July 19, 2018, 05:48:44 AM

Author Topic: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?  (Read 32772 times)

bokehmon22

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #375 on: June 19, 2018, 12:53:03 PM »
...Canon is unlikely to hit this level on the first iteration so they will probably be pragmatic and be happy initially with something to make the statement "we can do it too"...

I've seen this reasoning a lot on this forum and I don't understand it. Why would Canon not want to hit it out of the park on its first attempt? And, why couldn't they?

They certainly have the resource available. And they've no doubt been researching this for years. I'm not suggesting that their first full frame mirrorless with be the perfect body for everyone. There are some baked-in decisions that will be guaranteed to disappoint no matter what they do (lens mount for example). But, I find it very unlikely they will unveil a "beta" version and in effect say, "we'll do better next time."

The reason I am a bit sceptical is that there is a difference between designing a product and it working out as you intended in the real world.
Added to this, Canon is very cautious about releasing new technology - it seems to me that if there is any doubt they prefer to hold back a bit until something works with a high degree of confidence. Their main marketing drive is making cameras that professionals use and as a soldier says, a rifle that works intermittently is worse than one that does not work at all and I think that thinking has got into Canon's DNA.
Yes, the M series started off a bit of a lemon but that was aimed squarely at the lower end of the market, but I get the idea that with their first FF mirrorless they want to aim more upmarket and that means it must work.

I get that, but canon does not need any new to them technology. They have arguably the best on sensor auto ficus system; they know how to make an EVF. What else is there really? Hell if they want to do something special, they know how to make a global shutter too.

I expect them to do the smart thing, which is to go up to the widest market they can capture. That’s not the high end, and it won’t be a spec sheet warrior, but there is no reason to assume it won’t be well thought out and put together.
Canon has shown they are closer to building a FF mirrorless camera than a lot of people give them credit for and more closer to FF mirrorless than Nikon.

They have technology based on previous APS-C mirrorless tech:
- DPAF with full touch screen menu and focusing
- EVF from M5
- eyeAF from M50
- Ergonomic, menu & build quality from DSLR

Canon can really come out with a really compelling FF mirrorless this Sept if they are aggressive. Pent up demand with enough features at compelling prices will drive a lot of sales even if they decided to go with a new mount (backward compatible to EF lens via adapter close to 100% native).

- 26-30 mp sensor that's an improvement over 2 yo 5D IV
- improved EVF from M5
- improved eyeAF from M50
- ergonomic, menu, build quality, color science similar to 6D
- dual SD
- fully touch screen.

If they can add global shutter, IBIS, or comprehensive video features, it will definitely a success.


« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 01:57:09 PM by bokehmon22 »

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #375 on: June 19, 2018, 12:53:03 PM »

rrcphoto

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #376 on: June 20, 2018, 12:35:54 PM »
...Canon is unlikely to hit this level on the first iteration so they will probably be pragmatic and be happy initially with something to make the statement "we can do it too"...

I've seen this reasoning a lot on this forum and I don't understand it. Why would Canon not want to hit it out of the park on its first attempt? And, why couldn't they?

They certainly have the resource available. And they've no doubt been researching this for years. I'm not suggesting that their first full frame mirrorless with be the perfect body for everyone. There are some baked-in decisions that will be guaranteed to disappoint no matter what they do (lens mount for example). But, I find it very unlikely they will unveil a "beta" version and in effect say, "we'll do better next time."

The reason I am a bit sceptical is that there is a difference between designing a product and it working out as you intended in the real world.
Added to this, Canon is very cautious about releasing new technology - it seems to me that if there is any doubt they prefer to hold back a bit until something works with a high degree of confidence. Their main marketing drive is making cameras that professionals use and as a soldier says, a rifle that works intermittently is worse than one that does not work at all and I think that thinking has got into Canon's DNA.
Yes, the M series started off a bit of a lemon but that was aimed squarely at the lower end of the market, but I get the idea that with their first FF mirrorless they want to aim more upmarket and that means it must work.

I get that, but canon does not need any new to them technology. They have arguably the best on sensor auto ficus system; they know how to make an EVF. What else is there really? Hell if they want to do something special, they know how to make a global shutter too.

I expect them to do the smart thing, which is to go up to the widest market they can capture. That’s not the high end, and it won’t be a spec sheet warrior, but there is no reason to assume it won’t be well thought out and put together.
Canon has shown they are closer to building a FF mirrorless camera than a lot of people give them credit for and more closer to FF mirrorless than Nikon.

They have technology based on previous APS-C mirrorless tech:
- DPAF with full touch screen menu and focusing
- EVF from M5
- eyeAF from M50
- Ergonomic, menu & build quality from DSLR
- global shutter

Canon can really come out with a really compelling FF mirrorless this Sept if they are aggressive. Pent up demand with enough features at compelling prices will drive a lot of sales even if they decided to go with a new mount (backward compatible to EF lens via adapter close to 100% native).

- 26-30 mp sensor that's an improvement over 2 yo 5D IV
- improved EVF from M5
- improved eyeAF from M50
- ergonomic, menu, build quality, color science similar to 6D
- dual SD
- fully touch screen.

If they can add global shutter, IBIS, or comprehensive video features, it will definitely a success.

the M50 is killing it in Japan, do they even need to do that much?

The 5D Mark IV sensor is very competitive as it stands, they don't even really have to improve that much on it. just make it faster, and less power intensive.

TAF

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #377 on: June 22, 2018, 12:23:56 PM »
I have a suspicion that the FF mirrorless we're about to see will look a good deal like an EOS-M on steroids.

Somewhat like a 1950's rangefinder camera - the viewfinder will be a bump not quite as tall as what you see on a DSLR, but much wider, covering most (say, 2/3) of the top of the camera, centered on the lens.

Plenty of space for heat sinks and batteries.

With a large display on the back.

It will use an EF mount.  No adapter.

As for tech specs, not a clue.

But the form-factor would be so easy to implement, it just seems like something that would make sense for an initial fielding attempt.

I hope I am correct, and can afford it...I may be in the market for some new equipment soon.  The nephew liked my EOS-M so much I may not get it back.   :)

bokehmon22

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #378 on: June 22, 2018, 02:05:09 PM »
...Canon is unlikely to hit this level on the first iteration so they will probably be pragmatic and be happy initially with something to make the statement "we can do it too"...

I've seen this reasoning a lot on this forum and I don't understand it. Why would Canon not want to hit it out of the park on its first attempt? And, why couldn't they?

They certainly have the resource available. And they've no doubt been researching this for years. I'm not suggesting that their first full frame mirrorless with be the perfect body for everyone. There are some baked-in decisions that will be guaranteed to disappoint no matter what they do (lens mount for example). But, I find it very unlikely they will unveil a "beta" version and in effect say, "we'll do better next time."

The reason I am a bit sceptical is that there is a difference between designing a product and it working out as you intended in the real world.
Added to this, Canon is very cautious about releasing new technology - it seems to me that if there is any doubt they prefer to hold back a bit until something works with a high degree of confidence. Their main marketing drive is making cameras that professionals use and as a soldier says, a rifle that works intermittently is worse than one that does not work at all and I think that thinking has got into Canon's DNA.
Yes, the M series started off a bit of a lemon but that was aimed squarely at the lower end of the market, but I get the idea that with their first FF mirrorless they want to aim more upmarket and that means it must work.

I get that, but canon does not need any new to them technology. They have arguably the best on sensor auto ficus system; they know how to make an EVF. What else is there really? Hell if they want to do something special, they know how to make a global shutter too.

I expect them to do the smart thing, which is to go up to the widest market they can capture. That’s not the high end, and it won’t be a spec sheet warrior, but there is no reason to assume it won’t be well thought out and put together.
Canon has shown they are closer to building a FF mirrorless camera than a lot of people give them credit for and more closer to FF mirrorless than Nikon.

They have technology based on previous APS-C mirrorless tech:
- DPAF with full touch screen menu and focusing
- EVF from M5
- eyeAF from M50
- Ergonomic, menu & build quality from DSLR
- global shutter

Canon can really come out with a really compelling FF mirrorless this Sept if they are aggressive. Pent up demand with enough features at compelling prices will drive a lot of sales even if they decided to go with a new mount (backward compatible to EF lens via adapter close to 100% native).

- 26-30 mp sensor that's an improvement over 2 yo 5D IV
- improved EVF from M5
- improved eyeAF from M50
- ergonomic, menu, build quality, color science similar to 6D
- dual SD
- fully touch screen.

If they can add global shutter, IBIS, or comprehensive video features, it will definitely a success.

the M50 is killing it in Japan, do they even need to do that much?

The 5D Mark IV sensor is very competitive as it stands, they don't even really have to improve that much on it. just make it faster, and less power intensive.

Canon APS-C Mirrorless is very successful in Japan except world-wide. I think Canon would like a debut their first FF mirrorless not like a first generation product but a more mature and well-thought camera.

I don't think what I'm asking is too much. I don't expect global shutter sensor or similiar ISO/DR as Sony sensor.
They already a great camera with Canon 5D IV and existing APS-C Mirrorless and that sensor is more than most photographer needs for a 2 years old sensor. I'm sure they can refine the sensor even more.

rrcphoto

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #379 on: June 25, 2018, 12:14:43 PM »
...Canon is unlikely to hit this level on the first iteration so they will probably be pragmatic and be happy initially with something to make the statement "we can do it too"...

I've seen this reasoning a lot on this forum and I don't understand it. Why would Canon not want to hit it out of the park on its first attempt? And, why couldn't they?

They certainly have the resource available. And they've no doubt been researching this for years. I'm not suggesting that their first full frame mirrorless with be the perfect body for everyone. There are some baked-in decisions that will be guaranteed to disappoint no matter what they do (lens mount for example). But, I find it very unlikely they will unveil a "beta" version and in effect say, "we'll do better next time."

The reason I am a bit sceptical is that there is a difference between designing a product and it working out as you intended in the real world.
Added to this, Canon is very cautious about releasing new technology - it seems to me that if there is any doubt they prefer to hold back a bit until something works with a high degree of confidence. Their main marketing drive is making cameras that professionals use and as a soldier says, a rifle that works intermittently is worse than one that does not work at all and I think that thinking has got into Canon's DNA.
Yes, the M series started off a bit of a lemon but that was aimed squarely at the lower end of the market, but I get the idea that with their first FF mirrorless they want to aim more upmarket and that means it must work.

I get that, but canon does not need any new to them technology. They have arguably the best on sensor auto ficus system; they know how to make an EVF. What else is there really? Hell if they want to do something special, they know how to make a global shutter too.

I expect them to do the smart thing, which is to go up to the widest market they can capture. That’s not the high end, and it won’t be a spec sheet warrior, but there is no reason to assume it won’t be well thought out and put together.
Canon has shown they are closer to building a FF mirrorless camera than a lot of people give them credit for and more closer to FF mirrorless than Nikon.

They have technology based on previous APS-C mirrorless tech:
- DPAF with full touch screen menu and focusing
- EVF from M5
- eyeAF from M50
- Ergonomic, menu & build quality from DSLR
- global shutter

Canon can really come out with a really compelling FF mirrorless this Sept if they are aggressive. Pent up demand with enough features at compelling prices will drive a lot of sales even if they decided to go with a new mount (backward compatible to EF lens via adapter close to 100% native).

- 26-30 mp sensor that's an improvement over 2 yo 5D IV
- improved EVF from M5
- improved eyeAF from M50
- ergonomic, menu, build quality, color science similar to 6D
- dual SD
- fully touch screen.

If they can add global shutter, IBIS, or comprehensive video features, it will definitely a success.

the M50 is killing it in Japan, do they even need to do that much?

The 5D Mark IV sensor is very competitive as it stands, they don't even really have to improve that much on it. just make it faster, and less power intensive.

Canon APS-C Mirrorless is very successful in Japan except world-wide. I think Canon would like a debut their first FF mirrorless not like a first generation product but a more mature and well-thought camera.

I don't think what I'm asking is too much. I don't expect global shutter sensor or similiar ISO/DR as Sony sensor.
They already a great camera with Canon 5D IV and existing APS-C Mirrorless and that sensor is more than most photographer needs for a 2 years old sensor. I'm sure they can refine the sensor even more.

your phrasing was confusing then because it sounded like you thought they *needed* to have global shutter, IBIS, or comprehensive video features, to be a success.


bokehmon22

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  • Posts: 40
Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #380 on: June 25, 2018, 01:59:44 PM »
...Canon is unlikely to hit this level on the first iteration so they will probably be pragmatic and be happy initially with something to make the statement "we can do it too"...

I've seen this reasoning a lot on this forum and I don't understand it. Why would Canon not want to hit it out of the park on its first attempt? And, why couldn't they?

They certainly have the resource available. And they've no doubt been researching this for years. I'm not suggesting that their first full frame mirrorless with be the perfect body for everyone. There are some baked-in decisions that will be guaranteed to disappoint no matter what they do (lens mount for example). But, I find it very unlikely they will unveil a "beta" version and in effect say, "we'll do better next time."

The reason I am a bit sceptical is that there is a difference between designing a product and it working out as you intended in the real world.
Added to this, Canon is very cautious about releasing new technology - it seems to me that if there is any doubt they prefer to hold back a bit until something works with a high degree of confidence. Their main marketing drive is making cameras that professionals use and as a soldier says, a rifle that works intermittently is worse than one that does not work at all and I think that thinking has got into Canon's DNA.
Yes, the M series started off a bit of a lemon but that was aimed squarely at the lower end of the market, but I get the idea that with their first FF mirrorless they want to aim more upmarket and that means it must work.

I get that, but canon does not need any new to them technology. They have arguably the best on sensor auto ficus system; they know how to make an EVF. What else is there really? Hell if they want to do something special, they know how to make a global shutter too.

I expect them to do the smart thing, which is to go up to the widest market they can capture. That’s not the high end, and it won’t be a spec sheet warrior, but there is no reason to assume it won’t be well thought out and put together.
Canon has shown they are closer to building a FF mirrorless camera than a lot of people give them credit for and more closer to FF mirrorless than Nikon.

They have technology based on previous APS-C mirrorless tech:
- DPAF with full touch screen menu and focusing
- EVF from M5
- eyeAF from M50
- Ergonomic, menu & build quality from DSLR
- global shutter

Canon can really come out with a really compelling FF mirrorless this Sept if they are aggressive. Pent up demand with enough features at compelling prices will drive a lot of sales even if they decided to go with a new mount (backward compatible to EF lens via adapter close to 100% native).

- 26-30 mp sensor that's an improvement over 2 yo 5D IV
- improved EVF from M5
- improved eyeAF from M50
- ergonomic, menu, build quality, color science similar to 6D
- dual SD
- fully touch screen.

If they can add global shutter, IBIS, or comprehensive video features, it will definitely a success.

the M50 is killing it in Japan, do they even need to do that much?

The 5D Mark IV sensor is very competitive as it stands, they don't even really have to improve that much on it. just make it faster, and less power intensive.

Canon APS-C Mirrorless is very successful in Japan except world-wide. I think Canon would like a debut their first FF mirrorless not like a first generation product but a more mature and well-thought camera.

I don't think what I'm asking is too much. I don't expect global shutter sensor or similiar ISO/DR as Sony sensor.
They already a great camera with Canon 5D IV and existing APS-C Mirrorless and that sensor is more than most photographer needs for a 2 years old sensor. I'm sure they can refine the sensor even more.

your phrasing was confusing then because it sounded like you thought they *needed* to have global shutter, IBIS, or comprehensive video features, to be a success.

I took it out for avoid confusion. It doesn't need global shutter or IBIS to be successful. A decent video feature may be needed to be competitive for hybrid shooter and if they are demanding $3000+ up MSRP. No way Canon can only deliver Canon 5D IV video features in 2018.

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Re: Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?
« Reply #380 on: June 25, 2018, 01:59:44 PM »