July 20, 2018, 10:51:41 AM

Author Topic: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !  (Read 19103 times)

dak723

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2018, 11:02:09 PM »
I am still here because Canon has treated me very well for many years. Canon has the best glass. Canon has the best user experience. Canon has a wide range of compatible camera bodies. I use a SL1 as backup when traveling.
My point is that I am truly begging Canon to accelerate the release of a FF EOS.
I’m not “flaming” and I have not jumped ship.
Merely a disappointed loyalist who does examine alternatives.

Examining alternatives is definitely a good thing.  Choosing the best camera for you is also a good thing.  The reason for my earlier reply was simply meant to say:  Beware of the Sony hype.  I was suckered by it and luckily could return the two Sony's  I bought to replace my Canon 6D.  But if you don't think it is hype and your experience tells you that the Sony is way ahead of any Canon offering, you should switch.  Since all the rumors seem to be pointing to a Canon FF mirrorless announcement by the end of the year, I guess it is up to you to decide whether the wait is worth it or not.

For those who seem to be upset anytime someone defends Canon, it seems only fair to try and balance those who constantly bash Canon and over-exaggerate the differences between Canon and it's competitors.  Having owned Canon, Olympus and briefly those two Sonys, I comment based on my experience, not on reading spec sheets.  Sorry if that disturbs some of you.  I am not a "Canon fanboy".  Just someone trying to give an honest opinion and keep things in perspective.  The only Camera company that I have any sort of loyalty or emotional attachment to is Olympus, as the OM-1 was my first camera. 

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2018, 11:02:09 PM »

brad-man

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2018, 11:13:56 PM »
And I thought everyone's first camera was a Kodak :P

Don Haines

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2018, 11:17:16 PM »
And I thought everyone's first camera was a Kodak :P

Kodak instamatic with the flash cubes.....
The best camera is the one in your hands

bwud

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2018, 11:27:20 PM »
The latest Metabones Adapter (Mark-V) makes all of my Canon glass sing on a Sony.   So for $2,500 I could have a far better sensor for my Canon glass and they would all focus better

I wouldn’t count on that, unless the V is substantially better than my IV, or unless the a7iii is substantially better than my a7Riii.

In some cases the canon lenses AF well adapted. In other cases they don’t AF at all. It very much depends on the lens, and on the conditions.

You’re using three different brands, none of whom, as far as I know, share IP. It’s never going to be seamless. I’ve done shoots using a Sony body, a metabones adapter, canon lenses, yongnuo triggers, canon speed lights, and elinchrom monolights. It’s a “s” show. I’ve since gone to mostly native lenses, and can use the proper trigger for my lights since the Riii finally has a flash sync port.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 11:37:50 PM by bwud »

ritholtz

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2018, 12:06:57 AM »
OP,
What are the cheap and best Sony lens one can keep a eye on. One wide angel lens, general purpose lens, some prime (30mm/35mm/50mm) lens for personal use. DPR review shows big bump in DR performance with some dual gain concept. When Sony release a crop camera with dual gain, it should be not that much far off from Canon FF right?
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neuroanatomist

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2018, 12:24:20 AM »
And I thought everyone's first camera was a Kodak :P

Kodak instamatic with the flash cubes.....

Argus TLR.
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Talys

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2018, 12:36:41 AM »
The latest Metabones Adapter (Mark-V) makes all of my Canon glass sing on a Sony.   So for $2,500 I could have a far better sensor for my Canon glass and they would all focus better

I wouldn’t count on that, unless the V is substantially better than my IV, or unless the a7iii is substantially better than my a7Riii.

In some cases the canon lenses AF well adapted. In other cases they don’t AF at all. It very much depends on the lens, and on the conditions.

You’re using three different brands, none of whom, as far as I know, share IP. It’s never going to be seamless. I’ve done shoots using a Sony body, a metabones adapter, canon lenses, yongnuo triggers, canon speed lights, and elinchrom monolights. It’s a “s” show. I’ve since gone to mostly native lenses, and can use the proper trigger for my lights since the Riii finally has a flash sync port.

I have here a Sony A7R3, the latest Metabones and Sigma adapters.  I also have a shelf full of Canon lenses, and a couple of Sigmas.

Without any reservation or exception, I can tell you that every single one I've tried would all focus better on the camera body they were designed for.  I mean, it's not even close.

The Sigma MC-11 is better than the Metabones, by the way.  If for no other reason, it doesn't crash.  The Metabones sometimes just refuses to work and requires a power cycle, especially on single shot (AF-S).  Maybe it's just this unit; I have no idea.   When was the last time a Canon lens randomly stopped autofocusing on a Canon body?

But....

1. No lens/adapter combination gives you the full range of autofocus options, like expanding focus point or locking subject tracking, or any of the cool, unique Sony features like autofocus in magnification mode.

2. All of the adapted combinations hunt to some degree.  None of the are clean, instant focus compared to either TTL PDAF or DPAF in live view.  It's not even close.

3. All of the adapted combinations have strange quirks.  Like, in continuous autofocus and EyeAF, which works now, yay, the 24-70/4IS jitters like it's having an epileptic seizure, even when the subject and camera aren't moving.

4. There are some really fun quirky combinations.  Like a Sigma MC-11 + Sigma 1.4x TC + 150-600 works... except once you pass a FL that gives you > f/8, autofocus just dies.

I have a hard time believing that any professional who earns money with their gear would ever use an adapted Canon lens on a Sony body.  It's just doesn't work the way it should.  That's not to say that they're not great for enthusiasts or hobbyists, who just want something that works, if not perfectly.  The pictures are still beautiful, and you can still achieve focus.

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2018, 12:36:41 AM »

Talys

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2018, 12:37:50 AM »
And I thought everyone's first camera was a Kodak :P

Kodak instamatic with the flash cubes.....

Argus TLR.

Wow!! That is not a common first camera :)

Mine was a Nikon SLR of some kind that was a hand-me-down from my dad.  I forget the model number now.

AvTvM

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2018, 04:45:56 AM »
It is a major error to assume that your specific needs are representative of the entire market, or any segment of it.  (that includes you, AvTvM   :) ). 

my decades-long experience tells me exactly otherwise. Almost every time i consider some product (any category) "good enough to buy" for me and my "exalted, out-of-the-ordinary, totally unique, not shared by any other human being-tastes" ... guess what, it turns out to become a 1055 mainstream, massive blockbuster seller.

last few examples from canon? 7D, 5D III, 70-200/2.8 L IS II, EOS M at € 299 ... LOL

Sole reason why Sony is not stills imaging gear market leader yet is because i don't buy their stuff yet. Why? Lenses - too big, too fat, way too expensive. Or sub-par or non-existent [looking at APS-C E-mount]. 


Market segments and porducts that will sell well in the next few years until computational photography fully takes over:

* Canon EOS M system ... because 1. it is small enough and 2. it is cheap enough ... up to now at least ... just wait for those f/1.4 clunkers some of you have been crying for all the time. 

* Canon FF mirrorless system ... if 1. it is compact enough and 2. it is "affordable enough" [for normal income-earning amateurs that is]. Couple 1000 pro's don't really count in the big picture, even though stupid Canon is dedicating 99% of their efforts to produce Mk. III, IV, V of big white lenses well beyond 10k a piece. 

 ;D   

bwud

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2018, 02:26:33 PM »
The latest Metabones Adapter (Mark-V) makes all of my Canon glass sing on a Sony.   So for $2,500 I could have a far better sensor for my Canon glass and they would all focus better

I wouldn’t count on that, unless the V is substantially better than my IV, or unless the a7iii is substantially better than my a7Riii.

In some cases the canon lenses AF well adapted. In other cases they don’t AF at all. It very much depends on the lens, and on the conditions.

You’re using three different brands, none of whom, as far as I know, share IP. It’s never going to be seamless. I’ve done shoots using a Sony body, a metabones adapter, canon lenses, yongnuo triggers, canon speed lights, and elinchrom monolights. It’s a “s” show. I’ve since gone to mostly native lenses, and can use the proper trigger for my lights since the Riii finally has a flash sync port.

I have here a Sony A7R3, the latest Metabones and Sigma adapters.  I also have a shelf full of Canon lenses, and a couple of Sigmas.

Without any reservation or exception, I can tell you that every single one I've tried would all focus better on the camera body they were designed for.  I mean, it's not even close.

Agreed. Likewise, the native Sony lenses work better than adapted counterparts.

Beware magical thinking!

When Sony release a crop camera with dual gain it should be not that much far off from Canon FF right?

Both the a6300 and a6500 use DR-Pix. “Not that much far off” is a fair assessment. Looks to be about a stop or so on average across the ISO range.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Nikon%20D850,Sony%20ILCE-6300

chik0240

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2018, 06:20:52 AM »
As a 12 years canon customer I have no objection the  A7 series got me tempted too.

But sony have always got some bugs and the reliability is more of a question to me as I used to take the expensive cameras to shoot auroras, or in mountains where weather might become harsh. I admit also that I am a die hard fan of OVF as I am too lazy to charge the battery every day or carry a dozen along for a trip. But that's just me myself.

But after thinking back how my 6 years old 5D mk III served my needs till today, I am just glad that canon helps me to not spend big money on pointless upgrading the camera lol

transpo1

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2018, 05:54:46 PM »
It may have changed the segment in your mind, but as yet there is no evidence it has changed the market segment.  Canon really only cares about the latter.

Correction- it HAS changed the FF market segment. And if it hadn’t, Canon would not bother developing and coming out with a FF mirrorless, which is what they will do in the next year.

neuroanatomist

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2018, 07:01:49 PM »
It may have changed the segment in your mind, but as yet there is no evidence it has changed the market segment.  Canon really only cares about the latter.

Correction- it HAS changed the FF market segment. And if it hadn’t, Canon would not bother developing and coming out with a FF mirrorless, which is what they will do in the next year.

Has it?  Remember in early 2017 when Sony announced that they were #2 in FF ILC sales?  In one country.  For two months.  While they were offering discounts.  Remember early this year when Nikon announced they were #1 in FF ILC sales?  For one month of 2017.  Soon after they launched a new FF ILC. 

Who was #1 in FF ILC sales for the other 11 months of last year, and also for the full year in aggregate?  Hint: the FF ILC market leader is the same company that leads the ILC market as a whole, and has for 14 years and counting.

So, what has changed, exactly?

Incidentally, Canon isn't coming out with a FF MILC because they're losing market share.  If anything, they're doing so to gain even more...just as they did in the APS-C MILC segment.
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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2018, 07:01:49 PM »

Talys

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2018, 07:05:52 PM »
It may have changed the segment in your mind, but as yet there is no evidence it has changed the market segment.  Canon really only cares about the latter.

Correction- it HAS changed the FF market segment. And if it hadn’t, Canon would not bother developing and coming out with a FF mirrorless, which is what they will do in the next year.

Do you really think that Canon decided to develop and release a FF mirrorless... on the basis of a camera that has just been announced?

That's crazy talk. 

Besides which, the A73 is hardly changes anything from the A7R3.  It's just a little cheaper and lower resolution.  I'm sure there are plenty of Canon folks that would love for Canon to slim down 6D/5D/5DS  into just two, like Sony -- higher and lower resolution, otherwise very similar, and separated by about a thousand bucks.

Of course Canon wants to have a FF mirrorless.  They want a camera to sell to everyone who wants a camera, and clearly, there are some people who want a FF mirrorless.   But like everything else, they do it on the schedule that they want to do it on, which drives some people kind of nuts :)


neuroanatomist

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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2018, 07:15:57 PM »
Do you really think that Canon decided to develop and release a FF mirrorless... on the basis of a camera that has just been announced?

That's crazy talk. 

I assumed transpo1 meant FF MILC in general. If he was actually suggesting that the A7III has changed the market or instigated Canon's FF MILC plans, that's beyond crazy, it's ridiculously asinine.  But then, it's quite possible that's exactly what transpo1 was suggesting.
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Re: FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2018, 07:15:57 PM »