June 22, 2018, 03:35:08 AM

Author Topic: Sony Executive: Expects Canon and Nikon full frame mirrorless by this year  (Read 10353 times)

privatebydesign

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I don’t understand what is stopping Canon from putting out an entry level FF mirrorless camera now and getting some feedback to guide later pro-Sumer offerings.

DIGIC, battery life, DPAF on a full frame sensor all had to be done first.

Based on the performance of the M50 I would say that the Digic processors are not quite there yet.

I doubt a full frame mirrorless would be powered by an LP-E12 .. there's alot that we don't know about how quick DIGIC 8 is.

and outside of 4K DPAF what performance problems is there with the M50?

Not really a major performance issue, but the crop factor is also a bit of a concern: not that it bothers me here at this level (the lack of dpaf is the real drawback) but on a full frame model, I'd definitely hope for no crop.

I'll be very interested to see what Canon include in a mirrorless full frame, I'm hoping they'll be able to match the features of the latest Sony's, focus peaking, zebras, silent shooting, Ibis, 120 fps video etc, along with the typical Canon pluses.

We don't know the full capability of Digic 8 just from the M50 (or at least I hope we don't!), guessing that Canon aren't running that anywhere near full capacity in their entry level mirrorless. It's also possible to run dual processors to carry out different tasks.

I highly agree, to fully compete with Sony and other mirrorless competitors, Canon have to at least match the features of the others including all the ones you mention.

The crop in 4K on the 5D4 was incredibly unpopular. I would expect them to at least match Sony here, and go for a switchable FF/APS-C crop 4K (or FF/APS-H). However, now Nikon have nice FF 4K on the D850, Canon's only competitor in that regard is not just mirrorless. Their next FF pro/semi-pro body needs to compete directly with these now, or they really will be regarded as slipping further behind their competition.

The codec... I think it now needs to match what Panasonic are doing with the GH5 - at least 10-bit 4:2:2 @ 400mbps.

And a lot of people will expect full sensor stabilization (IBIS) as all the direct mirrorless competition have it, and even some DSLR...

If they can do this, then with their traditional strengths (colour science, build quality/durability, etc.) and unique tech (DPAF) they will almost certainly have a winner.

I couldn't state more strongly that I feel this needs to be an EF mount camera -
-- If you compare the size/weight of Sony's FF mirrorless lenses to even Canon's current EF mount of equivalent FL/aperture, there really is no difference, in fact often Canon's current lenses are lighter. To change a few mm on the flange distance and gain zero benefit to overall system size/weight would be madness when they have the best range of lenses in the industry.
--What they absolutely could do is gradually design a range of EF lenses with mirrorless in mind (e.g. f/1.8 aperture, smaller, lighter, still weather sealed, a little like Nikon's 1.8 prime range, or Sony's 55 f/1.8 ).
--What they could also do in a mirrorless body is use the little extra flange to sensor distance to implement a killer feature or two that the competitions short depth doesn't allow - e.g., built-in ND, etc.

Canon used to be the industry trailblazer for innovation, they have the experience, resources and patents to be so again, wouldn't it be nice to see that spirit return?
That depends on who you talk to and who's opinions you are interested in.

Amongst photographers checking spec sheets, internet experts, and the click bait crowd it was a pretty unpopular thing.

On the other hand if you listen to the opinion of actual videographers who are integrating 5D MkIV video with a C-00 then the, effective, S35 video format works really well and blends seamlessly, it is no random thing that the 5D MkIV got C-Log as a post release feature but didn't get an uncropped 4K. Canon were told if they wanted to sell 5D MkIV's as video cameras to serious video folks then it had to have C-Log. They didn't build equip and staff the Canon Cinema facility in Burbank for the fun of it...
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

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ashmadux

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After the disappointment of the 6D II, I'll take a wait and see attitude. Along with FF mirrorless, I'd like to see in-camera image stabilization, two memory card slots, and an improved HDR on par with the Sony A7III. If Canon can do that, then I'm in.

I always wonder what everyone has to say against the 6D except the echoing "no 4K" and "miserable dynamic range"...
4K is obviously true, there is none. The dynamic range may be obvious when you lift shadows at 100 ISO by 4+ Stops... but who does that? I would say one rarely does that. On top there is bracketing when you want that pristine HDR effect.
The 6D mark II is an allrounder, and a very good one. One should focus more on the core tasks of a camera than all these bells and whistles that are put into a body with 2nd class handling, compared to Canon cameras bad reliability as soon as some rain drops or the temperature in the sun is exceeding 25°C..., bad battery life or as with Sony with an experimental menu experience on top.

I highly doubt that most of those who declare the 6d mk II a fail have
1.) ever had one in their hands and apart of it have USED one...
2.) ever had one of their "favorite" XY camera manufacturers camera in their hands and are telling tales from spec sheets
3.) a well established idea of what is generally important in photography. Yes, a good tool is always desirable, I guess pretty much any camera is a good tool by that means. They seem to be more in the "techie"-department than into photography, that doesn't state they are not into photography. Else, as I said... the 6D mark II's DR is better than it is stated in a lot of videos that jumped onto the boo-train.


While it's great to look for the silver linings and see the forest for the trees in most cases, NOT in this one.  The 6d is the perfect 'you dont need more than this' camera. Canon intentionally made a hobbled body that makes the 5d4 truly look like the next level. Yes, it will take pictures just fine, but it would be crazy not to factor in the actual worse performance than the previous sensor. The 6D1's horrifying Af module considered, the 6D2 is a step up, but WOW all the Af points stuffed in the middle. An absolute headache for vertical shooting, especially portraits.

I REALLY wanted a 6d2 - the full slippy screen is so desirable to me at this point that I will take some compromises to get it- but Canons omissions are unusually brutal to keep the products segmented. It's really making a fool of the consumer, but obviously feature wise, the consumer is canon's second worry.

And now the sony A73 - simply embarrasses the 6d2. The body is simply the ultimate example of canons long time methodology: "You can do better (how about the next step up?)". Pathetic.

So yes, it will take pictures just fine- but value for money? LOL oh hell's no.
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BillB

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I’d love to see a FF mirrorless that used EF lenses natively. I’m over due for a new body and I’m going to Japan again in 3 years. I just hope they make it a serious competitor.

I think eventually you'll get just this - I think the next 1DX will likely be a FF mirrorless (or possibly a hybrid OVF/EVF) but not until 2021 I'd guess.

Before that you'll see a new semi-pro FF body from camera, and that will use the EF-M mount or some variant of it. Why? Canon could have made the EF-M mount smaller for APS-C and made even more compact/cheaper lenses. But they stuck to the size they did because that is the minimum size needed for a full-frame lens.  Why do that if you're not going to use the mount for that?

Also, there's going to be a lot of people in the future wanting to upgrade from EF-M to full frame, and unlike EF-S to EF there's no reason the existing EF-M lenses couldn't be used (albeit in crop) on FF cameras.

Jolyon

I totally agree it will most likely be EF-M mount with adaptor included for a first launch.  Existing EF-M lenses will be able to be used in crop mode, and newer chipped EF-M mount lenses will be developed for FF.  Mirrorless is gaining share over DSLR due to size and weight i.e. portability.  The same way phones have killed the PS market due to portability.  Canon will not abandon those two important factors I feel.  Those who want to use heavy large EF lenses can via an adaptor.  Having a Metabones adaptor didn't stop a ton of people from using EF lenses on Sony mirrorless did it?  For those that don't want an adaptor option, there is the Cyanoacrylate kit option.  Hurts resale value though.   ;D

Canon may eventually come up with a FF mirrorless with an EF-M mount that is small and light, but I don't think it will be the first Canon FF mirrorless.  My guess is that the first FF mirrorless will be positioned above the 6DII, with an EF mount, articulated screen and a derivative of the 5DIV sensor.  More or less what the DR fanatics wanted the 6DII to be, but mirrorless.  Doubt that it will have a second card slot though, and I have no idea about 4K.

Starting with the ES-M mount would mean coming up with new lenses and convincing people that they want to go upmarket from the current aps-c M cameras, so I don't think they will start there.  I don't think that they will start at the top of the food chain either, although a 5DSRII might be a possibility I guess.

neuroanatomist

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Canon intentionally made a hobbled body that makes the 5d4 truly look like the next level.

So, because people want a 5DIV for a 6DII price, or a 1D X II for a 4000D price, Canon is obliged to give it to them? 

You don’t like the 6DII, don’t buy one.  I can assure you that Canon doesn’t care about what you do.
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Talys

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Mirrorless is gaining share over DSLR due to size and weight i.e. portability. 

People may buy mirrorless because of the promise of smaller size and weight, but that promise is a lie, when it comes to the reality of putting professional lenses onto full frame bodies. 

Excluding pancakes, when it comes to pro fixed aperture zooms and primes, whatever size, weight, and bulk were saved on the flange on the body are gained right back in exactly the same size on every single lens.  However small the throat diameter, is gained right back within a centimeter, making it very uncomfortable for the fingers, and the first lens element and the size of the barrel of the lens is exactly the same size.

And if you actually want to use that camera to shoot photos -- instead of just own it as a trophy -- you'll also need to grip it, at which point it becomes nearly the same size and weight as a pro DSLR.

A Sony A7R3 + Grip + 70-200/2.8 OSS or 24-70/2.8 or 100-400 is practically identical in weight and size to a 5D4 + 70-200/2.8 IS or 24-70L2.8 II or 100-400LII.

But you could just put on a small kit lens onto that A7R3, right?  Sure you can, but then why did you waste $3,000 on the body?  Anyone who does that is just looking for bragging rights to owning an expensive camera, and should have bought an a6500.

scyrene

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The same way phones have killed the PS market due to portability.

I don't think you can say phones killed the point-and-shoot market *because* of portability. It's more that once every phone had a camera, there was much less reason to buy/carry a dedicated camera in addition to a phone, as most people carry a phone on them most of the time. The smallest P&S cameras aren't really less portable than modern smartphones, which have got larger over the past few years - but why carry two devices when one does the job most of the time?

Those who want to use heavy large EF lenses can via an adaptor.  Having a Metabones adaptor didn't stop a ton of people from using EF lenses on Sony mirrorless did it?  For those that don't want an adaptor option, there is the Cyanoacrylate kit option.  Hurts resale value though.   ;D

1. An important part of the market using bigger lenses is pros and enthusiasts, who are surely more likely to care about possible degradation of image quality/AF performance from an adaptor.
2. We don't know how many people use Sony with an adaptor and Canon lenses, but I'd be willing to bet it's a relatively tiny number compared to those using high-end native EF glass. Just because some people are willing to compromise doesn't mean the whole market wants to go that way.

I think you're labouring under the common misconception that mirrorless must equal small. There's room in the market for small AND larger options - we've seen this discussed thoroughly elsewhere on these forums.
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Bekippe

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Quote
I REALLY wanted a 6d2 - the full slippy screen is so desirable to me at this point that I will take some compromises to get it- but Canons omissions are unusually brutal to keep the products segmented. It's really making a fool of the consumer, but obviously feature wise, the consumer is canon's second worry.

The fully articulated screen is worth gold in my opinion. I've gotten seriously spoiled by them already, and there is no way I could use a camera without one at this point. As for "feature omission," I don't miss anything with the 6DII, and I certainly don't care about video at all. It is a solid camera that (to quote another wildly successful company) "Just Works." Far from "you don't need more than this," it is exactly what I hoped it would be: easy to use, with great results straight from the camera.
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dak723

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Mirrorless is gaining share over DSLR due to size and weight i.e. portability. 

Yes, that is why people are buying Micro 4/3rds and APS-C mirrorless cameras.  FF sees little or no benefit being mirrorless.

Mt Spokane Photography

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Why couldn't Canon just put forth a mirrorless camera DSLR-like body with features of mirrorless? I think most people like the ergonomics of a DSLR, especially with larger lenses. Plus they could use EF mount and same battery.

This is Canon's quandry.  Will a compact mirrorless with a entirely new line of lenses plus EF via their alreadt patented adapter sell?  Many professionals like the larger bodies and CF cards, while a large number of enthusiasts want the smaller form factor.  If a new lens line comes out, I will not be interested.

Don Haines

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Why couldn't Canon just put forth a mirrorless camera DSLR-like body with features of mirrorless? I think most people like the ergonomics of a DSLR, especially with larger lenses. Plus they could use EF mount and same battery.

This is Canon's quandry.  Will a compact mirrorless with a entirely new line of lenses plus EF via their alreadt patented adapter sell?  Many professionals like the larger bodies and CF cards, while a large number of enthusiasts want the smaller form factor.  If a new lens line comes out, I will not be interested.

I don’t think it is much of a quandary..... if you want small, go M series, if you want large, with the ergonomics and controls to match, go FF with an EF mount...

It’s the Rebels that I wonder about..... do they get squeezed out?
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Don Haines

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Quote
I REALLY wanted a 6d2 - the full slippy screen is so desirable to me at this point that I will take some compromises to get it- but Canons omissions are unusually brutal to keep the products segmented. It's really making a fool of the consumer, but obviously feature wise, the consumer is canon's second worry.

The fully articulated screen is worth gold in my opinion. I've gotten seriously spoiled by them already, and there is no way I could use a camera without one at this point. As for "feature omission," I don't miss anything with the 6DII, and I certainly don't care about video at all. It is a solid camera that (to quote another wildly successful company) "Just Works." Far from "you don't need more than this," it is exactly what I hoped it would be: easy to use, with great results straight from the camera.

I’m surprised at how good the 6D2 video is.... yes, it is not 4K, but it works very very well. It’s now hard for me to go back to shooting video on one of the other cameras without that touchscreen interface.....
The best camera is the one in your hands

AvTvM

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You don’t like the 6DII, don’t buy one.  I can assure you that Canon doesn’t care about what you do.

quite to the opposite. Canon does care when their products are *rightfully* criticized publicly  ... like the sub-par 6D II (both in terms of 2018 standards as well as in terms of price asked for it!) ... and don't sell very well ...

and they care even more when people not only criticize but refuse to buy Canon products ... as I did for the past 2+ years ... no purchase since 5D III and 24-70 II ...   

Isaacheus

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Canon intentionally made a hobbled body that makes the 5d4 truly look like the next level.

So, because people want a 5DIV for a 6DII price, or a 1D X II for a 4000D price, Canon is obliged to give it to them? 

You don’t like the 6DII, don’t buy one.  I can assure you that Canon doesn’t care about what you do.

I kinda saw it more as a hoping for something with better performance at base iso than the sl2 at $500 - the appeal of the original 6d to me was the comparable iq of that generations 5d model for cheaper,  just without a number of the extra features like dual slots, pro af etc



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unfocused

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You don’t like the 6DII, don’t buy one.  I can assure you that Canon doesn’t care about what you do.

quite to the opposite. Canon does care when their products are *rightfully* criticized publicly  ... like the sub-par 6D II (both in terms of 2018 standards as well as in terms of price asked for it!) ... and don't sell very well ...

and they care even more when people not only criticize but refuse to buy Canon products ... as I did for the past 2+ years ... no purchase since 5D III and 24-70 II ...

You are confused. Canon (and every other company) cares about their aggregate customer base. So, yeah, Canon would care if a substantial percentage of their customers followed your lead. However, unfortunately for you, that is not the case. You are an outlier and companies really can't afford to worry about outliers.

That one disgruntled customer hasn't purchased a Canon product for more than two years is dwarfed by the fact that 14 Canons currently sit on Amazon's list of their 20 top selling DSLRs. My purchases alone have more than offset your non-purchases.

You also seem to ignore or refuse to understand the incremental costs that businesses must weigh when pursuing customers. There comes a point when a customer becomes too expensive to keep. Based on the very specific personalized demands that you have articulated in the past, I doubt that a cost-benefit analysis from Canon would work in your favor.

woodman411

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And now the sony A73 - simply embarrasses the 6d2. The body is simply the ultimate example of canons long time methodology: "You can do better (how about the next step up?)". Pathetic.

So yes, it will take pictures just fine- but value for money? LOL oh hell's no.

To be fair to Canon, within 6 months of USA launch, during the Black Friday period, the 6d2's price went down to $1300 from authorized USA dealers. It's now $1379 gray market. At $1999, I can understand the value question, but at $1300's, it still feels like one of the best full-frame values to me despite its limitations. And anytime Sony is compared to for value, one cannot ignore the other half of the camera: lenses. Factor in the value of the lens eco-system with the body, and the 6d2 looks even better.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 10:34:23 PM by woodman411 »

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