June 20, 2018, 04:08:39 AM

Author Topic: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]  (Read 17511 times)

unfocused

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #60 on: April 11, 2018, 11:02:30 PM »
You can't really believe the 's' series would ever come close to matching the standard 5D?

You said a tiny fraction... its certainly not.

Stats on uploaded pic's to the internet point to a current 4:1 ratio for the 5DIV. And I suspect that average posting rate on top is a little lower for the 5DS/R than the 5DIV - even if we can probably discount this in a big numbers game.

I'm not going to quibble over "tiny fraction" vs. "fraction," so I've amended my comment. It doesn't negate my point that a body style change for a model that sells less than another model is going to take longer to recoup.

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #60 on: April 11, 2018, 11:02:30 PM »

melgross

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #61 on: May 21, 2018, 10:42:16 AM »
Please, let’s not talk about this 120MP sensor for a DSLR.

It’s quite clear that this isn’t intended for such use for a general purpose camera. Most DSLRs, as well as mirrorless models, have 14 bit sensors. This has a 10 bit sensor. As such, it’s more aimed at video, considering the rolling shutter.

What a replacement 5Ds needs is a sensor that’s a bit higher in Rez, to keep ahead of the Nikon/Sony models we’ll see in the next couple of years, say 60MP, and a significantly better noise ratio and dynamic range, areas in which Canon is still behind. We don’t know if this sensor contains the amplifier on chip, as do the Nikon/Sony sensors, and the newest Canon devices, or not.

No matter what, full frame cameras will never equal the dynamic range of even the sub medium format sensors used the in Hasselblad and Fuji models that are 44 x 33mm, at higher resolutions. So that’s where we need concentration, not pie in the sky resolution.

Maiaibing

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2018, 06:02:20 PM »
No matter what, full frame cameras will never equal the dynamic range of even the sub medium format sensors used the in Hasselblad and Fuji models that are 44 x 33mm, at higher resolutions. So that’s where we need concentration, not pie in the sky resolution.

The 5DIV with 1 stop better DR below iso 400 than the 5DS/R is already available for those who think that matters to their photography. Not that bad compared to the competition either. Those who desperately want more at low iso have likely left Canon by now, since Canon has been lagging behind with DR for years.

The rest of us would like to have a real MPIX increase - thank you. 5DS/R actually has excellent DR and high iso on par with the 5DIV plus super colors and quite good fps. I'll happily have incremental improvements on all those - but its the MPIX that makes the 5DS/R an outstanding - even unrivalled - DSLR. It should be the same for its successor.

cpsico

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2018, 10:37:09 PM »
Nice.  I'll likely get one for travel/architecture, although I'd prefer a 1-series form factor with that sensor – the 1D Xs (or is that excessive?)
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tron

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2018, 07:38:47 AM »
5DsR needs a memory buffer boost and maybe 1 to 2 fps more. Add the new sensor (5D4-like) capabilities, touch screen, GPS and Dual pixel (if possible due to already smaller pixels) and you have a winner for a long time.

jeffa4444

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #65 on: June 12, 2018, 10:03:45 AM »
Here is my wish list based on the excellent 5DS for improvements.

1. Faster flash sync speed
2. Illuminated focus points after focus lock
3. Dual Pixel
4. Touch screen
5. Better low light / dynamic range performance
6. Faster write speed to cards

Some would argue for more MP but I think 50MP is fine
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ahsanford

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #66 on: June 12, 2018, 12:33:52 PM »
Both 5DS models apparently have no trouble holding price.  $3499/$3699 in the US some three years after first shipments -- that's spectacular price retention.  I'm hard pressed to think of another > $1k Canon body that's still at 90%+ asking price three years later.

Questions:

1) Could we infer that high resolution retains value better than other features?

2) Don't throw anything at me, but is this sort of price strength over time ever a tell that Canon doesn't really need to update that model right now?  I fully recognize all the tech that isn't in the 5DS models today, and wouldn't we all find a supercamera with increase throughput a la the D850 / A7R3 something to marvel at -- but perhaps Canon doesn't need to replace the 5DS models and could just keep printing money by extending the lifecycle another year like they did with the 7D1.  (<-- I realize that's a wildly different camera and Nikon left that segment dormant for a cycle, but the question is clear:  If you can maintain price without offering a new model, why rush the new model forward?)

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #66 on: June 12, 2018, 12:33:52 PM »

Talys

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #67 on: June 12, 2018, 12:45:28 PM »
Both 5DS models apparently have no trouble holding price.  $3499/$3699 in the US some three years after first shipments -- that's spectacular price retention.  I'm hard pressed to think of another > $1k Canon body that's still at 90%+ asking price three years later.

Questions:

1) Could we infer that high resolution retains value better than other features?

2) Don't throw anything at me, but is this sort of price strength over time ever a tell that Canon doesn't really need to update that model right now?  I fully recognize all the tech that isn't in the 5DS models today, and wouldn't we all find a supercamera with increase throughput a la the D850 / A7R3 something to marvel at -- but perhaps Canon doesn't need to replace the 5DS models and could just keep printing money by extending the lifecycle another year like they did with the 7D1.  (<-- I realize that's a wildly different camera and Nikon left that segment dormant for a cycle, but the question is clear:  If you can maintain price without offering a new model, why rush the new model forward?)

- A

I'm actually AMAZED at how the 5DSR has retained its price.

The things I want from a new model, that might entice me to buy one are:

1. I want the camera to feel generally, more responsive than the current 5DSR.

2. A better (read: not JPEG...) crop mode.

3. 6D2 touchscreen niceties, and 6D2 flip screen.

I'm sure it will have dual pixel and that kind of thing, and some minor sensor improvements are welcome, but I'm ambivalent about significantly > 50 megapixels.

ahsanford

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #68 on: June 12, 2018, 12:54:51 PM »
Questions:

1) Could we infer that high resolution retains value better than other features?

Just following up on this bit:

Nikon D850 = still at original asking price one year later.

Sony A7R III = Just got price reduced for the first time -- also about a year old.  That might be a victim of some cannibalization, though.  The A7 III is a bit of a beast for the dollar, and it's possible folks don't feel the added cost of the A7R III is as strong of a value in comparison.

Sony A99-II (the forgotten supercamera these days) = Still at original asking price some 1.5 years later.

I am leaving the RX1R II out of this as I feel that's being deliberately marketed to a different crowd, almost like the Nikon Df was.  It's a showpiece that lives/dies on being something painful to attain.   I don't think Sony will discount that thing one bit, but I think that's more about it's perceived luxury status than any resolution-fueled staying power.

I know we only have a limited set of products to judge this on, but it would appear that regardless of whether we think we need 40-50 MP, the market still seems quite comfortable paying top dollar for it.

- A
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 12:57:45 PM by ahsanford »

Talys

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #69 on: June 12, 2018, 03:24:46 PM »

Sony A7R III = Just got price reduced for the first time -- also about a year old.  That might be a victim of some cannibalization, though.  The A7 III is a bit of a beast for the dollar, and it's possible folks don't feel the added cost of the A7R III is as strong of a value in comparison.


The A7R3 was effectively price reduced a not too long after launch, as Sony offered $300 instant trade-in rebate of any interchangeable camera body or lens.  You could bring in a broken FD lens and claim on the $300 (at the same time, there was a $500 trade in for the A9).

On the other hand, Sony has no good body+lens deals.

ahsanford

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #70 on: June 12, 2018, 03:48:05 PM »
The A7R3 was effectively price reduced a not too long after launch, as Sony offered $300 instant trade-in rebate of any interchangeable camera body or lens.  You could bring in a broken FD lens and claim on the $300 (at the same time, there was a $500 trade in for the A9).

That's not a price drop so much as a promotion, right? 

The first price drop just happened, I believe.

https://www.cpricewatch.com/product/06423/Sony-Alpha-a7R-III-price.html

- A

Talys

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #71 on: June 14, 2018, 09:50:26 AM »
The A7R3 was effectively price reduced a not too long after launch, as Sony offered $300 instant trade-in rebate of any interchangeable camera body or lens.  You could bring in a broken FD lens and claim on the $300 (at the same time, there was a $500 trade in for the A9).

That's not a price drop so much as a promotion, right? 

The first price drop just happened, I believe.

https://www.cpricewatch.com/product/06423/Sony-Alpha-a7R-III-price.html

- A

Oh, you mean *permanent* price drop.  I see.

Yeah, when, I meant, a reduced price / sale of some kind during a limited window.  10% is a pretty big discount right after launch.

applecider

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2018, 07:53:49 PM »
Given premise that the more MP the worse the high iso performance...

And given that canon seems to like new cameras to increase MP without a decrease in high iOS performance....

The question is how many more pixels can continue to support a max standard iso 6400 even with on chip processing.  I’m guessing that that number is somewhere near 60 MP. 

So that is my prediction for the 5DSR ii,  60MP same iso range.

Second hope is if there could be an in camera down sampling, or pooling of adjacent pixels to provide a higher iso option, and if this would degrade image quality. If not maybe a 120MP camera with 4:1 high iso crop mode where each 4 pixel cluster is added and averaged to effectively downsample to 30MP (each four pixel group averages into one so 120/4 yields 30MP) .  At 120MP iso max might be 3200, but downsampled could be 25600. I don’t know how the math works and if Potential gains are linear or or proportional to number of pixels pooled to down sample.

Does anyone know if any camera system currently does this and if so how much gain in high iso is achieved.  I would hope that noise could be cut to 1/4th with a 4:1 down sampling. 
 
The other problem with this approach is that each image would require a significant amount of processing before getting to memory card.
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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2018, 07:53:49 PM »

dak723

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #73 on: June 15, 2018, 09:44:29 PM »
Questions:

1) Could we infer that high resolution retains value better than other features?

Just following up on this bit:

Nikon D850 = still at original asking price one year later.

Sony A7R III = Just got price reduced for the first time -- also about a year old.  That might be a victim of some cannibalization, though.  The A7 III is a bit of a beast for the dollar, and it's possible folks don't feel the added cost of the A7R III is as strong of a value in comparison.

Sony A99-II (the forgotten supercamera these days) = Still at original asking price some 1.5 years later.

I am leaving the RX1R II out of this as I feel that's being deliberately marketed to a different crowd, almost like the Nikon Df was.  It's a showpiece that lives/dies on being something painful to attain.   I don't think Sony will discount that thing one bit, but I think that's more about it's perceived luxury status than any resolution-fueled staying power.

I know we only have a limited set of products to judge this on, but it would appear that regardless of whether we think we need 40-50 MP, the market still seems quite comfortable paying top dollar for it.

- A

Because there's a sucker born every minute!  8) ;D :-[

AlanF

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #74 on: June 16, 2018, 03:04:19 AM »
Both 5DS models apparently have no trouble holding price.  $3499/$3699 in the US some three years after first shipments -- that's spectacular price retention.  I'm hard pressed to think of another > $1k Canon body that's still at 90%+ asking price three years later.

Questions:

1) Could we infer that high resolution retains value better than other features?

2) Don't throw anything at me, but is this sort of price strength over time ever a tell that Canon doesn't really need to update that model right now?  I fully recognize all the tech that isn't in the 5DS models today, and wouldn't we all find a supercamera with increase throughput a la the D850 / A7R3 something to marvel at -- but perhaps Canon doesn't need to replace the 5DS models and could just keep printing money by extending the lifecycle another year like they did with the 7D1.  (<-- I realize that's a wildly different camera and Nikon left that segment dormant for a cycle, but the question is clear:  If you can maintain price without offering a new model, why rush the new model forward?)

- A

I'm actually AMAZED at how the 5DSR has retained its price.

The things I want from a new model, that might entice me to buy one are:

1. I want the camera to feel generally, more responsive than the current 5DSR.

2. A better (read: not JPEG...) crop mode.

3. 6D2 touchscreen niceties, and 6D2 flip screen.

I'm sure it will have dual pixel and that kind of thing, and some minor sensor improvements are welcome, but I'm ambivalent about significantly > 50 megapixels.

We both share a passion for bird photography. Unless I am going for an action photography session, my go-to body for a birding day is my 5DSR and not my 5DIV. Its high resolution sensor combined with the absence of an AA-filter gives an effective 600mm "reach" with the 100-400mm II relative to using it on your 6DII. Further, the noise issue is not real. I have posted in CR bird images taken at iso 6400 pushed 1 to 2 stops, processed with DxO PRIME (taken by wife as she uses it and I the 5DIV when we go out together).

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=35153.msg723607#msg723607
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Re: Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]
« Reply #74 on: June 16, 2018, 03:04:19 AM »