April 25, 2018, 08:49:43 PM

Author Topic: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos  (Read 6331 times)

9VIII

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2018, 11:19:51 PM »
The basic premise stands:
Your photography is ultimately an expression of your own creativity, you are the only real source of authority on what is good in your photography.
When people try to apply Dunning-Kruger to their photography, all they accomplish is to bring doubt on their own preferences.

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2018, 11:19:51 PM »

unfocused

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #76 on: April 17, 2018, 12:27:54 AM »
The basic premise stands...

It never stood in the first place, so repeating it doesn't make it true.

Talys

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2018, 01:05:41 AM »
The basic premise stands:
Your photography is ultimately an expression of your own creativity, you are the only real source of authority on what is good in your photography.
When people try to apply Dunning-Kruger to their photography, all they accomplish is to bring doubt on their own preferences.

I don't agree.

Your premise is only true in the context of: "I only care about my own opinion.  Nobody else's matters.  Ergo, I am the only authority on what is good or bad."  I suppose if you are POTUS 45 that holds in your personal delusion. 

There is the less narcisstic version: "I don't care about what others think about my photography.  It makes me happy, and that all that matters."  And that's fine, but just because you think chopping people off at the knees is cool doesn't mean that the rest of the world thinks so. 

From a professional perspective, saying "I'm the only judge of my work" is hogwash, because the only judge of your work that matters is your client, and whether they're willing to pay you, publish your work, hire you again or say nice things about you.  If you think ultra-dramatic photos (high contrast between left and right sides) are awesome, go take a hundred headshots like that, and good luck getting paid.

sanj

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #78 on: April 17, 2018, 02:23:05 AM »
I thought this was a coffee maker.

Bwahhhhhh......  ;D ;D ;D

Mikehit

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2018, 03:45:33 AM »

It is a fundamental misunderstanding to think that Dunning-Kruger can be applied to art.
“Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”


You are talking about art merely as a finished item not including how you make it or how you pre-empt what it is you want to create.

Quote
You’re probably still conflating “art” with the skills of manipulating the machine called a “camera”. I’ve said it a dozen times now, that skill definitely applies to Dunning-Kruger, but the composition of a photograph cannot be given an objective measurement of value and cannot be applied to Dunnning Kruger.
Again, you are misquoting the original video simply for sake of complaining. The video is not about 'art' but about 'photography.

The original video: it was about photography and bad photographers
Your rant: "This video is about insecure photographers making art and I will show how it is totally wrong"

So in other words:  "I accept there is a technical aspect to photography but because that does not fit my pre-formed idea that D-K is irrelevant to photography, I will ignore it."
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 03:48:58 AM by Mikehit »

Mikehit

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #80 on: April 17, 2018, 03:54:46 AM »


There is still no basis for calling the Mona Lisa a “masterpiece” other than if the artist claimed it as such. If he didn’t then it wouldn’t even be right to call it that.

WHAT?
The Mona Lisa was regarded as good but not a masterpiece until it was stolen in the early 20th century - the publicity catapulted it into the public consciousness.
How many times does the value of a painting increase or decrease while arguments of its provenance wax and wane?
How many artists died destitute but whose paintings now sell for millions?

The idea that it is the artist alone who defines it as a masterpiece is laughable.

AlanF

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #81 on: April 17, 2018, 05:41:38 AM »
As a schoolboy, I defended the motion in a debating contest that: "The value of a work of art becomes apparent only at its auction". The ensuing debate convinced me never to take part in such discussions again. So, to quote Sam Goldwyn, include me out.
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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #81 on: April 17, 2018, 05:41:38 AM »

Mikehit

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #82 on: April 17, 2018, 06:24:56 AM »
As a schoolboy, I defended the motion in a debating contest that: "The value of a work of art becomes apparent only at its auction". The ensuing debate convinced me never to take part in such discussions again. So, to quote Sam Goldwyn, include me out.

I remember a long discussion as a student on this, and one of my contemporaries was insistent that the 'worth' of an art piece was influenced by the suffering that the artist had experienced in his life.
I was reminded of this recently when I read an article on how there is a lot of computer-generated music the people don't realise had no human intervention other than writing the program, and it is getting to a point where they can press a button for 'rock' or 'blues' or 'melancholy'.

I wonder how long before they reverse-engineer face/object recognition to do the same with painting.

Talys

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #83 on: April 17, 2018, 12:30:56 PM »
As a schoolboy, I defended the motion in a debating contest that: "The value of a work of art becomes apparent only at its auction". The ensuing debate convinced me never to take part in such discussions again. So, to quote Sam Goldwyn, include me out.

I remember a long discussion as a student on this, and one of my contemporaries was insistent that the 'worth' of an art piece was influenced by the suffering that the artist had experienced in his life.
I was reminded of this recently when I read an article on how there is a lot of computer-generated music the people don't realise had no human intervention other than writing the program, and it is getting to a point where they can press a button for 'rock' or 'blues' or 'melancholy'.

I wonder how long before they reverse-engineer face/object recognition to do the same with painting.

I agree on the basic premise that things are worth what people are willing to pay for them.  However, the question, though, isn't worth.  It's whether people overestimate their skill in photography.

It may be hard to reach a consensus among many great photographs the best among judges, because this is a subjective evaluation,.  But if you take an equal number of random photos out of flickr and add them to the mix, it will be easy for the panelist to come to agree on which half is worse.

That's because the expression that a great photograph has good composition and lighting, and captures a moment isn't just tripe.  Sure, there is a subjective element as to one's favorite photo, but there are many ways to objectively point out, for example, if a portrait is poorly taken.  If one is an budding photographer, there are many ways to self-evaluate each work and ask, "how could this photograph be better?"

It's also the job of a photographer to understand things like what emotions certain shapes confer, how to use perspective, how to use field skills to position oneself, how to choose interesting locations, or how to work with the subject to create something special.  The ability to do this sort of thing describes "skill" as a photographer, as in, the ability to consistently create great photographs.

9VIII

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #84 on: April 17, 2018, 03:20:46 PM »
As a schoolboy, I defended the motion in a debating contest that: "The value of a work of art becomes apparent only at its auction". The ensuing debate convinced me never to take part in such discussions again. So, to quote Sam Goldwyn, include me out.

I remember a long discussion as a student on this, and one of my contemporaries was insistent that the 'worth' of an art piece was influenced by the suffering that the artist had experienced in his life.
I was reminded of this recently when I read an article on how there is a lot of computer-generated music the people don't realise had no human intervention other than writing the program, and it is getting to a point where they can press a button for 'rock' or 'blues' or 'melancholy'.

I wonder how long before they reverse-engineer face/object recognition to do the same with painting.

I agree on the basic premise that things are worth what people are willing to pay for them.  However, the question, though, isn't worth.  It's whether people overestimate their skill in photography.

It may be hard to reach a consensus among many great photographs the best among judges, because this is a subjective evaluation,.  But if you take an equal number of random photos out of flickr and add them to the mix, it will be easy for the panelist to come to agree on which half is worse.

That's because the expression that a great photograph has good composition and lighting, and captures a moment isn't just tripe.  Sure, there is a subjective element as to one's favorite photo, but there are many ways to objectively point out, for example, if a portrait is poorly taken.  If one is an budding photographer, there are many ways to self-evaluate each work and ask, "how could this photograph be better?"

It's also the job of a photographer to understand things like what emotions certain shapes confer, how to use perspective, how to use field skills to position oneself, how to choose interesting locations, or how to work with the subject to create something special.  The ability to do this sort of thing describes "skill" as a photographer, as in, the ability to consistently create great photographs.

And none of that invalidates that the photographer is the final authority on what is good in their own photography.

9VIII

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2018, 03:53:56 PM »
As was suggested by another member a few pages back, the summary of the majority of the "debate" seen to this point is very simple:
Those who criticize the Original Post are incapable of understanding it because the basic premise violates the critic's fundamental understanding of the world.
Thus, the critics refuse to actually debate, and instead, even to the last post, re-phrase the whole thing in their own terms, or use blatant ignorance to cut the OP into pieces that they can refute on their own terms.

Almost all of the debate in ts thread is actually just people rejecting the original premise and trying to avoid discussing the real subject because actually debating the subject would put them in a state of cognitive dissonance.

Refusing to actually address the basic premise of an argument is one of the most common tactics used by people who just want to win a quick argument without bringing their own views into question.

These people are actually scared out of their wits to actually talk about the merits of artistic work outside of value in a communal setting, it's really interesting to see, and again it reinforces my premise that people often seek out "advice" unnecessarily just because they can't decide for themselves, or worse when people are not comfortable functioning fully autonomously for fear of criticism.
This mindset of fear is prolific and harmful to beginning photographers.

The Original Post still contains all the answers to every criticism that has been posted thus far (I'm not infallible so I won't deny I might have missed something, but if there is a valid criticism it wouldn't have been in one of the big puffed up posts).

Mikehit

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #86 on: April 17, 2018, 04:55:53 PM »


And none of that invalidates that the photographer is the final authority on what is good in their own photography.

And again you missed the point of the video.

Mikehit

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2018, 05:02:51 PM »

Refusing to actually address the basic premise of an argument is one of the most common tactics used by people who just want to win a quick argument without bringing their own views into question.

And the basic premise of you OP is precisely what we are debating. We are not simply winning a quick argument we are putting forward valid reasons why we believe your OP is flawed. You interpret that as us just wanting to 'win a quick argument' - in other words 'you are simply wanting to win a quick argument, therefore your points are invalid therefore my original assumptions are sound'. 

These people are actually scared out of their wits to actually talk about the merits of artistic work
I have no problem discussing the merits of artistic work. It is just that is not what the video was about.
You built a straw man then knocked it down - and when people point out you are tilting at the wrong windmill you accuse us of ignorance.

This mindset of fear is prolific and harmful to beginning photographers.

'fear'. Really?

The Original Post still contains all the answers to every criticism that has been posted thus far (I'm not infallible so I won't deny I might have missed something, but if there is a valid criticism it wouldn't have been in one of the big puffed up posts).

No it doesn't.
Your thread title bears no relationship to the video you aimed at criticising.
You concentrate on the artistic merits but that is not what the video is about
You reject any discussion about the technical merits of a photo - and that is what the video was about.

Perhaps you care to address those three points if you are intent on actually having a debate.

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2018, 05:02:51 PM »

unfocused

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #88 on: April 17, 2018, 06:06:37 PM »
Mikehit, Talys, YuengLinger and Canon Fan Boy,

We've all tried to inject some rational thought into this discussion. Let's face it, we are being thwarted by a single troll who has no interest in an intelligent exchange of ideas.

I'm ready to throw in the towel or alternatively, if any of you (or others on this forum) want to discuss the original topic intelligently, or even the nature of art, value of images, etc., I'm willing to join in that discussion with you, but I'm going to try as hard as I can to ignore the OP.

I do think the Dunning Kruger effect is kind of an interesting topic, although it seems like pretty much common sense. In photography, initial success is fairly easy to achieve. That's especially true today with the improvements in cameras and the conversion to digital.

People who develop a passion for photography generally seem to move into the other stages, where they become dissatisfied with their own work and strive to improve it. That's a lifelong journey and one that many of us on this forum seem to share (along with a heavy dose of GAS).

One thing I find interesting though is how frequently great artists peak at a fairly young age (not everyone, for sure). Ansel Adams (I can't find the exact quote) once basically admitted that his work in the 1930s was his best and everything after that he was repeating himself (I know I've butchered the quote but you get the idea.)

I think of many great artists (not just photographers) and find that a whole lot of people accomplish something great in their 20s or 30s and then don't really achieve much in the way of groundbreaking work after that. I wonder how that fits into this Dunning Kruger theory.

Anyway, I'm mostly trying to test the waters for an intelligent discussion, feeling that the rest of us should not feel trapped because the OP is incapable of engaging in an intelligent discussion.

Mikehit

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #89 on: April 17, 2018, 07:07:20 PM »

I think of many great artists (not just photographers) and find that a whole lot of people accomplish something great in their 20s or 30s and then don't really achieve much in the way of groundbreaking work after that. I wonder how that fits into this Dunning Kruger theory.


An interesting thought.
I think you need to separate 'creativity' from 'groundbreaking' but your comment still stands.

I wonder if there is a difference depending on when the person 'made their name'? I suspect that the ones who hit it young are  someone who has a different way of looking at the world that chimes with other people: they are then followed by people who move into that area, copy it, develop it and move on leaving the progenitor stuck with their way of seeing the world which starts to seem old hat. I guess it is not a lot different to a scientist wedded to the theory that made them famous or the aging grandparent stuck in the days of 'when things were better'.

Then you have the people who hit the big time later in life. I suspect these are the real 'creative types' in that they are absorbing form different areas before something synthesis in the brain and comes out as something 'new' - David Hockney springs to mind with his portraiture, then his photo portraits ending up with photo collages and then moving into set design.

Of course, some hit it young and keep on innovating (David Bowie in music springs to mind) but they are truly rare.

How does this fit into Duning-Kruger? I guess it is hard to generalise but the problem with success at art is that it relies so heavily on other peoples' opinion. There are many artists (painters, musicians, photogrpahers etc) who struggled for years and were only recognised when 'the world was ready for them' - their art is no different to what it before that point, but one person in the right place at the right time in the right national mood got them noticed.
Even the person with the singular world view that informs their 'greatest hit/s' (see above) may strive for years to improve their technical skill in other areas but never quite make it - the D-K effect is not the reason they never hit the same heights, but things just don't pan out like they did before and are forgotten as the one-hit wonder. Fame is capricious like that. 
I have read so many approaches from musicians - some bands are happy to keep playing their 'greatest hits' as a 'thank you' to the fans. Others grow to hate playing the same song time after time. Yet in both groups are those who manage to break new ground, others just don't develop.

I think the D-K effect is rather like the psychometric tests some companies are so fond of (Myers Briggs to name just one) - not really a guiding principle but a 'mental tool' to help analyse your own approach and performance and ask yourself how you can do better.

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Re: Dunning Kruger Effect: Why Insecure People Can’t Take Good Photos
« Reply #89 on: April 17, 2018, 07:07:20 PM »