July 17, 2018, 12:21:27 AM

Author Topic: Will it be worth waiting for?  (Read 7417 times)

Talys

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2018, 02:30:01 PM »
My main interest is indeed nature and bird photography. Sometimes sports or generally speaking 'human action'. I sold my 7D II a year ago because the results after a 2 week Scotland trip were downright disappointing. The AF was so unreliable and often (not always) produced unsharp images when the camera was telling me everything is fine and focused.

You are right with the lenses. Canon's lens portfolio is unmatched (far from perfect) but Nikon is also not bad. Most reviews agree that the 200-500 IQ is better than the Tamron/Sigma competition. The 300mm f4 PF looks like a very nice lens and according to Nikon rumors, they are developing more PF lenses.

I still haven't decided yet, but I will borrow a D500 (+200-500 +300) for a 3-days trip this spring and try it out.

You're going to hate a Sony, so don't even go there :)

The Nikon D500 is a fine camera.  I actually prefer the D850, though, to be honest, despite the reach of the D500.  This is because despite fewer pixels at distance, if you are using a 200-500, you will usually end up with higher ISO's in order to accommodate faster shutter speeds at f/5.6 or slower. 

The reality is that once you get to even ISO 640-800, never mind 1000+, the photos after post taken from the same spot on D850 will be superior, in my opinion.  I didn't always believe this; I used to prefer crop cameras too, but as I went from predominantly bird portraits on a tripod to birds in flight handheld or with a monopod, my opinion changed dramatically.

On the Canon end, I would also now choose a 6DII or 5DIV over a 7D series, for the same reason: I don't own the glass to let me shoot at ISO 100-400 at the shutter speeds that I want. 

The other thing I would keep in mind is that more megapixels makes a surprisingly little difference as to how far you can crop.  I mean, you CAN crop something very deeply, but it won't ever turn out to be a great picture.  All the really awesome pictures are still ones that fill up a quarter or more of the frame, whether it's 25 megapixels or 50 megapixels.

And finally, I would say that after trying many, many cameras, I always go back to continuous center point autofocus and manually tracking the subject.  It is EXTREMELY reliable, and is dependent only on my ability to track the subject.  In comparison, all of the smart autofocus systems like Canon iTTR or Nikon 3D or Sony lock-on AF gives me a mixed bag of the camera saying that the subject is in focus... but it's soft in post.

Frankly, the thing that changed my life the most in bird in flight photography was the Canon 100-400LII.  Given the choice between a 5DMkIV + Sigma 150-600 or a 6DII + Canon 100-400LII (prioritizing where you spend the money), I would choose the latter every time. 

It's the finest zoom lens I've ever used, and certainly the nicest handheld telephoto one.  After using it, the 200-500 Nikon feels decidedly toy-like, though obviously, the 200-500 has a very nice reach, and is significantly cheaper as well.

Good luck on your trip and let us know how the D500 turns out!

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2018, 02:30:01 PM »

geonix

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2018, 04:53:36 PM »


Did you turn off IS for moving subjects? Have you AFMA your lenses for the 7D II? Were the unsharp images with your Tamron 100-600? If so, how did that lens compare to your Canon 300 f/4 and 1.4x III TC? Did you AFMA the Canon 300mm / TC combination for the 7D II? What are you using now since you sold the 7D II?

If your AF is working  that way despite Micro AF adjustment of the lens I would send the camera in. My 7D II has no such issues. But it took me some time to find the right AF settings fitting my style. Since I found them 90% (or more) of my BIF shots  (medium to large birds flying more or less straight) are pin sharp. Haven't really tried song-birds or any other smaller more eratically flying subjects yet.

My main interest is indeed nature and bird photography. Sometimes sports or generally speaking 'human action'. I sold my 7D II a year ago because the results after a 2 week Scotland trip were downright disappointing. The AF was so unreliable and often (not always) produced unsharp images when the camera was telling me everything is fine and focused.

90% is a pretty darn good keeper rate. Most would be very happy eith that. I know I would be.


I wouldn't make that 90% statement again today. True, at first I was quite happy wit the 7D II. In 2015 up to early 2017. First I used a Tamron 150-600, with AF mirco adjustment I really got most BIF shots (that was mostly bigger birds like geese, herons, ducks, raptors) sharp. But that was only true for lower ISO shots (ISO 100-640).  I sold the Tamron and (over the past years) got a 100-400 IS II and a 400mm f4 DO IS II. All were AF adjusted to the 7D II. But since 2017 the keeper rate dropped significantly. The camera didn't fall to the ground and my technique didn't change either. What caused this, I don't know. At a camera store and Canon service they tested it and found it to be 'as good as usual'. But after that trip last year I've had enough, at some pretty unique photo opportunities I couldn't get satisfying results. I sold it to the camera store which had checked it earlier.

Since than I use an 80D as crop body and in single point AF servo it works pretty well, although I didn't shoot BIFs a lot since then. With a 5D IV I also got very good results.  What I miss though is the speed (10fps) on a crop body. Before the 7DII I didn't care about fps much. But with very fast action, like an osprey diving to catch a fish or a peregrine manoeuvering in front of a seabird colony, 10fps are much better than 6-7 fps (provided they are sharp).

Don Haines

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2018, 05:48:36 PM »
Hello all.

What do you think? Will the 7D III (or whatever it will be named) be worth waiting for or not? I'm asking myself this question since Canon has proven lately again, that it has no scruples to offer new cameras that are technologically outperformed by the competition models that are on the market for years now.

Considering the most likely improvements from the current 7D II to the 7D III:
- slightly more MP
- slightly more fps (maybe 11-12 fps??)
- touchscreen

How big are the chances that something more revolutionary will find its way into the 7D III?
- CFast slot
- Buffer like or better than the D500
- fully articulated touch-screen (80D like)

Especially the AF, which has always caused discussions on the 7DII. How likely could the 7DIII get an all new AF sensor that improves AF tracking and speed with more than 64 focal points? How likely will it match or exceed the D500 AF performance?

 At the time, I'm inclined to be pessimistic about it and switch to a D500. If I hadn't such a wonderful Canon tele prime lens that I would miss at Nikons.

Just my guesses here... no inside info or even wise insight :)

I would guess 24Mpixels....
The frame rate stays the same, but with UHS-2 SD card the buffer becomes infinite...
The touchscreen and user interface is a given.....
I'd put 50/50 odds on an articulating screen....

High ISO may not improve, but look for even better noise characteristics and as a result, a small bump in DR

I would expect 4K video....

I would expect the AF to stay the same.... perhaps a few more points, but essentially the same.... It is at almost 1DX2 levels now, not much more space to grow....

I expect to see metering on the AF point....

There really isn't that much more to improve on..... it is a darn fine camera already. I would expect that most 7D2 owners would skip over this one, but for anyone upgrading from a lower model, it will be compelling...
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reef58

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2018, 06:33:19 PM »
... they will make a camera that ticks the least amount of boxes to out sell the competition...”

I immediately dismiss anyone who says this in reference to the 7D series, which has always been groundbreaking and industry leading. Canon has never scrimped on the 7D. At the time of introduction the original 7D was far superior to anything the competition offered. So much so that Nikon didn’t even bother trying to compete. The 7D II had the best feature set of any crop frame camera at the time and was essentially a mini 1Dx. Except for sensor performance at base ISO, it still competes very well against the D500. At higher ISOs, where most people use these cameras the performance is nearly identical.

When the 7D III is finally introduced it will likely be evolutionary rather than revolutionary simply because there isn’t that much left to improve - on chip ADC and Canon’s latest autofocus improvements, coupled with the obvious features like 4K video and full touch screen.

Well,  you may dismiss it, but it is still what I think will happen. It does not mean it will be worse than the D500, just a tad better (in a few key areas) to make it the better choice. I don't think they will go all in, but do just enough to beat the competition, as stated in my earlier post. Canon my have done things a bit different when the 7D was launched (as they did with the 5DII, thrashing the competition), but lately they have not done this, and I don't think they will change strategy with the 7DIII.

What is all in?  What do you expect to be missing that is a realistic add?

I am quite sure that every feature Canon decides to add to the 7DIII will be very functional and working properly. Canon is very good at this. With all in I mean something like Sony did with the A7III. Going head to head with the 6DII, but feature wise it is more of a competition to the 5DIV. At least on paper. I do think Canon is more "honest" in their specs than Sony. What you see is what you get, usually. Sony have impressive specs, but does not always stack up in real world use. It seems like the two latest Nikons, D500 and D850 both delivers in real world, and spec wise.
So, I will stand by my prediction, that Canon will just add enough features and specs to the 7DIII, and not over do it by any means.

You still didn't answer which feature(s) you think Canon may exclude.  I am curious.

Talys

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2018, 06:57:02 PM »
You still didn't answer which feature(s) you think Canon may exclude.  I am curious.

I'll play this game :D

I think the 7D3...

- Will have a little less DR than some other cameras
- Will have a competitive FPS gripless, but will not be faster FPS with grip
- May not have fully articulating screen (it might have a flip down a la Sony/Nikon, to accomodate side buttons)
- May not get Pupil AF, even in live view
- May not have scaled 4k (ie perhaps it is center crop)
- Will not get USB-C
- Will not get any smaller
- CFast or UHS-II -- I don't know

Just my guess!!

unfocused

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2018, 10:16:46 PM »
...So, I will stand by my prediction, that Canon will just add enough features and specs to the 7DIII, and not over do it by any means.

You still didn't answer which feature(s) you think Canon may exclude.  I am curious.

Translation: He doesn't want to be confused by facts and he doesn't want to have to defend his statements. Therefore, he makes a prediction that is completely unquantifiable. No matter what Canon includes in the 7DIII he can claim they added "just enough features and specs" and did not "over do it."

Pitbullo

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2018, 12:12:09 AM »
...So, I will stand by my prediction, that Canon will just add enough features and specs to the 7DIII, and not over do it by any means.

You still didn't answer which feature(s) you think Canon may exclude.  I am curious.

Translation: He doesn't want to be confused by facts and he doesn't want to have to defend his statements. Therefore, he makes a prediction that is completely unquantifiable. No matter what Canon includes in the 7DIII he can claim they added "just enough features and specs" and did not "over do it."

Why so rude? It could be that I live in a different part of the world making me wanna sleep when others are awake.. :)
I don’t think Canon will put in unlimited buffer, like the D500 (with a proper card). I do think it will have 4K with decent codec and bit rate, but nothing over the top, so it won’t compete with the higher end cameras. SD will be UHS-I still. No back lighted buttons or tilty screen. We might see a new feature from Canon, automatic AF tune. Would be nice.
As said before, I don’t think it will be a bad camera, just that the marketing guys and economy guys have more to say about features to include than the engineers. Canon is in it for the money, not giving away features for free. A few specs to give people GAS, and state competitive with the competition, and then as little as possible to save money.
They will sell loads of them.

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2018, 12:12:09 AM »

Talys

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2018, 12:44:49 AM »
...So, I will stand by my prediction, that Canon will just add enough features and specs to the 7DIII, and not over do it by any means.

You still didn't answer which feature(s) you think Canon may exclude.  I am curious.

Translation: He doesn't want to be confused by facts and he doesn't want to have to defend his statements. Therefore, he makes a prediction that is completely unquantifiable. No matter what Canon includes in the 7DIII he can claim they added "just enough features and specs" and did not "over do it."

Why so rude? It could be that I live in a different part of the world making me wanna sleep when others are awake.. :)
I don’t think Canon will put in unlimited buffer, like the D500 (with a proper card). I do think it will have 4K with decent codec and bit rate, but nothing over the top, so it won’t compete with the higher end cameras. SD will be UHS-I still. No back lighted buttons or tilty screen. We might see a new feature from Canon, automatic AF tune. Would be nice.
As said before, I don’t think it will be a bad camera, just that the marketing guys and economy guys have more to say about features to include than the engineers. Canon is in it for the money, not giving away features for free. A few specs to give people GAS, and state competitive with the competition, and then as little as possible to save money.
They will sell loads of them.

I think there will be a tilting screen of some kind, and I believe that with CRAW, the buffer should be effectively never-ending.  I mean, 100 pictures is effectively forever.

I do not believe cost is an issue in the flagship cameras; features are included or excluded for other reasons.

I'm not sure what you mean by over the top 4k.  The real test to 4k isn't how awesome the video quality is, but how easy it is to use -- which is to say, whether it is usable at all or just a feature to plunk on a spec sheet.  I suspect the 7DMk3 will better than the M50, for example, and will have DPAF in 4k.  But really, this should not be a camera you're buying for 4k video 8)

Like I said earlier, I really don't know about storage options, but if I had to guess, I'd surmise it would be something more than UHS-1.  I would prefer a UHS-1/2 in 1 slot, like Sony does, rather than CFast+SD, just for cost reasons.  A lot of us just won't need a super fast card and would just as soon have slots for 2 cheap storage cards.

greger

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2018, 03:03:27 AM »
If the 7Diii isn’t an upgrade with features I want, like a fully articulating screen then I’ll chuck my cf cards and buy a 90D I think that camera will take quite a few sales away from the 7Diii if Canon doesn’t up their game this time.
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reef58

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2018, 07:36:42 AM »
We live in good times when we are concerned the omissions from a camera will be card format, and 4k format.  Before you know it there will be hand wringing over what kind of plastic shell is used.  I think the bottom line for the 7d3 will be improvement is high ISO performance, tweaking the auto focus to make it more accurate, and probably adding 4k.  They will probably add a tilt screen of some description.  I guess we shall see.

haggie

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2018, 08:17:09 AM »
The 7D Mk III is a cropped action camera. That means I have requirements for 2 specific areas.

First of all, images must have good IQ. But “IQ” is a broad subject, and can be made more specific in this context of action photography.
In action photography the possibilities to influence the light are quite limited or even impossible. Therefore an important aspect of IQ is that there must be ‘room’ to compensate for sub-optimal shooting conditions. This means high Dynamic Range and little Noise. Preferably from 100 to at least 2000 ISO.
Then the initial quality of the images as they come out of the camera allows for good final results after post-processing. Therefore considerably improving these properties (DR and Noise) in the 7D Mk III are hard requirements for me.

Also “richness of detail” is important.
“Richness of detail” is the result of many properties of the camera’s sensor, but also of some other features of the camera and also of the lens used. Talking about individual properties (like pixel size, resolution) does not do justice to the complex interaction with other properties and the science (optics, electronics) involved.
In fact, this aspect can only be judged fully when the actual camera is there.

Secondly, I want plenty of keepers.
The primary requirement to be a ‘keeper’ is that the image is sharp. In the context of an action camera this means that the AF system must be as responsive as feasible (which includes taking into account constraints like size, cost and many other implementation details of the camera) to allow good tracking, even in suboptimal conditions.
This requires swift, effective and configurable firmware. It is important to acknowledge that this all starts with the properties of the individual AF-points on the AF-sensor.


Most other features of an action camera are in support of the photographer at several stages of photography.
For instance, they assist in shooting more done user friendly, faster change of settings, manage your camera more easily, shoot during a longer period, etc.. Such features can be crucial in specific situations, but I regard many of them as ‘nice to have’ as opposed to the essential properties I just mentioned.


Many cropped action photographers chose the cropped format for good reasons; not just money as is sometimes stated.
As a Canon user I also want access to a cropped action camera with the best what is doable and feasible in the areas that I just mentioned. And I am not the only one, as shown by posts of this thread and other threads too.

Personally I hope that Canon will be able (willing?) to let the 7D Mk III have at least the DR and Noise levels of the D500.
Mind you, wanting the 7D Mk III to be at least on par in AF and in IQ with an over-2-years-old design from the competition (the D500 is already 2 years old now!) cannot too much to ask, can it?
I think it is needless to say that for many interested people, the yardstick to judge the 7D Mk III will be the D500.

Recent impressions, also on this forum and even in this thread, seemed to lower the expectations for the 7D Mk III. In particular, areas like DR and Noise are mentioned then.
That seems strange because that is exactly where the 7D Mk II is lagging the competition.
Perhaps that is not a very good sign.
But one thing is certain: the future will reveal all …………….   :)


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Talys

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2018, 10:54:24 AM »
In action photography the possibilities to influence the light are quite limited or even impossible. Therefore an important aspect of IQ is that there must be ‘room’ to compensate for sub-optimal shooting conditions. This means high Dynamic Range and little Noise. Preferably from 100 to at least 2000 ISO.

I completely agree with you, but I have been convinced that this is impossible with current technology.

No crop camera exists that gives us good ISO performance AND high megapixels.  It looks like our choices are either 25+ megapixels with relatively poor signal to noise curves, or excellent SNR curves with below 20 megapixels at APSC.

To put it into perspective, the Sony A7R3 crop mode gives 18 megapixel APSC.

unfocused

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2018, 12:59:15 PM »
...Recent impressions, also on this forum and even in this thread, seemed to lower the expectations for the 7D Mk III. In particular, areas like DR and Noise are mentioned then.

That seems strange because that is exactly where the 7D Mk II is lagging the competition...

Except that "lagging the competition" is a very subjective term. If you look at DXO Mark's testing (and yes, I am very much aware that many of this forum dismiss DXO as being skewed against Canon), the D500 and 7D II are nearly identical on signal to noise ratio. The Nikon D500 does seem to have about a stop better Dynamic Range. Is that one stop significant? Yes, but it is not in the realm of game changing that many seem to believe. And, as one who shoots a lot of sports, if I have to choose, noise is far more important to me than dynamic range.

I think Talys is absolutely correct:
...I have been convinced that this is impossible with current technology.

No crop camera exists that gives us good ISO performance AND high megapixels...

Do I want and expect improvements from the 7DIII? Absolutely. I certainly hope it will set some new standards. But, I try to match that with reality and the reality is that, despite all the hand-wringing, the D500 simply isn't much better than the 7DII.

 

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2018, 12:59:15 PM »

Aussie shooter

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2018, 06:18:19 AM »
Again. The 7d111 pops up . Fair enough too. It really is the camera we are waiting for atm. My thoughts remain the same on MP in that it will probably get a 24 mp sensor(whether the current one from the 80d or a brand new one I don't know but........I think it will get dual digic 8 processors. That would give a vast(relatively speaking) improvement in both sensor performance and autofocus ability as well as allowing for a slight fps bump. I think it will be a worthwhile upgrade.
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haggie

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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2018, 07:16:27 AM »

... seem to have about a stop better Dynamic Range. Is that one stop significant?


I wonder why you chose to describe the charts at DXO Mark in these words. For Dynamic Range the graphs show the following:
     at 100 ISO:  D500 almost 2 stops better DR
     at 200 ISO:  D500 almost 1,5 stops better DR
     at 400 ISO:  D500 1.5 stops better DR
     at 800 ISO:  D500 almost 1,5 stops better DR
     at 1600 ISO:  D500 1 stops better DR
     above 3200 ISO:  D500 almost 1 stop better DR
That is quite a bit different from “about a stop better” as you described it.
And I can say from experience with both the D500 and the 7D Mk II that this is a big difference in post-processing. Especially if conditions were not perfect.

I have read where some that say that a good photographer would not need this. Well, more often than not the shooting conditions can not be influenced by the photographer in action photography. Then even just 1 stop better DR can make a noticeable difference in post.




... noise is far more important to me than dynamic range.


You are right that Noise is important also. That is why I mentioned it in my post.  :)
But looking at the graphs that represent Noise (SNR 18%) at DXO Mark, the D500 is better in that area also. From 800 ISO upwards they are identical, but below that the D500 is better. Remember here that a mere 3 dB less is 50% less (!) Noise.
So in numbers along the axis it may appear to be a small difference, in the images itself it is not.




... the D500 simply isn't much better than the 7DII.


Based on the numbers I do not agree with your conclusion. The actual values for DR and Noise show that the D500 is quite a bit better than the 7D Mk II.

Based on subjective comparing images from the D500 and the 7D Mk II (and also the D80) that were taken at the same moment, the D500 proves to have (much) more DR and (some) less Noise than the 7D Mk II in Lightroom. That seems to confirm these numbers. And that is not just my experience as shown by other threads on this forum and elsewhere too.




..., despite all the hand-wringing, ...


Was that really necessary?     ???
What I write here is not treason to Canon or an attack on the way of life or photography of any Canon user.
To avoid being covered in verbal cow dung by certain members of this forum I feel I must emphasize that this reply is not to bash Canon or to imply that Canon is doomed or to suggest that the 7D Mk II is crap. None of that is applicable. And for CanonFanBoy, I have no wish to switch to Nikon at this moment.

To be absolutely clear, I do not claim that the D500 is the perfect cropped action camera. But the D500 undeniably is better in DR and Noise than the 7D Mk II.
Then it seems peculiar not to acknowlwdge this as an area where Canon can make a considerable improvement in the next 7D Mk III.


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Re: Will it be worth waiting for?
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2018, 07:16:27 AM »