June 20, 2018, 04:08:22 AM

Author Topic: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?  (Read 26830 times)

Durf

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #360 on: June 11, 2018, 05:53:48 PM »
It is true that Canon has not released a FF mirrorless, but I wonder how far behind Sony Canon really is.  Is Canon really at square one?  One question is how much Canon has learned in developing its aps-c mirrorless cameras that has been helpful to its FF mirrorless development.  Another question is how relevant the Liveview capabilities of the Canon FF frame cameras have been to the FF mirrorless development.  Does Canon really have to do much more than swap out the mirror of a 5DIV for an EVF?

I suspect both Nikon and Canon will shake things up a bit with Sony's momentum within the next 12 months or so.

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #360 on: June 11, 2018, 05:53:48 PM »

Mikehit

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #361 on: June 11, 2018, 06:02:53 PM »
...Canon is unlikely to hit this level on the first iteration so they will probably be pragmatic and be happy initially with something to make the statement "we can do it too"...

I've seen this reasoning a lot on this forum and I don't understand it. Why would Canon not want to hit it out of the park on its first attempt? And, why couldn't they?

They certainly have the resource available. And they've no doubt been researching this for years. I'm not suggesting that their first full frame mirrorless with be the perfect body for everyone. There are some baked-in decisions that will be guaranteed to disappoint no matter what they do (lens mount for example). But, I find it very unlikely they will unveil a "beta" version and in effect say, "we'll do better next time."

The reason I am a bit sceptical is that there is a difference between designing a product and it working out as you intended in the real world.
Added to this, Canon is very cautious about releasing new technology - it seems to me that if there is any doubt they prefer to hold back a bit until something works with a high degree of confidence. Their main marketing drive is making cameras that professionals use and as a soldier says, a rifle that works intermittently is worse than one that does not work at all and I think that thinking has got into Canon's DNA.
Yes, the M series started off a bit of a lemon but that was aimed squarely at the lower end of the market, but I get the idea that with their first FF mirrorless they want to aim more upmarket and that means it must work.

3kramd5

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #362 on: June 11, 2018, 07:11:32 PM »
...Canon is unlikely to hit this level on the first iteration so they will probably be pragmatic and be happy initially with something to make the statement "we can do it too"...

I've seen this reasoning a lot on this forum and I don't understand it. Why would Canon not want to hit it out of the park on its first attempt? And, why couldn't they?

They certainly have the resource available. And they've no doubt been researching this for years. I'm not suggesting that their first full frame mirrorless with be the perfect body for everyone. There are some baked-in decisions that will be guaranteed to disappoint no matter what they do (lens mount for example). But, I find it very unlikely they will unveil a "beta" version and in effect say, "we'll do better next time."

The reason I am a bit sceptical is that there is a difference between designing a product and it working out as you intended in the real world.
Added to this, Canon is very cautious about releasing new technology - it seems to me that if there is any doubt they prefer to hold back a bit until something works with a high degree of confidence. Their main marketing drive is making cameras that professionals use and as a soldier says, a rifle that works intermittently is worse than one that does not work at all and I think that thinking has got into Canon's DNA.
Yes, the M series started off a bit of a lemon but that was aimed squarely at the lower end of the market, but I get the idea that with their first FF mirrorless they want to aim more upmarket and that means it must work.

I get that, but canon does not need any new to them technology. They have arguably the best on sensor auto ficus system; they know how to make an EVF. What else is there really? Hell if they want to do something special, they know how to make a global shutter too.

I expect them to do the smart thing, which is to go up to the widest market they can capture. That’s not the high end, and it won’t be a spec sheet warrior, but there is no reason to assume it won’t be well thought out and put together.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 07:16:39 PM by 3kramd5 »

BillB

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #363 on: June 11, 2018, 09:11:45 PM »
...Canon is unlikely to hit this level on the first iteration so they will probably be pragmatic and be happy initially with something to make the statement "we can do it too"...

I've seen this reasoning a lot on this forum and I don't understand it. Why would Canon not want to hit it out of the park on its first attempt? And, why couldn't they?

They certainly have the resource available. And they've no doubt been researching this for years. I'm not suggesting that their first full frame mirrorless with be the perfect body for everyone. There are some baked-in decisions that will be guaranteed to disappoint no matter what they do (lens mount for example). But, I find it very unlikely they will unveil a "beta" version and in effect say, "we'll do better next time."

The reason I am a bit sceptical is that there is a difference between designing a product and it working out as you intended in the real world.
Added to this, Canon is very cautious about releasing new technology - it seems to me that if there is any doubt they prefer to hold back a bit until something works with a high degree of confidence. Their main marketing drive is making cameras that professionals use and as a soldier says, a rifle that works intermittently is worse than one that does not work at all and I think that thinking has got into Canon's DNA.
Yes, the M series started off a bit of a lemon but that was aimed squarely at the lower end of the market, but I get the idea that with their first FF mirrorless they want to aim more upmarket and that means it must work.

I get that, but canon does not need any new to them technology. They have arguably the best on sensor auto ficus system; they know how to make an EVF. What else is there really? Hell if they want to do something special, they know how to make a global shutter too.

I expect them to do the smart thing, which is to go up to the widest market they can capture. That’s not the high end, and it won’t be a spec sheet warrior, but there is no reason to assume it won’t be well thought out and put together.

They also have software/firmware pretty well sorted out from their Liveview in the DSLRs as well  as the M cameras.

3kramd5

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #364 on: June 11, 2018, 09:44:15 PM »
...Canon is unlikely to hit this level on the first iteration so they will probably be pragmatic and be happy initially with something to make the statement "we can do it too"...

I've seen this reasoning a lot on this forum and I don't understand it. Why would Canon not want to hit it out of the park on its first attempt? And, why couldn't they?

They certainly have the resource available. And they've no doubt been researching this for years. I'm not suggesting that their first full frame mirrorless with be the perfect body for everyone. There are some baked-in decisions that will be guaranteed to disappoint no matter what they do (lens mount for example). But, I find it very unlikely they will unveil a "beta" version and in effect say, "we'll do better next time."

The reason I am a bit sceptical is that there is a difference between designing a product and it working out as you intended in the real world.
Added to this, Canon is very cautious about releasing new technology - it seems to me that if there is any doubt they prefer to hold back a bit until something works with a high degree of confidence. Their main marketing drive is making cameras that professionals use and as a soldier says, a rifle that works intermittently is worse than one that does not work at all and I think that thinking has got into Canon's DNA.
Yes, the M series started off a bit of a lemon but that was aimed squarely at the lower end of the market, but I get the idea that with their first FF mirrorless they want to aim more upmarket and that means it must work.

I get that, but canon does not need any new to them technology. They have arguably the best on sensor auto ficus system; they know how to make an EVF. What else is there really? Hell if they want to do something special, they know how to make a global shutter too.

I expect them to do the smart thing, which is to go up to the widest market they can capture. That’s not the high end, and it won’t be a spec sheet warrior, but there is no reason to assume it won’t be well thought out and put together.

They also have software/firmware pretty well sorted out from their Liveview in the DSLRs as well  as the M cameras.

Unless they reuse a processor, it will need new firmware.

fullstop

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #365 on: June 12, 2018, 01:54:02 AM »
They also have software/firmware pretty well sorted out from their Liveview in the DSLRs as well  as the M cameras.

oh yes, best-in-class Canon Powershot firmware is ready to rule them all! ;-)

and powerful LP-E12 battteries are also piled up in a Canon warehouse. Everything ready for Canon MILC 1M Mk. I!
Mark II may even come with LP-E17 battery and - most exciting - a new paint job in space silver! oh yes! and come 2025, Mark III will really knock it out of the park with something Canon Research calls "Direct Print button"!  Unfortunately i cannot say more because of NDA.

only this: Sony, start shaking in your boots!

oops, SCNR :-)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 01:57:59 AM by fullstop »

fullstop

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #366 on: June 12, 2018, 02:05:06 AM »
meanwhile Samyang has announced the next AF lens for Sony FF mirrorless. tiny, optically decent, less than 100 grams and very affordable.

that's how i like 'em, slim and trim!



https://www.dpreview.com/news/4636663751/samyang-rokinon-24mm-f28-lens-official

Samyang can. Canon asleep at the wheel.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 02:07:14 AM by fullstop »

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #366 on: June 12, 2018, 02:05:06 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #367 on: June 12, 2018, 07:12:35 AM »
only this: Sony, start shaking in your boots!

True. Just as a broken analog clock is right twice a day, on rare occasions you say something correct.

Sony tried and failed to compete with Canon/Nikon in the dSLR segment, and went to MILCs because that's where Canon and Nikon weren't. When Canon launched APS-C mirrorless, in a few short years they beat out all Sony's MILC competitors and most Sony MILC models in sales/market share.  Sony 'dominates' FF MILC because their only competition is Leica (and Canon still sells more FF ILCs than Sony).  So yes, with Canon apparently poised to enter the FF MILC market, and Nikon reportedly re-entering the MILC market (with something larger than a P&S sensor), Sony is definitely shaking in their dress shoes. 
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rrcphoto

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #368 on: June 14, 2018, 10:52:56 AM »
It is true that Canon has not released a FF mirrorless, but I wonder how far behind Sony Canon really is.  Is Canon really at square one?  One question is how much Canon has learned in developing its aps-c mirrorless cameras that has been helpful to its FF mirrorless development.  Another question is how relevant the Liveview capabilities of the Canon FF frame cameras have been to the FF mirrorless development.  Does Canon really have to do much more than swap out the mirror of a 5DIV for an EVF?

people tend to forget this. canon has been prototyping mirrorless in it's EF mount since the canon 40D and they got really serious with it with the 70D, the 5D Mark II followed suit on full frame.

canon isn't "generations behind" because they have been doing mirrorless for generations on their DSLR's.

the only caveat is the firmware. the EOS firmware has not kept pace with the Powershot firmware in higher end mirrorless features. That's the main challenge for Canon when it comes to mirrorless.

however for all we know, a full frame mirrorless could be made using the powershot firmware - there's nothing stopping it.

you rip out a mirror, af assembly, metering assembly and penta prism and add in an EVF, and voila. you have an EF mirrorless from any of canon's latest generation of DSLR's.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 11:01:41 AM by rrcphoto »

fullstop

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #369 on: June 14, 2018, 01:15:37 PM »
however for all we know, a full frame mirrorless could be made using the powershot firmware - there's nothing stopping it.

well i keep fingers crossed it will not happen on Canon FF mirrorless cameras. ;-)

rrcphoto

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #370 on: June 14, 2018, 05:25:34 PM »
however for all we know, a full frame mirrorless could be made using the powershot firmware - there's nothing stopping it.

well i keep fingers crossed it will not happen on Canon FF mirrorless cameras. ;-)

the powershot firmware is in it's 4th generation. You should hope it is.

DSLR's don't even have focus peaking let alone half the features that got added to the powershot firmware over it's 4 generations.

fullstop

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #371 on: June 14, 2018, 10:11:26 PM »
4 generations of cow dung is still cow dung.   ;D

TAF

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #372 on: June 18, 2018, 11:14:42 PM »
It is true that Canon has not released a FF mirrorless, but I wonder how far behind Sony Canon really is.  Is Canon really at square one?  One question is how much Canon has learned in developing its aps-c mirrorless cameras that has been helpful to its FF mirrorless development.  Another question is how relevant the Liveview capabilities of the Canon FF frame cameras have been to the FF mirrorless development.  Does Canon really have to do much more than swap out the mirror of a 5DIV for an EVF?

No, not really.  One could argue that the M5 checked off the two biggest missing pieces we had been waiting for (except for 4K) in a proper mirrorless rig:  DPAF + integral EVF.

I'm sure there are real world implementation challenges when you try to scale an M5 up to FF terms (power consumption with an FF sensor that is always effectively in LiveView, cooling during 4K if they go with at tiny body, etc.) but there are no major components or subsystems in FF mirrorless that Canon can't cobble together from their combined M5 + FF SLR experience.  (Right?) 

- A

Quite correct; they have all the parts in the parts bin.  I wonder why they are taking so long.

The heat dissipation issue is why the first FF mirrorless will not be some tiny pocket camera.

Which pleases me (BTW), since tiny is not what I am looking for.


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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #372 on: June 18, 2018, 11:14:42 PM »

BillB

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #373 on: June 19, 2018, 07:27:59 AM »
It is true that Canon has not released a FF mirrorless, but I wonder how far behind Sony Canon really is.  Is Canon really at square one?  One question is how much Canon has learned in developing its aps-c mirrorless cameras that has been helpful to its FF mirrorless development.  Another question is how relevant the Liveview capabilities of the Canon FF frame cameras have been to the FF mirrorless development.  Does Canon really have to do much more than swap out the mirror of a 5DIV for an EVF?

No, not really.  One could argue that the M5 checked off the two biggest missing pieces we had been waiting for (except for 4K) in a proper mirrorless rig:  DPAF + integral EVF.

I'm sure there are real world implementation challenges when you try to scale an M5 up to FF terms (power consumption with an FF sensor that is always effectively in LiveView, cooling during 4K if they go with at tiny body, etc.) but there are no major components or subsystems in FF mirrorless that Canon can't cobble together from their combined M5 + FF SLR experience.  (Right?) 

- A

Quite correct; they have all the parts in the parts bin.  I wonder why they are taking so long.

The heat dissipation issue is why the first FF mirrorless will not be some tiny pocket camera.

Which pleases me (BTW), since tiny is not what I am looking for.

My guess is that there have been several things going on with the timing of FF mirrorless.  First was the development of dual pixel technology with touchscreen focussing.  Then there was the decision to start mirrorless development with aps-c cameras, followed by releasing a generation of 1D and 5D cameras with pretty much everything in Liveview but without an EVF.  It seems clear that Canon has not seen a need to rush FF mirrorless to market.  Maybe it has been partly about waiting on having more processing power.

I also think that the first FF Canon mirrorless will not be a tiny "Super M" wonder.  Maybe about the size of a 6D.

Durf

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #374 on: June 19, 2018, 08:11:52 AM »
It is true that Canon has not released a FF mirrorless, but I wonder how far behind Sony Canon really is.  Is Canon really at square one?  One question is how much Canon has learned in developing its aps-c mirrorless cameras that has been helpful to its FF mirrorless development.  Another question is how relevant the Liveview capabilities of the Canon FF frame cameras have been to the FF mirrorless development.  Does Canon really have to do much more than swap out the mirror of a 5DIV for an EVF?

No, not really.  One could argue that the M5 checked off the two biggest missing pieces we had been waiting for (except for 4K) in a proper mirrorless rig:  DPAF + integral EVF.

I'm sure there are real world implementation challenges when you try to scale an M5 up to FF terms (power consumption with an FF sensor that is always effectively in LiveView, cooling during 4K if they go with at tiny body, etc.) but there are no major components or subsystems in FF mirrorless that Canon can't cobble together from their combined M5 + FF SLR experience.  (Right?) 

- A

Quite correct; they have all the parts in the parts bin.  I wonder why they are taking so long.

The heat dissipation issue is why the first FF mirrorless will not be some tiny pocket camera.

Which pleases me (BTW), since tiny is not what I am looking for.

My guess is that there have been several things going on with the timing of FF mirrorless.  First was the development of dual pixel technology with touchscreen focussing.  Then there was the decision to start mirrorless development with aps-c cameras, followed by releasing a generation of 1D and 5D cameras with pretty much everything in Liveview but without an EVF.  It seems clear that Canon has not seen a need to rush FF mirrorless to market.  Maybe it has been partly about waiting on having more processing power.

I also think that the first FF Canon mirrorless will not be a tiny "Super M" wonder.  Maybe about the size of a 6D.

Personally I think we will soon see Canon take a pretty large step forward with some pretty interesting camera releases with in the next year or so. I think we may see something rather surprising coming this September that'll be FF mirrorless.

If the APS-C M50 is somewhat a sign of things to come (at about 700 bucks), just imagine what Canon will show the FF Mirrorless market for , say, 2000 bucks. I do believe it'll be a remarkable beast of a FF mirrorless camera....

The M50 is just a teaser IMO.

On the DSLR side, we still have possibly the 7D3 and 90D coming soon too (and more?). Canon's about to basically spit a bunch of new stuff out one after another pretty soon.
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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #374 on: June 19, 2018, 08:11:52 AM »