I’m sorry that my own scholarship on poverty in the Global South interfered with my fairly recent research in all aspects of Canon’s entry-level line-up. I find it just a bit odd that two people who proclaim to own a 5DS R are lecturing me about what to expect from a low-end camera.

That is exactly why it is a good step-up - you will lose your bad habits from your 100€ phone and get used to DSLR controls. Then you can quickly find your way with your university's, your company's or your bosses 5DIII or 70D.
2018 - 7DIII & 5DsII  2019 - 90D & M5II  2020 - 1DxIII & 5DV  2021 - 6DIII  2022 - 7DmIV, me Q3 2017
So going forward we will proactively, and let me emphasize that PROACTIVELY work on expanding our lineup of EF-S or EF-M lenses Masaya Maeda, September 2015
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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #158 on: March 19, 2018, 11:22:48 AM »
And incidentally I wasn't comparing apples and oranges: both the M10 and the 4000D have a suggested retail price of 399€ in Europe (kit version). So I was not calling for, or expecting there to be, any Ferrari-like features to be included.

The 4000D and M10 have two very different user interface - and target different users. If you have a viewfinder and want to use it, you need physical controls to change settings without going back and forth from the viewfinder to the rear screen, and the touch screen becomes irrelevant while shooting.

On the M10 the touchscreen helps to reduce the number of physical controls needed, and you have to use the screen anyway to shoot, so a touch screen works well.

Cheap devices - phone, cars, washing machines, etc. do sell well to people who couldn't afford them otherwise. Actually, many shops are filled with low-end and cheaper devices, you may have to go to specialized ones to find and buy the more expensive ones.

You just need to avoid to deceive customers pretending you're selling them something far superior. Most customers are not stupid - they understand what they buy.

Absolutely. I agree with every single point you make.

I agree, but must come back to the previous post for a moment.

In Eastern Europe, Middle East, Africa and probably India too, M10 is not selling at half price. It will be "current" camera and have full price until Nederlands gets M100 at half price AND sells them all. Only then will M10 be discounted and still it will not sell out until 2022.

4000D is NOT meant for people who are used to 400€ smartphones and can buy M10 for 2 days pay, but for those who live where M10 is still selling for original MRP+tax in a place where that is 2 monthly salaries.

One of these days I will post a picture of shops in my area selling Canon 70D and Nikon 5300D for 800-1200€ (new with kit lens). M10 never reached my city and never will. Maybe M50 will, next year, for a 800€.
2018 - 7DIII & 5DsII  2019 - 90D & M5II  2020 - 1DxIII & 5DV  2021 - 6DIII  2022 - 7DmIV, me Q3 2017
So going forward we will proactively, and let me emphasize that PROACTIVELY work on expanding our lineup of EF-S or EF-M lenses Masaya Maeda, September 2015
EF-S f/2.8 Macro IS - only EF-S lens since

espressino

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #159 on: March 19, 2018, 07:51:08 PM »
And incidentally I wasn't comparing apples and oranges: both the M10 and the 4000D have a suggested retail price of 399€ in Europe (kit version). So I was not calling for, or expecting there to be, any Ferrari-like features to be included.

The 4000D and M10 have two very different user interface - and target different users. If you have a viewfinder and want to use it, you need physical controls to change settings without going back and forth from the viewfinder to the rear screen, and the touch screen becomes irrelevant while shooting.

On the M10 the touchscreen helps to reduce the number of physical controls needed, and you have to use the screen anyway to shoot, so a touch screen works well.

Cheap devices - phone, cars, washing machines, etc. do sell well to people who couldn't afford them otherwise. Actually, many shops are filled with low-end and cheaper devices, you may have to go to specialized ones to find and buy the more expensive ones.

You just need to avoid to deceive customers pretending you're selling them something far superior. Most customers are not stupid - they understand what they buy.

Absolutely. I agree with every single point you make.

I agree, but must come back to the previous post for a moment.

In Eastern Europe, Middle East, Africa and probably India too, M10 is not selling at half price. It will be "current" camera and have full price until Nederlands gets M100 at half price AND sells them all. Only then will M10 be discounted and still it will not sell out until 2022.

4000D is NOT meant for people who are used to 400€ smartphones and can buy M10 for 2 days pay, but for those who live where M10 is still selling for original MRP+tax in a place where that is 2 monthly salaries.

One of these days I will post a picture of shops in my area selling Canon 70D and Nikon 5300D for 800-1200€ (new with kit lens). M10 never reached my city and never will. Maybe M50 will, next year, for a 800€.

Well you may be right, but we cannot know which market the 4000D is 'actually' meant for. All I can say is that it's sold in Europe - even if it isn't meant for that market, and Canon's official suggested retail price is the same for the M10 and the 4000D. Incidentally, it is the same SRP as the 1000D ten years ago, and that was a camera which was more capable, relative to what was available in higher segments of the market back then. And some early reviewers agree (https://www.techradar.com/reviews/canon-eos-4000d).

And even if the camera is meant for emerging economies instead of Europe and the US, then that is another reason to take issue with the fact that camera companies seek to unload old hardware at inflated prices in these markets. (Even price parity would be an issue because of differences in purchasing power; but then again how would one stop cameras from being re-imported.)

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #160 on: April 02, 2018, 09:35:20 AM »
We ourselves are unique - whereas most of our experiences are not. I value 1000x more a shot of a person who mattered to me, in a time long gone, than all but the very best shots of things or places (except where those places have also irrevocably changed and haven't been photographed by many others).
Could not agree more.

When I started photographing I studied and even visited some of the world's leading photographers to learn about their photographic philosophy.

My conclusion was that people are the most engaging subject by far so I decided I would "always" take pictures of people. The result has been that my pictures create a lot of popular interest and have been picked up by all kinds of media.

Today my pictures have probably eclipsed 100 mio. views. Of course any number of views does not reflect any photographic quality. But it does reflect that a lot of people like looking at people-centered pictures.

There are lots of remarkable and memorable/moving nature, landscape, macro, cityscapes etc. etc. But for pure human interest, people shots stand head and shoulders over all other subjects.

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Re: Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom
« Reply #160 on: April 02, 2018, 09:35:20 AM »