July 16, 2018, 08:19:15 PM

Author Topic: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]  (Read 33486 times)

Don Haines

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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #150 on: March 19, 2018, 05:28:48 AM »
The move from FD to EF was to provide an image circle that was large enough to cover a FF sensor and to allow electronic communications between the camera and the lens. Nothing changes with mirrorless. Essentially, a mirrorless FF camera is a regular camera in live-view mode. There is no absolute compelling reason to change, so why should they?

There are some very vocal forum members who insist that Canon needs a new mount in order to make a mirrorless FF camera as small as possible. This is wrong. Making it smaller is a design choice, not an absolute requirement. If this was the the over-riding design criteria, then canon would act on it, and such a decision would have both positive and negative results.

1) it would be a smaller camera body. Depending on the person, this can be argued as a plus or a minus.

2) new mount. HUGE minus. Canon would have to start from scratch and redesign their lens lineup. Lenses designed for high quality would probably remain the same physical size, so no size savings there. New lenses designed for lower quality could be made smaller, but then again, they could do the same on the EF mount.... note that with the exception of a couple of pancakes, they have not.

3) ergonomics. HUGE minus, you have lost balance and you no longer have the real estate for the advanced controls. Touchscreen helps to mitigate this.....

In the end, if what you really want is small size, you can’t compete with an M camera and a F6.3 zoom....
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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #150 on: March 19, 2018, 05:28:48 AM »

AvTvM

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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #151 on: March 19, 2018, 06:49:36 AM »
some people fail to understand that a new, short flange-distance mount is the only way to get BOTH:
* small gear: compact cameras + compact lenses in most frequently used focal length range; no this will not be the right set-up for people with large hands and large lenses. But preferably in almost all other situations. 
* any size larger gear - if and as wanted.  No problem at all to make camera bodies in L, XL, XXL and Texas-size

The only "compromise" involved only pertains to continued use of any existing EF lens ... in the form of a simple, compact and cheap mount adapter, with no impact at all on lens IQ. If so desired, that adapter could also be permanently attached to either a lens or to camera body.

Really don't see why this single argument (adapter for backwards compatibility) should lead to a decision that precludes taking size advantage of removed mirrorbox [and viewfinder prism].

Nobody asks for "extra-small" cameras ONLY. Some users want small, some want large/r) gear - depending on preferences and tasks/situation ... and many of us will get both: 1 small FF system and 1 large(r) one.

I really don't see why people wanting a "smaller, but high IQ and performance gear" solution should be relegated to APS-C systems only.

BillB

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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #152 on: March 19, 2018, 07:21:29 AM »
some people fail to understand that a new, short flange-distance mount is the only way to get BOTH:
* small gear: compact cameras + compact lenses in most frequently used focal length range; no this will not be the right set-up for people with large hands and large lenses. But preferably in almost all other situations. 
* any size larger gear - if and as wanted.  No problem at all to make camera bodies in L, XL, XXL and Texas-size

The only "compromise" involved only pertains to continued use of any existing EF lens ... in the form of a simple, compact and cheap mount adapter, with no impact at all on lens IQ. If so desired, that adapter could also be permanently attached to either a lens or to camera body.

Really don't see why this single argument (adapter for backwards compatibility) should lead to a decision that precludes taking size advantage of removed mirrorbox [and viewfinder prism].

Nobody asks for "extra-small" cameras ONLY. Some users want small, some want large/r) gear - depending on preferences and tasks/situation ... and many of us will get both: 1 small FF system and 1 large(r) one.

I really don't see why people wanting a "smaller, but high IQ and performance gear" solution should be relegated to APS-C systems only.

Well, clearly somebody is failing to understand something. 

Rocky

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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #153 on: March 19, 2018, 07:32:02 AM »
some people fail to understand that a new, short flange-distance mount is the only way to get BOTH:
* small gear: compact cameras + compact lenses in most frequently used focal length range; no this will not be the right set-up for people with large hands and large lenses. But preferably in almost all other situations. 
* any size larger gear - if and as wanted.  No problem at all to make camera bodies in L, XL, XXL and Texas-size

The only "compromise" involved only pertains to continued use of any existing EF lens ... in the form of a simple, compact and cheap mount adapter, with no impact at all on lens IQ. If so desired, that adapter could also be permanently attached to either a lens or to camera body.

Really don't see why this single argument (adapter for backwards compatibility) should lead to a decision that precludes taking size advantage of removed mirrorbox [and viewfinder prism].

Nobody asks for "extra-small" cameras ONLY. Some users want small, some want large/r) gear - depending on preferences and tasks/situation ... and many of us will get both: 1 small FF system and 1 large(r) one.

I really don't see why people wanting a "smaller, but high IQ and performance gear" solution should be relegated to APS-C systems only.
Right on. +10. The only problem is that Canon have to solve the issue of dark corner picture due to short flange and compact wide to normal focal length first. May be Canon should pay Leica royalty for the off-set micro lenses.  100 mm focal length and up will not have problem, regardless.

BillB

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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #154 on: March 19, 2018, 07:44:35 AM »
some people fail to understand that a new, short flange-distance mount is the only way to get BOTH:
* small gear: compact cameras + compact lenses in most frequently used focal length range; no this will not be the right set-up for people with large hands and large lenses. But preferably in almost all other situations. 
* any size larger gear - if and as wanted.  No problem at all to make camera bodies in L, XL, XXL and Texas-size

The only "compromise" involved only pertains to continued use of any existing EF lens ... in the form of a simple, compact and cheap mount adapter, with no impact at all on lens IQ. If so desired, that adapter could also be permanently attached to either a lens or to camera body.

Really don't see why this single argument (adapter for backwards compatibility) should lead to a decision that precludes taking size advantage of removed mirrorbox [and viewfinder prism].

Nobody asks for "extra-small" cameras ONLY. Some users want small, some want large/r) gear - depending on preferences and tasks/situation ... and many of us will get both: 1 small FF system and 1 large(r) one.

I really don't see why people wanting a "smaller, but high IQ and performance gear" solution should be relegated to APS-C systems only.
Right on. +10. The only problem is that Canon have to solve the issue of dark corner picture due to short flange and compact wide to normal focal length first. May be Canon should pay Leica royalty for the off-set micro lenses.  100 mm focal length and up will not have problem, regardless.

There is also the problem of convincing people to buy a mirrorless camera that requires adapters to use EF lenses when they can buy a DSLR that they can use without adapters.  Then there are the people with a Canon DSLR who will not add a mirrorless camera that requires an adapter to use the lenses that are compatible with the DSLR. 

neuroanatomist

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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #155 on: March 19, 2018, 08:04:50 AM »
There is also the problem of convincing people to buy a mirrorless camera that requires adapters to use EF lenses when they can buy a DSLR that they can use without adapters.  Then there are the people with a Canon DSLR who will not add a mirrorless camera that requires an adapter to use the lenses that are compatible with the DSLR.

^^This.

At issue is the target market.  For entry-level APS-C mirrorless, that market is new customers – a new mount is fine, with an adapter for current system owners.  But for FF mirrorless, the target market is current ILC owners.  For Sony, that means pulling customers away from Canon/Nikon.  But for Canon, the largest source of FF MILC buyers is current Canon dSLR owners.
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BillB

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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #156 on: March 19, 2018, 08:32:56 AM »
There is also the problem of convincing people to buy a mirrorless camera that requires adapters to use EF lenses when they can buy a DSLR that they can use without adapters.  Then there are the people with a Canon DSLR who will not add a mirrorless camera that requires an adapter to use the lenses that are compatible with the DSLR.

^^This.

At issue is the target market.  For entry-level APS-C mirrorless, that market is new customers – a new mount is fine, with an adapter for current system owners.  But for FF mirrorless, the target market is current ILC owners.  For Sony, that means pulling customers away from Canon/Nikon.  But for Canon, the largest source of FF MILC buyers is current Canon dSLR owners.

There could be a comparability issue between a new FF mirrorless mount and the aps-c M line.  An M camera will take an EF lens with an adapter, but it might be difficult to adapt lenses with the new FF mirrorless mount to an M camera

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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #156 on: March 19, 2018, 08:32:56 AM »

AvTvM

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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #157 on: March 19, 2018, 08:41:28 AM »
There is also the problem of convincing people to buy a mirrorless camera that requires adapters to use EF lenses when they can buy a DSLR that they can use without adapters.  Then there are the people with a Canon DSLR who will not add a mirrorless camera that requires an adapter to use the lenses that are compatible with the DSLR.

^^This.

At issue is the target market.  For entry-level APS-C mirrorless, that market is new customers – a new mount is fine, with an adapter for current system owners.  But for FF mirrorless, the target market is current ILC owners.  For Sony, that means pulling customers away from Canon/Nikon.  But for Canon, the largest source of FF MILC buyers is current Canon dSLR owners.

Sony is the best example. Their efforts to continue support of mirrorslapper A-lenses have not gotten them much. It would have been much smarter, had they just said: "end of A-mount, now!"and focused on selecting "really right" paramters for their mirrorless FF lens mount. 

Existing EF-lens owners refusing to use an adapter will have to live with their decision. Their problem, not Canon's. Canon should focus on developing, making and selling a state-of-the-art mirrorless product lineup. All they need to do is mirror their DSLR universe:
EF-M is the new EF-S
EF-X is the new EF
..
people wanting to use their old glass on new cameras will have to use an adapter. Meanwhile Canon will be selling new cameras and lenses in the millions ... for some years to come ... until computational imaging fully takes over.

neuroanatomist

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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #158 on: March 19, 2018, 08:44:14 AM »
There is also the problem of convincing people to buy a mirrorless camera that requires adapters to use EF lenses when they can buy a DSLR that they can use without adapters.  Then there are the people with a Canon DSLR who will not add a mirrorless camera that requires an adapter to use the lenses that are compatible with the DSLR.

^^This.

At issue is the target market.  For entry-level APS-C mirrorless, that market is new customers – a new mount is fine, with an adapter for current system owners.  But for FF mirrorless, the target market is current ILC owners.  For Sony, that means pulling customers away from Canon/Nikon.  But for Canon, the largest source of FF MILC buyers is current Canon dSLR owners.

There could be a comparability issue between a new FF mirrorless mount and the aps-c M line.  An M camera will take an EF lens with an adapter, but it might be difficult to adapt lenses with the new FF mirrorless mount to an M camera

Indeed, an issue I've raised previously.
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AvTvM

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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #159 on: March 19, 2018, 08:47:33 AM »
There is also the problem of convincing people to buy a mirrorless camera that requires adapters to use EF lenses when they can buy a DSLR that they can use without adapters.  Then there are the people with a Canon DSLR who will not add a mirrorless camera that requires an adapter to use the lenses that are compatible with the DSLR.

^^This.

At issue is the target market.  For entry-level APS-C mirrorless, that market is new customers – a new mount is fine, with an adapter for current system owners.  But for FF mirrorless, the target market is current ILC owners.  For Sony, that means pulling customers away from Canon/Nikon.  But for Canon, the largest source of FF MILC buyers is current Canon dSLR owners.

There could be a comparability issue between a new FF mirrorless mount and the aps-c M line.  An M camera will take an EF lens with an adapter, but it might be difficult to adapt lenses with the new FF mirrorless mount to an M camera

Indeed, an issue I've raised previously.

moot point. FF MILC lens mount should and likely will have a bit longer FFD than EF-M ... for a whole number of reasons. EOS-EF-M mount will then take EF-X lenses with a tiny adapter ring a few millimeters wide.

Rocky

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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #160 on: March 19, 2018, 08:48:14 AM »
There is also the problem of convincing people to buy a mirrorless camera that requires adapters to use EF lenses when they can buy a DSLR that they can use without adapters.  Then there are the people with a Canon DSLR who will not add a mirrorless camera that requires an adapter to use the lenses that are compatible with the DSLR.

^^This.

At issue is the target market.  For entry-level APS-C mirrorless, that market is new customers – a new mount is fine, with an adapter for current system owners.  But for FF mirrorless, the target market is current ILC owners.  For Sony, that means pulling customers away from Canon/Nikon.  But for Canon, the largest source of FF MILC buyers is current Canon dSLR owners.

There could be a comparability issue between a new FF mirrorless mount and the aps-c M line.  An M camera will take an EF lens with an adapter, but it might be difficult to adapt lenses with the new FF mirrorless mount to an M camera
If the flange disttance is about 29 mm, it will not be  a problem. I have been adapting the Leica lenses for my M.

neuroanatomist

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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #161 on: March 19, 2018, 08:51:51 AM »
Sony is the best example. 

The best example of you completely missing the point, true.


Existing EF-lens owners refusing to use an adapter will have to live with their decision. Their problem, not Canon's.

Except if no adapter is required to mount an EF lens on a Canon FF MILC.  I know it will come as a shock to you if Canon chooses to do something you don't think is a good idea…but it won't surprise anyone who lives in the real world.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #162 on: March 19, 2018, 08:54:09 AM »
There is also the problem of convincing people to buy a mirrorless camera that requires adapters to use EF lenses when they can buy a DSLR that they can use without adapters.  Then there are the people with a Canon DSLR who will not add a mirrorless camera that requires an adapter to use the lenses that are compatible with the DSLR.

^^This.

At issue is the target market.  For entry-level APS-C mirrorless, that market is new customers – a new mount is fine, with an adapter for current system owners.  But for FF mirrorless, the target market is current ILC owners.  For Sony, that means pulling customers away from Canon/Nikon.  But for Canon, the largest source of FF MILC buyers is current Canon dSLR owners.

There could be a comparability issue between a new FF mirrorless mount and the aps-c M line.  An M camera will take an EF lens with an adapter, but it might be difficult to adapt lenses with the new FF mirrorless mount to an M camera
If the flange disttance is about 29 mm, it will not be  a problem. I have been adapting the Leica lenses for my M.

So, Canon will design a new mount to save 15mm?   I doubt it…
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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #162 on: March 19, 2018, 08:54:09 AM »

AvTvM

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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #163 on: March 19, 2018, 09:05:53 AM »
29mm FFD is likely more than needed. 22-24 mm is probably right.

And yes, i would be surprised if Canon launches mirrorless FF with EF mount-nozzled cameras.

neuroanatomist

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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #164 on: March 19, 2018, 10:24:20 AM »
29mm FFD is likely more than needed. 22-24 mm is probably right.

So, a 4-6mm thick adapter to mount ‘EF-X’ lenses on the far more numerous EOS M cameras.  EdMika ergonomics, that’s a non-starter.
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Re: A Prototype Full Frame Mirrorless From Canon Exists [CR1]
« Reply #164 on: March 19, 2018, 10:24:20 AM »