June 23, 2018, 06:06:52 PM

Author Topic: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?  (Read 28500 times)

Talys

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Not by much if the Sony G master lenses are any indication.  Those lenses are similar in size/weight to their EF counterparts.  If you want less intrusive, use a smaller format (i.e. EOS M) with smaller-apertured lenses.

Most people who shoot long hours with the A7/A9 also use a grip.  A Sony with a grip and a 2.8 zoom is the same size as a DSLR.

If you want to be unobtrusive, but have an ILC, there's already some perfect solutions -- go buy a Canon M5 or Sony A6500.

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Random Orbits

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Not by much if the Sony G master lenses are any indication.  Those lenses are similar in size/weight to their EF counterparts.  If you want less intrusive, use a smaller format (i.e. EOS M) with smaller-apertured lenses.

Most people who shoot long hours with the A7/A9 also use a grip.  A Sony with a grip and a 2.8 zoom is the same size as a DSLR.

If you want to be unobtrusive, but have an ILC, there's already some perfect solutions -- go buy a Canon M5 or Sony A6500.

Hmm... isn't that what I was implying?

fullstop

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canon undestands the size/weight issue very well. that's why they made the EOS M system compact, light, decent and good bang for the buck.

that's why they will also make *most of* the upcoming FF mirrorless system very compact. For the rather small minority/market niche of users who prefer large bodies, Canon will also haĆ¼pily sell 1 expensive big "flagship brick" and fat battery grips for every milc body, just as they do for DSLRs of almost any size from rebel to 5d series. canon will also continue to make and sell all EF lenses that would not profit sizewise from a shorter FFD mirrorless mount. however, the FF mirrorless cameras will all come with new, "slim mount" plus a simple adapter for full backwards compatibility with EF glass ...FD adapters will likely not be made by canon, but come from 3rd party makers.

mirrorless allows for both: smaller, yet fully competent gear desirable to most users as well as large bricks for the few who prefer it that way. Canon will happily cater to both groups. myself i am looking forward to very compact FF sensored cameras and fully FF capable, moderately fast compact primes and f/4 zooms in the most frequently used focal length range. that way i only need to carry along big, heavy gear when i really need it and when it does not matter much (planned shootings, studio, tripod-based work, eg). 90% of the time i can go small and light. oh yes!

ahsanford

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Most people who shoot long hours with the A7/A9 also use a grip.  A Sony with a grip and a 2.8 zoom is the same size as a DSLR.
Yes on the lens but not on the body size -- not at all. The Sony vert grip doesn't make the standard integral grip any chunkier or further from the mount.  It just gives you room for your pinkie finger in the front and the base of your thumb / CMC joint.  It's still a tiny body.

So: no.  The A7/A9 is not the same size as any FF DSLR that Canon or Nikon currently sell.  It is smaller in a bad way (IMHO) that leaves no room for your fingers against the barrel of a pro lens.  I will always cite the A7 pic from Bryan Carnathan (below), which highlights the problem. 

Sony might make very small finger recess changes in the grips over time, but the basic grip size and spacing from the mount remains terribly problematic for the person slinging f/2.8 zooms all day.

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Tugela

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I think it is almost certain that their first FF camera will be spun as an enthusiast camera, not as a professional camera. It is just not going to be competitive enough with the Sony cameras for anything else.

It is probably going to be in D6 territory on their first attemp and they will see how things go from there.

BillB

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I think it is almost certain that their first FF camera will be spun as an enthusiast camera, not as a professional camera. It is just not going to be competitive enough with the Sony cameras for anything else.

It is probably going to be in D6 territory on their first attemp and they will see how things go from there.

At the pro level, a Canon mirrorless would have to compete with some pretty good Canon DSLR's as well.

neuroanatomist

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I think it is almost certain that their first FF camera will be spun as an enthusiast camera, not as a professional camera. It is just not going to be competitive enough with the Sony cameras for anything else.

It is probably going to be in D6 territory on their first attemp and they will see how things go from there.

It will likely be aimed at enthusiasts because that's a very profitable segment. 

Since Canon FF ILCs continue to outsell Sony FF ILCs, and Canon APS-C MILCs outsell Sony APS-C MILCs, the idea that Canon can't compete with Sony in any market segment they choose to enter is not supported by the available facts.  But then, making statements unsupported by facts is the one area in which you've amply demonstrated your expertise.
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ahsanford

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I think it is almost certain that their first FF camera will be spun as an enthusiast camera, not as a professional camera. It is just not going to be competitive enough with the Sony cameras for anything else.

Enthusiast, pro, whatever:  at whatever level they choose to come in, they will be underspec'd to Sony.  That's a near certainty.

But they aren't trying to sell this to the general market.  The first 2-3 years of this thing being out (in whatever models/sizes/specs they sell) will be aimed squarely at existing Canon users.

So I think it just needs to roughly match the specs of the SLR segment it is 'claimed' to be.   It doesn't have to have IBIS, eye AF, etc.  It just needs to be a Canon mirrorless setup that natively uses Canon glass, speedlites, and accessories and has familiar Canon controls.  As EOS M has shown, this approach will sell just fine.

- A

Talys

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Not by much if the Sony G master lenses are any indication.  Those lenses are similar in size/weight to their EF counterparts.  If you want less intrusive, use a smaller format (i.e. EOS M) with smaller-apertured lenses.

Most people who shoot long hours with the A7/A9 also use a grip.  A Sony with a grip and a 2.8 zoom is the same size as a DSLR.

If you want to be unobtrusive, but have an ILC, there's already some perfect solutions -- go buy a Canon M5 or Sony A6500.

Hmm... isn't that what I was implying?

I hope so... I was agreeing with you :)

Mikehit

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I think it is almost certain that their first FF camera will be spun as an enthusiast camera, not as a professional camera. It is just not going to be competitive enough with the Sony cameras for anything else.

Enthusiast, pro, whatever:  at whatever level they choose to come in, they will be underspec'd to Sony.  That's a near certainty.

But they aren't trying to sell this to the general market.  The first 2-3 years of this thing being out (in whatever models/sizes/specs they sell) will be aimed squarely at existing Canon users.

So I think it just needs to roughly match the specs of the SLR segment it is 'claimed' to be.   It doesn't have to have IBIS, eye AF, etc.  It just needs to be a Canon mirrorless setup that natively uses Canon glass, speedlites, and accessories and has familiar Canon controls.  As EOS M has shown, this approach will sell just fine.

- A

Yep. All they need to do is release a mirrorless to bring FF mirrorless to Canon World. As long as it quietens criticism of Canon and secondly make people think a bit harder about ditching in favour of Sony. The latest M series have been fairly well received, so the M series with a larger sensor (body size and mount is not really relevant here) would, I think, be a very good start.
But of course all the complainers will do is move the goal posts so they can continue complain about Canon's lack of development.

Talys

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I think it is almost certain that their first FF camera will be spun as an enthusiast camera, not as a professional camera. It is just not going to be competitive enough with the Sony cameras for anything else.

Enthusiast, pro, whatever:  at whatever level they choose to come in, they will be underspec'd to Sony.  That's a near certainty.

But they aren't trying to sell this to the general market.  The first 2-3 years of this thing being out (in whatever models/sizes/specs they sell) will be aimed squarely at existing Canon users.

So I think it just needs to roughly match the specs of the SLR segment it is 'claimed' to be.   It doesn't have to have IBIS, eye AF, etc.  It just needs to be a Canon mirrorless setup that natively uses Canon glass, speedlites, and accessories and has familiar Canon controls.  As EOS M has shown, this approach will sell just fine.

- A

Yep. All they need to do is release a mirrorless to bring FF mirrorless to Canon World. As long as it quietens criticism of Canon and secondly make people think a bit harder about ditching in favour of Sony. The latest M series have been fairly well received, so the M series with a larger sensor (body size and mount is not really relevant here) would, I think, be a very good start.
But of course all the complainers will do is move the goal posts so they can continue complain about Canon's lack of development.

There's autofocus speed.  If you compare current Canon mirrorless vs Sony, AF speed is far superior, with it being particularly noticeable in lower light and at longer telephoto ranges.  And, it's much smoother, too.


ahsanford

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Yep. All they need to do is release a mirrorless to bring FF mirrorless to Canon World. As long as it quietens criticism of Canon and secondly make people think a bit harder about ditching in favour of Sony. The latest M series have been fairly well received, so the M series with a larger sensor (body size and mount is not really relevant here) would, I think, be a very good start.
But of course all the complainers will do is move the goal posts so they can continue complain about Canon's lack of development.

Yeah.  The naysayers will continue to (fairly) point out all the tech-per-dollar Sony is offering, but Sony has to commit to offering more than Canon in each body offering because (a) they lack the platform scale/benefits/upsides of EF and (b) they are chasing the market leader.

There will come a day where Sony's built up supporting ecosystem of stuff, ergonomics, reliability, service rivals Canon.  I'm guessing that's when Canon might start to sweat losing business and might move to market-parity body-spec-wise.  But that's going to be a while.

- A

BillB

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I think it is almost certain that their first FF camera will be spun as an enthusiast camera, not as a professional camera. It is just not going to be competitive enough with the Sony cameras for anything else.

Enthusiast, pro, whatever:  at whatever level they choose to come in, they will be underspec'd to Sony.  That's a near certainty.

But they aren't trying to sell this to the general market.  The first 2-3 years of this thing being out (in whatever models/sizes/specs they sell) will be aimed squarely at existing Canon users.

So I think it just needs to roughly match the specs of the SLR segment it is 'claimed' to be.   It doesn't have to have IBIS, eye AF, etc.  It just needs to be a Canon mirrorless setup that natively uses Canon glass, speedlites, and accessories and has familiar Canon controls.  As EOS M has shown, this approach will sell just fine.

- A

Yep. All they need to do is release a mirrorless to bring FF mirrorless to Canon World. As long as it quietens criticism of Canon and secondly make people think a bit harder about ditching in favour of Sony. The latest M series have been fairly well received, so the M series with a larger sensor (body size and mount is not really relevant here) would, I think, be a very good start.
But of course all the complainers will do is move the goal posts so they can continue complain about Canon's lack of development.

There's autofocus speed.  If you compare current Canon mirrorless vs Sony, AF speed is far superior, with it being particularly noticeable in lower light and at longer telephoto ranges.  And, it's much smoother, too.

It's not that hard to come out ahead in the spec fights if your get to cherry pick your specs.  If you get to make up the rules and to keep score, it's pretty easy to win.  Especially if you get to use imaginary magic numbers.

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Talys

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It's not that hard to come out ahead in the spec fights if your get to cherry pick your specs.  If you get to make up the rules and to keep score, it's pretty easy to win.  Especially if you get to use imaginary magic numbers.

lol... so true.  What a weird world we live in, now.  It's like the photography version of "Fake News".  Someone will surely give you numbers that you like!



Yeah.  The naysayers will continue to (fairly) point out all the tech-per-dollar Sony is offering...

I have regretted almost every major purchase that I've ever made mostly on the basis of specs-per-dollar.

Usually, specs-per-dollar ends up being a way for me to justify spending less money; and usually, I end up getting what I pay for!  :)

dak723

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If you offer a high quality, reliable product, you don't need to impress with lots of specs.  This is what Canon does.

If you offer a lower quality product, you need to impress with more specs.  This is what Sony does.

In my opinion, of course.  But it is funny how many suckers fall for the specs. ;D

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