May 25, 2018, 06:55:22 PM

Author Topic: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]  (Read 20821 times)

AvTvM

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #135 on: April 19, 2018, 01:39:22 PM »
There, I've had my morning chuckle.  It's mind boggling, guess it's called a "one track mind".  I have run into it in everyday life before. ;)

I'm a weirdo for sure.  90% or my shooting is over ISO 1000 and ranges from 400 - 800mm but that's dependent on many factors and could change.  However, is it reasonable to assume that I'd be happy with a dinky camera and nothing over 200mm - ouch.

Jack

i don't assume anything. And certainly not what focal lengths you are using. But ... I am of the opinion that tele users are strongly over-represented in this forum compared to total Canon system owners.

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #135 on: April 19, 2018, 01:39:22 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #136 on: April 19, 2018, 01:53:32 PM »
But ... I am of the opinion that tele users are strongly over-represented in this forum compared to total Canon system owners.

Tele users are clearly a minority, although it may be a reasonably large minority.  That's evident from the fact that Canon sells lenses and ILCs in an ~1.4:1 ratio, and most of the bodies sold are APS-C and include an 18-55mm kit lens.  But I'd also bet that a good chunk of the 0.4 additional lenses per body are 55-250mm and 75-300mm lenses sold in APS-C 2-lens kits, and that puts those users in the tele camp.
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Mikehit

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #137 on: April 19, 2018, 03:44:58 PM »
There, I've had my morning chuckle.  It's mind boggling, guess it's called a "one track mind".  I have run into it in everyday life before. ;)

I'm a weirdo for sure.  90% or my shooting is over ISO 1000 and ranges from 400 - 800mm but that's dependent on many factors and could change.  However, is it reasonable to assume that I'd be happy with a dinky camera and nothing over 200mm - ouch.

Jack

Unfortunately for you marketing, product placement and profits are not a democracy.
Sony has really developed its high profile on video and how the beat Canon. Canon has built its reputation over 20 years on sports and wildlife which are largely telephoto. Can you imagine the outburst if Canon said "here is a new flasghip camera. Sorry you sports/wildlife guys but we are compromising the things you like us for. But don; worry because it is mirrorless and we all know how important it is that we take out the mirror"

You only need look at the 6D2, which was and is a fine camera in its own right, how internet chatter and trolls are driving perception - the impact of that scenario on Canon would catastrophic.

The golden rule of marketing (of which I am sure you are totally ignorant) is that you ignore your core market at your peril. And your approach is probably the most basic example of that as you can imagine.

jayphotoworks

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #138 on: April 19, 2018, 03:54:11 PM »
Because Sony has no competition at the moment.  No other vendor offers FF mirrorless.  They also have reasonably good and quickly improving assortment of native FF lenses - the FE lenses.  They also made the details of the interface to their lenses available to third party lens manufacturers.  Sigma native FE lenses have just started coming.

However, Sony knows that the competition is coming. They even pre-empted the future competition by pricing the new Alpha 7 III relatively low <$2,000.  This camera on specs beats the comparable Canon offering 6D II in every department and by wide margins. 

Except autofocus speed, autofocus sensitivity in low light, battery life, and ergonomics with any lens in the 1kg+ size, weather sealing especially when carried inverted, autofocus performance in AF-S vs One-Shot, touch screen functionality, reversible/fully articulating screen, weather sealed remote trigger connector, durability and weather sensitivity of flash connector...

Sony is now about 6 years and 3 generations ahead of their competitors.

Which is why Canon outsells Sony in the APSC mirrorless market, and did so very shortly after entering that market, despite Sony's early presence, I guess.

For these reasons, I personally believe that Canon will not have a competitive general purpose FF mirrorless camera before 2024. 

That's as likely as POTUS45 winning the US Presidential election in 2024.  Or the French one.

But nice try!  I hope you like your Sony camera :)

We should give Sony some credit though. They went from creating awkward Cybershots (F707) using equally awkward memory sticks to being a competitive camera brand today that is exclusively compared against its more established peers at every corner. This isn't a company that got lazy and decided to ride out their brand name because they didn't really have one. Sony was once losing money in every segment other than their Sony Pictures and Playstation brands. In addition, I still remember a few years back a press release stated that Sony wanted to eventually be one of the top sensor manufacturers in the world. I'm sure they've achieved a large part of that today. That same tech is now making its way into their best cameras and is why you are seeing bodies like the A9. 10 years ago, would you even expect Sony to actually be competitive with today's Nikon and Canon much less potentially be slightly ahead of them from a innovation and tech perspective?

Today, shooting the newest Sony bodies feels more or less equal to shooting with a high end DSLR. There is also more or less the same type of glass that most people would want including the standard 2.8 zoom trifecta set and a few fast primes. I definitely would not feel that way just 1 or 2 generations back shooting with an A7/A7II.




Mikehit

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #139 on: April 19, 2018, 04:41:25 PM »

We should give Sony some credit though. They went from creating awkward Cybershots (F707) using equally awkward memory sticks to being a competitive camera brand today that is exclusively compared against its more established peers at every corner. This isn't a company that got lazy and decided to ride out their brand name because they didn't really have one. Sony was once losing money in every segment other than their Sony Pictures and Playstation brands. In addition, I still remember a few years back a press release stated that Sony wanted to eventually be one of the top sensor manufacturers in the world. I'm sure they've achieved a large part of that today. That same tech is now making its way into their best cameras and is why you are seeing bodies like the A9. 10 years ago, would you even expect Sony to actually be competitive with today's Nikon and Canon much less potentially be slightly ahead of them from a innovation and tech perspective?

Today, shooting the newest Sony bodies feels more or less equal to shooting with a high end DSLR. There is also more or less the same type of glass that most people would want including the standard 2.8 zoom trifecta set and a few fast primes. I definitely would not feel that way just 1 or 2 generations back shooting with an A7/A7II.

I agree.
Sony moved into mirrorless as a pretty much last ditch attempt to stay in the market - they knew they had these great sensors and the decision to move into mirrorless was the only real segment left to them and Panasonic showed how it could be done. Once the 7 series took off they took it from there and have done a decent job.
I have only used MFT, not Sony, but from reviews by even avid Sony users, I think saying   "shooting the newest Sony bodies feels more or less equal to shooting with a high end DSLR" is still pushing it. The issue is not so much 'shooting mirrorless' as 'shooting Sony' in that Sony ergonomics still have some way to go to match the experience CaNikon have in understanding what makes a tool enjoyable to use.

vscd

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #140 on: April 19, 2018, 06:28:14 PM »
Sony not even has a lossless RAW or the possibilty to shoot RAW together with very fine JPG. No useable weathersealing. No ergonomics. Expensive lenses. What exactly was the good thing? A good sensor... admittedly. But that's all.
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bhf3737

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #141 on: April 19, 2018, 06:40:27 PM »
Today, shooting the newest Sony bodies feels more or less equal to shooting with a high end DSLR. There is also more or less the same type of glass that most people would want including the standard 2.8 zoom trifecta set and a few fast primes. I definitely would not feel that way just 1 or 2 generations back shooting with an A7/A7II.
I guess "more or less equal" does not mean "equal". That is why in math and statistics we have "equal" and "significantly different" and nothing in between.
Precisely speaking, at the end of the day, we would like to conclude that there is no "significant difference" between a Sony body and a high end DSLR in terms features such as technology, build, user experience, price and end product they produce (i.e. pictures). But even if we get there, we will have yet another body capable of doing things alongside the others that are doing it for 20-30 years!! 
On the contrary, bloggers and marketing guys want to promote mirrorless as a significantly different technology, user experience, etc.,  which is currently groundless and is not based on any valid evidence.

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #141 on: April 19, 2018, 06:40:27 PM »

Talys

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #142 on: April 19, 2018, 07:46:55 PM »
We should give Sony some credit though. They went from creating awkward Cybershots (F707) using equally awkward memory sticks to being a competitive camera brand today that is exclusively compared against its more established peers at every corner. This isn't a company that got lazy and decided to ride out their brand name because they didn't really have one. Sony was once losing money in every segment other than their Sony Pictures and Playstation brands.

Well, they also did that through the purchase of Konica Minolta, in 2006.  But I give them lots of credit for pioneering the full frame mirrorless market.  I think the A7R3, A73, and A9 are all pretty nice cameras.  I would be happy to own one.

However, I wouldn't want to replace my Canon DSLR with one, because really, the only thing I think they do better for me is manual focus magnification in the EVF and crop mode in EVF.  Those things, for me, are huge, actually.  But either don't care or dislike most of the other features that set mirrorless apart, and I find that I still vastly prefer an optical viewfinder in most cases, and the autofocus and ergonomic shortcomings still put DSLRs (significantly) ahead for me.

Today, shooting the newest Sony bodies feels more or less equal to shooting with a high end DSLR. There is also more or less the same type of glass that most people would want including the standard 2.8 zoom trifecta set and a few fast primes. I definitely would not feel that way just 1 or 2 generations back shooting with an A7/A7II.

It's a little less than more, though, for me.

There are many, many things I prefer about a DSLR, not the least of which is an optical viewfinder that always accurately reflects what's in front of me and consumes (nearly) no power even when you stare down it for hours.  Also, Sony mirrorless cameras (and Canon EFM) are all focus-by-wire, which I still find vastly inferior to top-end L's for manual focus.

However, I am very envious of the manual focus magnification primarily because it ensures that the right part of a photo is in focus, even when the depth of field is extremely shallow. 

Specifically with Sony, I find the price of their good GM lenses very high, and the quality of their lower end lenses a little lacking.  For example, I was able to spend some time with the 24-105/4, which seems like a great lens, but had an absurd amount of vingetting when quite wide.  I'd be ok with that on a $600 lens, but it's a $1,300 lens.

I think that Sony's will get better.  I think Canon M-series APSC's are actually a more usable camera, though primarily, for me, that is because of DPAF.  I look forward to Canon's FF mirrorless, and will probably buy one, though frankly, it will just be GAS.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 07:51:22 PM by Talys »

slclick

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #143 on: April 19, 2018, 09:23:58 PM »
The manual focus magnification is a great things, love it in my M5. It makes using specialty lenses I have left to the wayside such as Lensbabys fun again for worsening eyes.
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Chris Jankowski

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #144 on: April 20, 2018, 04:43:59 AM »
Sony not even has a lossless RAW or the possibilty to shoot RAW together with very fine JPG. No useable weathersealing. No ergonomics. Expensive lenses. What exactly was the good thing? A good sensor... admittedly. But that's all.
Sony does offer completely lossless RAW.  They introduced it about a year ago, as the customers asked for it.  However, most users found out that they have not been losing anything noticeable with the compressed RAW and the size of files is much smaller. Lossless RAW is just another tick off point.

tron

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #145 on: April 20, 2018, 05:10:48 AM »
Sony not even has a lossless RAW or the possibilty to shoot RAW together with very fine JPG. No useable weathersealing. No ergonomics. Expensive lenses. What exactly was the good thing? A good sensor... admittedly. But that's all.
Sony does offer completely lossless RAW.  They introduced it about a year ago, as the customers asked for it.  However, most users found out that they have not been losing anything noticeable with the compressed RAW and the size of files is much smaller. Lossless RAW is just another tick off point.
They don't offer the obvious Canon does: Lossless compressed RAW!

scyrene

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #146 on: April 20, 2018, 08:30:03 AM »
I'm a weirdo for sure.  90% or my shooting is over ISO 1000 and ranges from 400 - 800mm but that's dependent on many factors and could change.

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jayphotoworks

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #147 on: April 20, 2018, 09:24:26 AM »
Today, shooting the newest Sony bodies feels more or less equal to shooting with a high end DSLR. There is also more or less the same type of glass that most people would want including the standard 2.8 zoom trifecta set and a few fast primes. I definitely would not feel that way just 1 or 2 generations back shooting with an A7/A7II.
I guess "more or less equal" does not mean "equal". That is why in math and statistics we have "equal" and "significantly different" and nothing in between.
Precisely speaking, at the end of the day, we would like to conclude that there is no "significant difference" between a Sony body and a high end DSLR in terms features such as technology, build, user experience, price and end product they produce (i.e. pictures). But even if we get there, we will have yet another body capable of doing things alongside the others that are doing it for 20-30 years!! 
On the contrary, bloggers and marketing guys want to promote mirrorless as a significantly different technology, user experience, etc.,  which is currently groundless and is not based on any valid evidence.

I have to agree that the more or less equal really depends on what you shoot. For myself, the major compromise I had to live with shooting on Canon was the video feature-set or lack thereof. For most still shooters, I can fully understand why they would view Canon as the best solution. For hybrid or video work, I'm not so sure. Sony's feature set and ergonomics for video acquisition far outpace any of Canon's non-cinema line offerings. I mentioned all of these before, but the latest A7R3 and A7III have separate button configuration for stills vs video. Sony understands that many of the people buying their videos have specific video requirements and has catered the camera ergonomically to be dual-purpose, not just a stills camera with some video sprinkled on top. This extends to the intelligent hotshoe that has pins for various audio inputs like the XLR kit, etc. without separate cables. At the same time, they also understand the "people that need serious video buy a real video camera" mantra, by not throwing in a high bit-rate codec that burns through memory cards and requires transcoding to edit.

My hope is that the upcoming mirrorless bodies from Canon address some of these things. The fact the M50 has DPAF and 4K, although not together, is a good sign for things to come from an upcoming flagship from Canon. In addition, Nikon and Canon are both jumping into mirrorless this year, either as a reaction from Sony's push into this space or simply because they see the evolution of cameras being mirrorless rather than DSLRs. Once all of the manufacturers are more or less on the same playing field within mirrorless and we actually start to see the decline of traditional DSLRs, I feel the real innovation can start. Then it is simply a matter of what they put into the silicon whether that be AI, machine learning or computational photography.







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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #147 on: April 20, 2018, 09:24:26 AM »

Talys

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #148 on: April 20, 2018, 11:03:17 AM »
Today, shooting the newest Sony bodies feels more or less equal to shooting with a high end DSLR. There is also more or less the same type of glass that most people would want including the standard 2.8 zoom trifecta set and a few fast primes. I definitely would not feel that way just 1 or 2 generations back shooting with an A7/A7II.
I guess "more or less equal" does not mean "equal". That is why in math and statistics we have "equal" and "significantly different" and nothing in between.
Precisely speaking, at the end of the day, we would like to conclude that there is no "significant difference" between a Sony body and a high end DSLR in terms features such as technology, build, user experience, price and end product they produce (i.e. pictures). But even if we get there, we will have yet another body capable of doing things alongside the others that are doing it for 20-30 years!! 
On the contrary, bloggers and marketing guys want to promote mirrorless as a significantly different technology, user experience, etc.,  which is currently groundless and is not based on any valid evidence.

I have to agree that the more or less equal really depends on what you shoot. For myself, the major compromise I had to live with shooting on Canon was the video feature-set or lack thereof. For most still shooters, I can fully understand why they would view Canon as the best solution. For hybrid or video work, I'm not so sure. Sony's feature set and ergonomics for video acquisition far outpace any of Canon's non-cinema line offerings. I mentioned all of these before, but the latest A7R3 and A7III have separate button configuration for stills vs video. Sony understands that many of the people buying their videos have specific video requirements and has catered the camera ergonomically to be dual-purpose, not just a stills camera with some video sprinkled on top. This extends to the intelligent hotshoe that has pins for various audio inputs like the XLR kit, etc. without separate cables. At the same time, they also understand the "people that need serious video buy a real video camera" mantra, by not throwing in a high bit-rate codec that burns through memory cards and requires transcoding to edit.

My hope is that the upcoming mirrorless bodies from Canon address some of these things. The fact the M50 has DPAF and 4K, although not together, is a good sign for things to come from an upcoming flagship from Canon. In addition, Nikon and Canon are both jumping into mirrorless this year, either as a reaction from Sony's push into this space or simply because they see the evolution of cameras being mirrorless rather than DSLRs. Once all of the manufacturers are more or less on the same playing field within mirrorless and we actually start to see the decline of traditional DSLRs, I feel the real innovation can start. Then it is simply a matter of what they put into the silicon whether that be AI, machine learning or computational photography.

That's a pretty good point.  As a person who has shot less than 9 videos since DSLRs could record videos, I could care less if they removed video from my cameras entirely, but even being uninterested in those features, I can see how the Sony appears to have many more video-centric features.  And anyways, a viewfinder may be a better way to shoot, and you can't do that with an OVF while recording video, obviously.

All that said, I really dislike the look of cheaply made Sony home videos (by other people) that have autofocus hunting where they haven't edited it out.

Chris Jankowski

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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #149 on: April 23, 2018, 02:52:12 PM »
The DPReview has just published comprehensive and detailed review of Sony a7 III:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-a7-iii-review

This is well worth reading to know what is the current state of the aart in prosumer FF mirrorless.

It was surprising to me to find how far Sony has moved in the 5 years since the release of their first FF mirrorless - a7.

If Canon can deliver an FF mirror less body with:

- at least 80% of the Sony a7 III features
- at a comparable price
- with good provisions for reliable use of EF lenses
- no major screw ups or artificially removed functionality
- and till the end of 2019

then I'll buy such body to supplement my DSLR.


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Re: Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]
« Reply #149 on: April 23, 2018, 02:52:12 PM »