April 26, 2018, 11:38:08 PM

Author Topic: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \  (Read 10761 times)

Isaacheus

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2018, 02:15:19 AM »
And lack of 4K in the rest of the lineup is a lack of perception by Canon into the marketplace- in other words, they were wrong about 4K, and do not have infallible market research, as many have stated. 4K came up faster than they anticipated. :)

We just carried out a little experiment couple of days ago in our lab. We used three 65" televisions with different configurations: (i) 1080p input into 4k TV (ii) 4k input into 4k TV (iii) 1080p input into 1080p TV. We used identical scene for comparison.

When we viewed the output at normal viewing distance, more than 1 m away, none of us (there were six of us in the lab) could tell the difference. We could only tell the difference when we stood 30 cm away from each screen and pixel-peep at specific areas of the scene. Sure, configuration (ii) gave the best output, but it was only visible when we pixel-peeped at 30 cm distance from the TV.

I feel Canon was not wrong. 4k is over-hyped. It's great for pixel-peepers and serious video editors. But for the man-in-the-street, it's an overkill.

I think a lot of it comes down to the input being displayed - there's a huge difference between 1080 and 4k (even compressed 4K) when I'm viewing the timelapses I shoot. I haven't shot a lot of wildlife, but the other side of 4k is the better colour when downsampled to 1080 too.

Not saying that it's useful all the time, but I feel there's a significant improvement in viewing quality for most of what I do at least. I'd really like to see canon including the option on more models, without large compromises

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2018, 02:15:19 AM »

JP

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2018, 03:23:08 AM »
It's just like the D30 all over again...  Just wait...  hold your horses... you switchers will be sorry...  ;-) 

hne

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2018, 05:39:43 AM »
And lack of 4K in the rest of the lineup is a lack of perception by Canon into the marketplace- in other words, they were wrong about 4K, and do not have infallible market research, as many have stated. 4K came up faster than they anticipated. :)

We just carried out a little experiment couple of days ago in our lab. We used three 65" televisions with different configurations: (i) 1080p input into 4k TV (ii) 4k input into 4k TV (iii) 1080p input into 1080p TV. We used identical scene for comparison.

When we viewed the output at normal viewing distance, more than 1 m away, none of us (there were six of us in the lab) could tell the difference. We could only tell the difference when we stood 30 cm away from each screen and pixel-peep at specific areas of the scene. Sure, configuration (ii) gave the best output, but it was only visible when we pixel-peeped at 30 cm distance from the TV.

I feel Canon was not wrong. 4k is over-hyped. It's great for pixel-peepers and serious video editors. But for the man-in-the-street, it's an overkill.

I think a lot of it comes down to the input being displayed - there's a huge difference between 1080 and 4k (even compressed 4K) when I'm viewing the timelapses I shoot. I haven't shot a lot of wildlife, but the other side of 4k is the better colour when downsampled to 1080 too.

Not saying that it's useful all the time, but I feel there's a significant improvement in viewing quality for most of what I do at least. I'd really like to see canon including the option on more models, without large compromises

I have to agree here. When you have high-contrast details that are in a static position on screen, you have use for extra resolution. But even then, I wouldn't pay extra for 4K resolution unless I had a reason to go for a TV with a diagonal larger than the viewing distance. At the 65" diagonal mentioned, I fully believe a person with normal eye sight would be able to distinguish between the sets at a 1m distance given some really nasty input like white text on black background. But only if you knew what to look for.

Now, REC2020 includes quite a bit more than allowing for higher resolutions. The larger colour gamut and additional allowance of dynamic range would be clearly visible from any practical distance, for example.

I'm with Canon in the team that can't understand why people want 4K resolution everywhere.
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BillB

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2018, 06:31:28 AM »
And lack of 4K in the rest of the lineup is a lack of perception by Canon into the marketplace- in other words, they were wrong about 4K, and do not have infallible market research, as many have stated. 4K came up faster than they anticipated. :)

We just carried out a little experiment couple of days ago in our lab. We used three 65" televisions with different configurations: (i) 1080p input into 4k TV (ii) 4k input into 4k TV (iii) 1080p input into 1080p TV. We used identical scene for comparison.

When we viewed the output at normal viewing distance, more than 1 m away, none of us (there were six of us in the lab) could tell the difference. We could only tell the difference when we stood 30 cm away from each screen and pixel-peep at specific areas of the scene. Sure, configuration (ii) gave the best output, but it was only visible when we pixel-peeped at 30 cm distance from the TV.

I feel Canon was not wrong. 4k is over-hyped. It's great for pixel-peepers and serious video editors. But for the man-in-the-street, it's an overkill.

This is the way I've felt since day 1 of the 4k mania.  I really, really don't get it for the average person, considering the file sizes and the difficulty in post.  I would think that really good 1080 would be much more important.

Part of what is going on is just internet entertainment.  Any difference that can be hyped will be hyped and asking whether there is any practical significance can be a real buzzkill, in addition requiring serious work to come up with a useful answer.  A lot of the buzz isn't really about about actually improving image quality.  Otherwise there would be a lot more discussion about using tripods and processing 4K files.

neuroanatomist

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2018, 06:58:08 AM »
The word crippling should be banned from use by those who use it wrongly. Crippling means what is now considered crippled had the features to begin with and then those features were taken away.

But hey, I'm all for every camera at every price point all having the same features. The m50 should absolutely have all the same features of a 1DX II at an M50 price.  ::) ::) ::)

Where do these people come from?

Oh my, another this camera for the price of that one argument. And I thought it is just Neuero, who has no clue how to eventually differentiate 6DII to 5DIV, unless giving 6DII an old-school sensor.

Looking at the bunch of guys interviewed, it looks like a nice panopticum, well suited for a retirement house already, if they can't identify essential features and how to further differentiate their product lines.

That's ok...you criticize, and Canon will sell lots of cameras, even if you have no clue as to why.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2018, 07:04:49 AM »
The EOS M50 offers 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS AF, but not at the same time. Is there a technical reason for this limitation?
With the EOS 5D Mark IV, we do offer 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus, so technically it is feasible. But given the position of the M50 in the lineup, we can’t include all of the features available in a product like the 5D IV.

Mr. Tugela.  Paging Mr. Tugela...

The digic 8 will do on a higher end model what it can do on a lower end model. The limitations on using PDAF when shooting 4K in the M50 are a clear indication that the processor is operating at the very limit of it's capabilities. Going to a larger body is not going to change that.

Well, after all, you're the expert on Digic processors and their capabilities.  You expertly stated that all cameras with Digic 7 would shoot 4K video, for an expertish example of your expertly expert expertise.

Mr. Tugela, would you care to expound further on how the lack of DPAF + 4K in the M50 is a technical limitation of Digic 8?  We're all eagerly awaiting to hear how you know more than Canon about their cameras.  Please, do enlighten us with more of your expertly expertish expertise and your truly dizzying intellect.
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scyrene

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2018, 08:46:24 AM »
The word crippling should be banned from use by those who use it wrongly. Crippling means what is now considered crippled had the features to begin with and then those features were taken away.

But hey, I'm all for every camera at every price point all having the same features. The m50 should absolutely have all the same features of a 1DX II at an M50 price.  ::) ::) ::)

Where do these people come from?

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2018, 08:46:24 AM »

BeenThere

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2018, 09:04:33 AM »
My take is that we will have to wait a year or more for Canon’s first FF mirrorless offering. There will be a lot of speculation on this forum between now and then. Also there will likely be a couple of SLRs before the FF mirrorless >
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bf

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2018, 09:36:40 AM »
 If Canon just limited M50's capability assuming it's lineup they made a huge mistake. No one will chose it over a DSLR like 5DmiV due to the features! They just lose more customers who would invest in M50.
When I look back, they didn't offer DPAF for years in their mirrorless cameras and they lost customers like me till they offered it in M5+6.
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jeffa4444

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2018, 09:46:17 AM »
And lack of 4K in the rest of the lineup is a lack of perception by Canon into the marketplace- in other words, they were wrong about 4K, and do not have infallible market research, as many have stated. 4K came up faster than they anticipated. :)

We just carried out a little experiment couple of days ago in our lab. We used three 65" televisions with different configurations: (i) 1080p input into 4k TV (ii) 4k input into 4k TV (iii) 1080p input into 1080p TV. We used identical scene for comparison.

When we viewed the output at normal viewing distance, more than 1 m away, none of us (there were six of us in the lab) could tell the difference. We could only tell the difference when we stood 30 cm away from each screen and pixel-peep at specific areas of the scene. Sure, configuration (ii) gave the best output, but it was only visible when we pixel-peeped at 30 cm distance from the TV.

I feel Canon was not wrong. 4k is over-hyped. It's great for pixel-peepers and serious video editors. But for the man-in-the-street, it's an overkill.

I think a lot of it comes down to the input being displayed - there's a huge difference between 1080 and 4k (even compressed 4K) when I'm viewing the timelapses I shoot. I haven't shot a lot of wildlife, but the other side of 4k is the better colour when downsampled to 1080 too.

Not saying that it's useful all the time, but I feel there's a significant improvement in viewing quality for most of what I do at least. I'd really like to see canon including the option on more models, without large compromises

I have to agree here. When you have high-contrast details that are in a static position on screen, you have use for extra resolution. But even then, I wouldn't pay extra for 4K resolution unless I had a reason to go for a TV with a diagonal larger than the viewing distance. At the 65" diagonal mentioned, I fully believe a person with normal eye sight would be able to distinguish between the sets at a 1m distance given some really nasty input like white text on black background. But only if you knew what to look for.

Now, REC2020 includes quite a bit more than allowing for higher resolutions. The larger colour gamut and additional allowance of dynamic range would be clearly visible from any practical distance, for example.

I'm with Canon in the team that can't understand why people want 4K resolution everywhere.

Not sure how "scientific" Woody experience was, but its not the experience we have had. Compression plays a big part of how good a 1080P or 4K picture is and how the picture pipeline is handled. Many 4K TVs display 1080P badly, likewise 4K delivered over say cable compared to say bluray will look very different.
No question well presented 4K will look better than 1080P/2K including at "normal" viewing distances. Now there is an optimal viewing distance and its true the higher the K the closer you need to be to get the full benefit. But and its a big but generally speaking if you view that 4K picture at a 2K viewing distance its generally better than the 2K image. The "missing part" is oversampling its generally accepted in the industry that shooting say 4K and oversampling to 2K will provide a better picture than shooting 2K for 2K output.

8K will never practically get displayed, but it will become a capture format oversampled to 4K, we already see 6K & 8K cameras from the likes of Red, Sony & Arri in video, many high end movies are already shooting this way.

In a typical multiplex cinema with a movie screen of 56ft diagonal to see the full benefit of 4K you should sit in the first three to four rows at the front of the theatre, for 8K it would be in the no mans land between the screen and the front row. However oversampling retains the wider color gamut of REC.2020 which will definitely make the pictures look different and generally speaking these cameras have better dynamic range and better signal to noise ratios.  Many other things make up a difference (format, lens choice etc.)

Canon are right and Canon are wrong about 4K / 8K, right from a practical viewing distance point of view, wrong about image information and the benefits of oversampling.
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Talys

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2018, 10:14:56 AM »
If Canon just limited M50's capability assuming it's lineup they made a huge mistake. No one will chose it over a DSLR like 5DmiV due to the features! They just lose more customers who would invest in M50.
When I look back, they didn't offer DPAF for years in their mirrorless cameras and they lost customers like me till they offered it in M5+6.

Wait... you're saying that nobody would choose the small, $740 entry level mirrorless over the full-size $3,000 flagship DSLR, because of features.... and this is unreasonable?


I'm not sure what you want.  A $750 mirrorless that does all the same things as a $3,000 dslr?  I think you'll be waiting for a while. 

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2018, 10:36:25 AM »
Bye bye, don’t let the door slap you on the ass on the way out!
I don’t suppose I’m the only one who doesn’t care!

wow thanks for the article but that is such bullshit! Keep it up Canon, protect your 5DIV in the meanwhile I'll sell mine and buy an A7III and a6500. Idiots.
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ichiru

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2018, 11:03:15 AM »


Which part did you think was bull?

Is it that you simply don't like that Canon does not lower prices and add features features of flagship models down to the more entry level models (ie A7iii price), do you not like the direction that they're charting out, or what?

The 5DMk4 is a very different camera from the A7iii and A6500.  If you're happy with it, you might not be happy with the Sony -- and vice versa.  As you own a 5D4 already, what is about the 5D4 that you aren't happy with?
[/quote]

Simply put? The crippling part was bullshit... I mean they are being very straightforward about it too.

I am not happy about the lack of an EVF, a tilt screen, truly widespread autofocus points (through the viewfinder). I could definitely use a stabilized sensor as well as 10 fps. I shoot Canon for the L glass... I enjoy the colors as well but damn I feel everybody else innovates better than they do and yeah that is frustrating.

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2018, 11:03:15 AM »

ichiru

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2018, 11:09:43 AM »


Such an ignorant post.

So go ahead. If you think that new Sony is going to make photos from a 5DM4 suddenly obsolete and unusable, then it just proves that you're more a weekend shooter and not someone that really is in a position to use either camera to its fullest extent.  Either camera provides photo quality that most will never be able to distinguish.

So give it a rest.  Threats of jumping ship get really old.
[/quote]

Dude. I was using original 5Ds until last year... I was satisfied with image quality but upgraded for other reasons. You can call me a weekend shooter all you want but I am not sure how that explains my gear is 100 % paid by my business. Jumping ship is not something I want to do as I love my L glass... but you'd have to be hiding your head in the sand if you can't even imagine how that is super tempting at half the price!?

ichiru

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2018, 11:11:25 AM »
Bye bye, don’t let the door slap you on the ass on the way out!
I don’t suppose I’m the only one who doesn’t care!

Well for one Canon should care because there are loads of other people doing the same out there my friend =D.

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2018, 11:11:25 AM »