April 26, 2018, 08:17:24 AM

Author Topic: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \  (Read 10682 times)

neuroanatomist

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #90 on: March 22, 2018, 07:24:53 AM »
You won't win even one buyer of a 5D4 by crippling the M50, 6D2, 7D3, ... but loose buyers on those. Canon is lost with this snotty attitude.

If they are so 'lost', please explain how it is that they remain the market leader and are gaining marketshare.

Neuroanatomist no one is denying Canon is doing great sales wise. They are definitely doing some things right I mean... yeah that's pretty obvious and nobody here ever argued that. And I would even argue that historically Canon has proven they can pull through a whole lot in the long term. But is it really that hard for you to conceive their business decisions may not ultimately be the best at the present moment?!

I cannot see the future and you can tell me all you want about not caring about my opinion blah blah blah. I respect yours :). Meanwhile it is generally accepted in the industry right now that Canon's success in the mirrorless segment is a bit of a surprise given they entered the market relatively late (new camera models and lenses are only accelerating in the last year or so) and play pretty much catch up on most feature sets (refresh rate, autofocus speed, dynamic range, etc, with one of the few exceptions being their absolutely brilliant video dual pixel autofocus). I bet Nikon will make a killing in the mirrorless segment as well when they pull their own act together. And I would even speculate that their success is easy to explain; these two companies (Canikon) have an amazing reputation. Now; you are 100 % allowed to disagree with that next statement but I feel, and I know of countless other people in the photography world that share my opinion, that this reputation and those 'free passes' Canon is getting are eventually going to run out if they keep the same business attitude. Again it's an opinion, shared by many, disagreed by many, including you. I cannot read the future anymore than you but I do wish to express I absolutely love my Canon gear and if I am pissed it's only because I don't understand why 'smaller' brands such as Sony, Nikon, Panasonic, Olympus and Pentax can have all the features I want and Canon can't. I don't doubt they will catch up but they are sooo slow (even Canon reps admitted that in an earlier interview). I have shot Canon for over 12 years. I had digital SLRs when Canon used to have lower noise and better dynamic range than Nikon. Now the roles are reversed and yup I was relieved when the 5DIV came out and then bammm here comes the 6DII with a sensor that is years behind technology wise (again, except for dual pixel AF). Now you're going to say again nobody cares and you are right! Nobody cares about my single opinion (although that is about the sole purpose of a forum on rumors i.e. the discussion of opinions !) but you see it is not a rare opinion, and that's the real issue. You may find many supporters of Canon here on a Canon forum of a Canon website but that is it. The excitement for Canon cameras is being threatened and I fear it may go the same way the iphone did; i.e. staying relevant but being completely overtaken by the competition https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6581377/meeker-2016-ios-android.jpg. Iphones are still amazing phones but in terms of innovation and ability to attract people solely on brand name... it's not what it used to be.

Believe me I hope as much as you that Canon will continue to lead the industry (which is why I am checking this site daily for the last 3 years, lately in particular for a mirrorless Canon camera) but I am a skeptical at the moment and yeah I will be happy to come back when they prove me wrong.

Anyways, no hard feelings man, this forum is about discussions and opinions, I respect yours.

Cheers.

Here's the thing – the areas where you say Canon is behind, dynamic range, 'innovation' (they're not, really, except on the Internet), etc., are areas where they've been behind for many years.  The areas where they are ahead (reliability, lens selection, value), they've been ahead for many years.  What does their market performance over the past several years tell you about the relative importance of those factors?

Obviously, nothing is certain. 

As for, "...it is generally accepted in the industry right now that Canon's success in the mirrorless segment is a bit of a surprise," what is your basis for that?  Given their brand reputation, I doubt many people with actual knowledge of the market found it surprising.  Internet armchair experts may have, but that says more about their poor grasp of the market than anything else.

Cheers.  :)
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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #90 on: March 22, 2018, 07:24:53 AM »

Orangutan

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #91 on: March 22, 2018, 08:04:48 AM »
You won't win even one buyer of a 5D4 by crippling the M50, 6D2, 7D3, ... but loose buyers on those. Canon is lost with this snotty attitude.

If they are so 'lost', please explain how it is that they remain the market leader and are gaining marketshare.

Do you really need to ask such questions?
Certainly, why not?  I mean that sincerely...what's wrong with the question? 

Quote
Look, you can sell million od devices for the price of x, or sell hundred of thousadns for the higher price. The turn-over is going to be identical. Guess which groups creative ppl belong into. So if you really think that selling to "blogging moms" is just OK, well then ....

First, I think Canon knows how to do arithmetic, and they probably can do those calculations better than anyone on this forum.

Second, think of Canon as the Honda or Toyota of the camera world, not the Mercedes or BMW, and certainly not Ferrari.  Canon and Honda seem to be doing fine, financially.

Canon does not care who buys their gear to put money in their bank account.  Neither do any of the other companies: these are not are not charities or arts advocacy associations, they are profit-driven companies, and nothing else.

 

stevelee

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #92 on: March 22, 2018, 08:06:25 AM »
I’m reminded of the old joke about a car dealership’s TV ad that said, “We lose money on every deal, but we make up for it with volume.”

I tell that if someone asks about my singing, too.

-pekr-

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #93 on: March 22, 2018, 12:47:55 PM »

Canon does not care who buys their gear to put money in their bank account.  Neither do any of the other companies: these are not are not charities or arts advocacy associations, they are profit-driven companies, and nothing else.

This is the most bizarre business quote I ever read :-) Have you ever heard of the product segmentation, target audience, etc? Companies do spend fortunes to know their customers, to predict or influence their behaviour, etc.

Talys

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #94 on: March 22, 2018, 01:19:04 PM »

Canon does not care who buys their gear to put money in their bank account.  Neither do any of the other companies: these are not are not charities or arts advocacy associations, they are profit-driven companies, and nothing else.

This is the most bizarre business quote I ever read :-) Have you ever heard of the product segmentation, target audience, etc? Companies do spend fortunes to know their customers, to predict or influence their behaviour, etc.

Two things.

First, knowing your customer and being profit-driven are not mutually exclusive characteristics.  To the contrary, to maximize your profits, you must understand the demand side of the equation.  Also, customer goodwill is a part of being customer-driven.  That doesn't mean just giving people cheap products -- reliable products are very important (would you buy another Kitchenaid fridge if the icemaker in the last one kept breaking?), as are professional services for your most demanding customers.

Second, just because a company is profit driven doesn't mean that its product designers and engineers aren't passionate about what they do.  For example, Microsoft and Google and Apple are surely profit-driven, yet product design teams in each of their teams want to produce the best products that they can, given the constraints of the market.

neuroanatomist

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #95 on: March 22, 2018, 01:37:34 PM »
Second, just because a company is profit driven doesn't mean that its product designers and engineers aren't passionate about what they do.  For example, Microsoft and Google and Apple are surely profit-driven, yet product design teams in each of their teams want to produce the best products that they can, given the constraints of the market.

So you're saying that maybe a design/engineering team could build a feature into a product only to be told, "Take that out," by marketing?  Shocking.  Simply shocking. 
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unfocused

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #96 on: March 22, 2018, 02:08:22 PM »

Canon does not care who buys their gear to put money in their bank account.  Neither do any of the other companies: these are not are not charities or arts advocacy associations, they are profit-driven companies, and nothing else.

This is the most bizarre business quote I ever read :-) Have you ever heard of the product segmentation, target audience, etc? Companies do spend fortunes to know their customers, to predict or influence their behaviour, etc.

To be fair, you are taking Orangutan's comment out of context. He was responding to the sexist and elitist statement... "you can sell million of devices for the price of x, or sell hundred of thousands for the higher price...Guess which groups creative ppl belong into. So if you really think that selling to "blogging moms" is just OK, well then ...."

The statement is not only offensive but it is factually incorrect. Factually incorrect because it is certainly not true that creative people belong exclusively to a group that either designs or sells products to high-end customers. Designing and selling quality products at an affordable price can require much more innovation and creativity than selling high-end products to people with lots of disposable income. Elitists don't have a monopoly on creativity. In fact, it is often just the opposite.

I took Orangutan's statement as meaning that most companies don't impose cultural background checks on their customers. Indeed most manufacturers try to produce a range of products meant to appeal to customers are varying levels of resources and sophistication. In that context, he is correct, Canon does not care who is buying their products. If they could make the same amount of money and have the same profit margin by selling only entry level rebels or selling only 1Dx IIs, they would probably do so. But, they sell a mix of cameras at mix of prices because that is their successful business model.

I won't even dignify the blatant sexism with a response.

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #96 on: March 22, 2018, 02:08:22 PM »

unfocused

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #97 on: March 22, 2018, 02:20:06 PM »
Second, just because a company is profit driven doesn't mean that its product designers and engineers aren't passionate about what they do.  For example, Microsoft and Google and Apple are surely profit-driven, yet product design teams in each of their teams want to produce the best products that they can, given the constraints of the market.

So you're saying that maybe a design/engineering team could build a feature into a product only to be told, "Take that out," by marketing?  Shocking.  Simply shocking.

I don't get your point. As someone who has spent much of his life marketing, I can't imagine any marketing team telling management to remove a feature desired by consumers. Most marketing departments are interested in adding as many features as possible at the lowest possible cost. After all, the marketing department is interested in boosting sales. Lower prices and more features will sell more product than higher costs and fewer features.

Much more likely that either the design/engineering team or the accounting department will resist adding a feature. Engineers don't like to add features that require them to change the way they've always done things and accounting departments don't like to see the profits cut.

I never understand why people complain about marketing departments, when they are the consumers' best friends.

Talys

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #98 on: March 22, 2018, 02:44:46 PM »
Second, just because a company is profit driven doesn't mean that its product designers and engineers aren't passionate about what they do.  For example, Microsoft and Google and Apple are surely profit-driven, yet product design teams in each of their teams want to produce the best products that they can, given the constraints of the market.

So you're saying that maybe a design/engineering team could build a feature into a product only to be told, "Take that out," by marketing?  Shocking.  Simply shocking.

Not that I'm disagreeing, but this isn't what if was trying to get at.

A lot of us work for businesses that need to stay profitable to stay in business,  and I would hope that most in this circumstance would want their company to do well. We are driven by different things, usually not just the company's bottom line. I think a lot of people in engineering are passionate about their profession.

My point is that Canon (or other businesses) aren't employed by tens of thousands of people who are just trying to squeeze every last dime out of every prospective customer.   There are product managers whose job it is to stratify products so that there is a blend of features and price that they think will be attractive. But they aren't evil either, or even trying to take stuff away from folks.

If a camera can be profitable at $900, is it better to just do that,  or split it into a $800 and $1000 version? Well, on a personal level, you'd be happy if the $800 version did everything you wanted, less so if you had to spend $1000. But that's just the world we live in; there is nothing shocking or evil about it.

scyrene

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #99 on: March 22, 2018, 03:15:43 PM »

Canon does not care who buys their gear to put money in their bank account.  Neither do any of the other companies: these are not are not charities or arts advocacy associations, they are profit-driven companies, and nothing else.

This is the most bizarre business quote I ever read :-) Have you ever heard of the product segmentation, target audience, etc? Companies do spend fortunes to know their customers, to predict or influence their behaviour, etc.

To be fair, you are taking Orangutan's comment out of context. He was responding to the sexist and elitist statement... "you can sell million of devices for the price of x, or sell hundred of thousands for the higher price...Guess which groups creative ppl belong into. So if you really think that selling to "blogging moms" is just OK, well then ...."

The statement is not only offensive but it is factually incorrect. Factually incorrect because it is certainly not true that creative people belong exclusively to a group that either designs or sells products to high-end customers. Designing and selling quality products at an affordable price can require much more innovation and creativity than selling high-end products to people with lots of disposable income. Elitists don't have a monopoly on creativity. In fact, it is often just the opposite.

I took Orangutan's statement as meaning that most companies don't impose cultural background checks on their customers. Indeed most manufacturers try to produce a range of products meant to appeal to customers are varying levels of resources and sophistication. In that context, he is correct, Canon does not care who is buying their products. If they could make the same amount of money and have the same profit margin by selling only entry level rebels or selling only 1Dx IIs, they would probably do so. But, they sell a mix of cameras at mix of prices because that is their successful business model.

I won't even dignify the blatant sexism with a response.

Well said!
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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #100 on: March 23, 2018, 01:27:37 AM »

Canon does not care who buys their gear to put money in their bank account.  Neither do any of the other companies: these are not are not charities or arts advocacy associations, they are profit-driven companies, and nothing else.

This is the most bizarre business quote I ever read :-) Have you ever heard of the product segmentation, target audience, etc? Companies do spend fortunes to know their customers, to predict or influence their behaviour, etc.

To be fair, you are taking Orangutan's comment out of context. He was responding to the sexist and elitist statement... "you can sell million of devices for the price of x, or sell hundred of thousands for the higher price...Guess which groups creative ppl belong into. So if you really think that selling to "blogging moms" is just OK, well then ...."


No, he was not and you should learn of how not to put things out of context yourself. Just go and re-read prior conversation - those two paragraphs I left did not put the third one out of the context. To your "sexist and elitist" accusation - I have used the "quotes", as the term "blogging moms" was used in subsequent discussions re m50 release. It was used mostly as an attack quote to Canon, rather than to harass any social group of ppl.


I took Orangutan's statement as meaning that most companies don't impose cultural background checks on their customers. Indeed most manufacturers try to produce a range of products meant to appeal to customers are varying levels of resources and sophistication. In that context, he is correct, Canon does not care who is buying their products. If they could make the same amount of money and have the same profit margin by selling only entry level rebels or selling only 1Dx IIs, they would probably do so. But, they sell a mix of cameras at mix of prices because that is their successful business model.


And you are of course wrong again. Company not caring who's buying their products is a doomed one. It is quite normal to address your adverts to particular sex. Apart from corporate IT, I work in advertising, run LED screen business and I don't need to be tuaght how to scope the target audience. Where is the sexism in there, if I target a wedding advert to women in particular or some children related stuff to moms? You are making stuff up ....

I won't even dignify the blatant sexism with a response.

This is my last warning to you - one more false accusation to the person you know nothing about re sexisms or other aspects of social life, and you get reported to moderator for a blatant accussations.

Orangutan

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #101 on: March 23, 2018, 08:53:44 AM »

Canon does not care who buys their gear to put money in their bank account.  Neither do any of the other companies: these are not are not charities or arts advocacy associations, they are profit-driven companies, and nothing else.

This is the most bizarre business quote I ever read :-) Have you ever heard of the product segmentation, target audience, etc? Companies do spend fortunes to know their customers, to predict or influence their behaviour, etc.

To be fair, you are taking Orangutan's comment out of context. He was responding to the sexist and elitist statement... "you can sell million of devices for the price of x, or sell hundred of thousands for the higher price...Guess which groups creative ppl belong into. So if you really think that selling to "blogging moms" is just OK, well then ...."


No, he was not 
Yes, I was.  The terms "blogging moms" and "creative ppl"(sic) jumped out at me from your message.  I should have called out those ridiculous ideas explicitly; fortunately, unfocused did a great job in follow-up.

Quote
To your "sexist and elitist" accusation - I have used the "quotes", as the term "blogging moms" was used in subsequent discussions re m50 release.
Do you mean "subsequent" or "previous?"  Maybe you should have referred to the original use of the term: you can't expect people to know your context.

Quote
It was used mostly as an attack quote to Canon, rather than to harass any social group of ppl.
If that was your intent, you didn't do it very well.


Quote

I took Orangutan's statement as meaning that most companies don't impose cultural background checks on their customers. Indeed most manufacturers try to produce a range of products meant to appeal to customers are varying levels of resources and sophistication. In that context, he is correct, Canon does not care who is buying their products. If they could make the same amount of money and have the same profit margin by selling only entry level rebels or selling only 1Dx IIs, they would probably do so. But, they sell a mix of cameras at mix of prices because that is their successful business model.


Company not caring who's buying their products is a doomed one. It is quite normal to address your adverts to particular sex. Apart from corporate IT, I work in advertising, run LED screen business and I don't need to be tuaght how to scope the target audience. Where is the sexism in there, if I target a wedding advert to women in particular or some children related stuff to moms? You are making stuff up
We all know marketing targets different segments of potential buyers, so that is not in dispute; it's also not what you misunderstood about my post.  Go back and read Unfocused's post -- pretty much perfect.

I won't even dignify the blatant sexism with a response.

Quote
This is my last warning to you - one more false accusation to the person you know nothing about re sexisms or other aspects of social life, and you get reported to moderator for a blatant accussations.
Oh, you're one of those.  Look, if you're in advertising, you should be aware when a marketing campaign fails, and it's time to backtrack and try again.  This marketing campaign,

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=34716.msg713571#msg713571

 was a failure.


neuroanatomist

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #102 on: March 23, 2018, 09:30:54 AM »
Oh, you're one of those.  Look, if you're in advertising, you should be aware when a marketing campaign fails, and it's time to backtrack and try again.  This marketing campaign,

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=34716.msg713571#msg713571

 was a failure.

Indeed.  I guess his point was that he thinks he's one of those 'creative ppl' and he's a much better photographer than all those 'blogging moms' becuase he buys more expensive gear that fewer (and thus, more elite) people own. But then, that's the sort of sentiment I'd expect from a -pecker-.
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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #102 on: March 23, 2018, 09:30:54 AM »

3kramd5

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #103 on: March 23, 2018, 03:51:23 PM »
The excitement for Canon cameras is being threatened and I fear it may go the same way the iphone did; i.e. staying relevant but being completely overtaken by the competition https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6581377/meeker-2016-ios-android.jpg

So the operating system only installed in single manufacturer’s phones is less used than a free operating system found in practically every other manufacturer’s phones? Shocking.

It’s hard to draw the parallel to canon.

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Re: DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \
« Reply #103 on: March 23, 2018, 03:51:23 PM »