June 22, 2018, 11:11:04 PM

Author Topic: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera  (Read 5891 times)

ahsanford

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2018, 11:21:46 PM »
Is this the first sign they could be dropping EF mount? So far almost every lens rumour favours EF.
No, there have been several patents that were FF mirrorless related over the past few years, lenses, including a EF- new lens mount converter.  We know what the news lens mount will likely look like, assuming that Canon decides to go with it, which looks likely.

Agree -- this is not a hard tell of what mount they'll use.  Canon would be fools to put all their innovation eggs in one basket with the mount. 

It's not uncommon (if not routine) to patent things you may never build for more reasons than I can count, so I wouldn't be surprised if this was just one of many ideas they've kicked around.

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2018, 11:21:46 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2018, 11:26:24 PM »
This patent is the latest of several signs that Canon is exploring the design of a new mount for mirrorless fullframe camera.  Even if Canon does bring out a FF Mirrorless camera with a new mount, that does not mean that Canon will "abandon the EF mount".    In the first place it will keep making DSLR cameras.  In the second place, it may bring out mirrorless models that have the EF mount, depending on how the market develops.

Yeah, we've covered this at length.  Canon is large enough to plausibly:

* Go thin mount
* Go full EF mount
* Go with one and then offer the other
* Possibly make a full EF mount yet somehow allow some mirrorless-only lenses to nestle/telescope into the body where the mirror used to be (this is rather unlikely but a pretty neat idea)

So I wouldn't read this patent as the future of the platform.  It's one of many potential futures for the platform.

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rrcphoto

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2018, 12:05:29 AM »
Is this the first sign they could be dropping EF mount? So far almost every lens rumour favours EF.
No, there have been several patents that were FF mirrorless related over the past few years, lenses, including a EF- new lens mount converter.  We know what the news lens mount will likely look like, assuming that Canon decides to go with it, which looks likely.

there wasn't that much. there was maybe one or two lenses, which ere simply embodiment of a much larger patent application.

and the mount converter wasn't really a mount converter it was a real odd duck.

this is the ONLY patent application that has been found to be specifically for a short registration distance stills camera, and really - the only sign of it.


ahsanford

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2018, 12:09:59 AM »
this is the ONLY patent application that has been found to be specifically for a short registration distance stills camera, and really - the only sign of it.

Sure, but the odds of Canon opening their mirrorless history books with a salvo including an f/2.8 UWA zoom seems awfully low. 

Surely -- if the thin mount is chosen -- the opening battery of glass will be a combination of staple tools and things that would show off the smaller form factor:

35 f/slow
50 f/quick but not screamingly quick
24-something f/slow

...and so on.  If Canon goes thin, I see them pointing squarely at an EF adaptor for the first few years for anyone asking for the f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes. 

- A

KevinLegend

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2018, 03:36:05 AM »
FYI - the mirrorless should be out by September and ready to ship. ;) That's all I'm gonna say for now.

ChristopherMarkPerez

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2018, 05:14:13 AM »
I ran a check on this quote and it looks like it's from 2014.
[/snark]

FYI - the mirrorless should be out by September and ready to ship. ;) That's all I'm gonna say for now.
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jolyonralph

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2018, 09:56:51 AM »
this is the ONLY patent application that has been found to be specifically for a short registration distance stills camera, and really - the only sign of it.

Sure, but the odds of Canon opening their mirrorless history books with a salvo including an f/2.8 UWA zoom seems awfully low. 

Surely -- if the thin mount is chosen -- the opening battery of glass will be a combination of staple tools and things that would show off the smaller form factor:

35 f/slow
50 f/quick but not screamingly quick
24-something f/slow

...and so on.  If Canon goes thin, I see them pointing squarely at an EF adaptor for the first few years for anyone asking for the f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes. 

Check out the diagram in the patent. Connected onto a mirrorless body it's going to be small! A huge difference to the 16-35 on an adaptor.  Remember, Canon aren't competing with themselves here. They're competing with Nikon and Sony. And to do so they have to innovate, so I think you're wrong about what lenses they'll launch with the lens.

They are competing with lenses such as the FE 16-35 2.8GM, and this new design seems to be squarely aimed at that. I wonder if the limitation to 30mm max is a way of either ensuring quality or reducing weight within the design.

I think a 24-70 2.8 or something approximating the range, is highly likely. Probably also an f/4 kit lens version.



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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2018, 09:56:51 AM »

Steve Balcombe

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2018, 11:27:05 AM »
* Possibly make a full EF mount yet somehow allow some mirrorless-only lenses to nestle/telescope into the body where the mirror used to be (this is rather unlikely but a pretty neat idea)

Basically the same solution as EF-S, just another variation. Very neat as it totally avoids the need for an adapter.

I'm sure it would be no problem to piggy-back a more modern communications protocol onto the EF mount, or add two or three new pins which are out of reach of EF lenses.

jolyonralph

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2018, 11:38:04 AM »
Basically the same solution as EF-S, just another variation. Very neat as it totally avoids the need for an adapter.

I'm sure it would be no problem to piggy-back a more modern communications protocol onto the EF mount, or add two or three new pins which are out of reach of EF lenses.

I think it's highly unlikely now the new mirrorless camera will have an EF mount. That doesn't mean Canon won't produce mirrorless cameras with EF mount in the future, I'm sure they will. But I don't think that's what is coming next.

With the EF-S mount Canon had a solution that allows the use of the standard EF lenses on the crop bodies, so that when upgrading to full frame you can at least take some of your glass with you.

For that and many other reasons I think we're going to see the EF-M mount on the new camera, with full-frame EF-M lenses being useable on crop EOS-M cameras too.   So, the EF-MF (or whatever they call it) mount will take both EF-M and EF-MF lenses, albeit with EF-M lenses having to run on a cropped mode.
Jolyon Ralph

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JRWPIX

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2018, 12:42:18 PM »
The owner of the local camera store has seen the "Mirrorless 5D" in the wild. It can use both current EF glass, via adapter and there will be new mirrorless lenses like the EF-M. Flange size could not be ascertained before the "Mirrorless 5D" was placed into a camera bag and out of view. The EOS M5 flange/sensor/throat diameter is too small for full frame. The contact pin arrangement is in the "way" of the light path of full frame. Plan on being able to adapt Leica M glass to new FF Canon's. All EF glass will fit on the new body, via adapter. I'll bet the curved sensor patents are going to go with the new short distance lens designs, in the new "Mirrorless 5D".

jolyonralph

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2018, 02:07:42 PM »
The EOS M5 flange/sensor/throat diameter is too small for full frame. The contact pin arrangement is in the "way" of the light path of full frame.

Not sure where this comes from, but check out the photo of the M5 compared to the A7RII. The mounts, including contact pin arrangement, are almost identical. The EF-M mount was *clearly* designed from the start to be able to deal with full-frame sensors.

All EF glass will fit on the new body, via adapter. I'll bet the curved sensor patents are going to go with the new short distance lens designs, in the new "Mirrorless 5D".

No, that won't happen. Unless the sensor is going to be adjustable between curved and flat (which isn't impossible, but isn't easy) there is no way these two things can coexist. Either you have a flat sensor, or you lose compatibility with existing EF glass.

Jolyon Ralph

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BillB

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2018, 03:45:28 PM »
this is the ONLY patent application that has been found to be specifically for a short registration distance stills camera, and really - the only sign of it.

Sure, but the odds of Canon opening their mirrorless history books with a salvo including an f/2.8 UWA zoom seems awfully low. 

Surely -- if the thin mount is chosen -- the opening battery of glass will be a combination of staple tools and things that would show off the smaller form factor:

35 f/slow
50 f/quick but not screamingly quick
24-something f/slow

...and so on.  If Canon goes thin, I see them pointing squarely at an EF adaptor for the first few years for anyone asking for the f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes. 

Check out the diagram in the patent. Connected onto a mirrorless body it's going to be small! A huge difference to the 16-35 on an adaptor.  Remember, Canon aren't competing with themselves here. They're competing with Nikon and Sony. And to do so they have to innovate, so I think you're wrong about what lenses they'll launch with the lens.

They are competing with lenses such as the FE 16-35 2.8GM, and this new design seems to be squarely aimed at that. I wonder if the limitation to 30mm max is a way of either ensuring quality or reducing weight within the design.

I think a 24-70 2.8 or something approximating the range, is highly likely. Probably also an f/4 kit lens version.

If Canon is aggressive in introducing a FF mirrorless with a new mount, some small high quality zooms would seem to be a very important piece of the puzzle.  Primes alone would't be enough.  Wonder how big the new 70-200's will be, although they will be EF. At those focal lengths a new short flange distance mount wouldn't help make it any smaller or lighter.  A telescoping design would though, or variable aperture.

takesome1

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2018, 04:16:29 PM »
I would bet on a new lens mount.
Buy an adapter to keep using  your EF lenses.
New lenses for the new mount. It creates a new set of lenses to sell and market.

Face it, Canon doesn't want you to keep using your old EF lenses. They want you to buy new lenses.

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While the above numbers may seem like nonsense. It is what I typed while trying to kill a small spider that ran down in to the keyboard between the 3 and 5 key. The little sucker is still in there.

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2018, 04:16:29 PM »

zim

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2018, 04:32:23 PM »
.3052*8
+
While the above numbers may seem like nonsense. It is what I typed while trying to kill a small spider that ran down in to the keyboard between the 3 and 5 key. The little sucker is still in there.

 ;D ;D ;D

and I'm watching Spider-Man! you just can't make coincidences like that up amazing  :o

mb66energy

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2018, 03:10:35 AM »
I would bet on a new lens mount.
Buy an adapter to keep using  your EF lenses.
New lenses for the new mount. It creates a new set of lenses to sell and market.

Face it, Canon doesn't want you to keep using your old EF lenses. They want you to buy new lenses.

.3052*8
+
While the above numbers may seem like nonsense. It is what I typed while trying to kill a small spider that ran down in to the keyboard between the 3 and 5 key. The little sucker is still in there.

I think that the DSLR isn't dead for at least one maybe two decades. The 200D/SL2 won against M5 due to zero power operability with the right lenses for checking a scene.
My conclusion is that we will see a peaceful coexistence of EF and EF-M(?) mount. If the adapter is cheap (70 USD/EUR or so) you can buy one for each important EF lens after dismissing the DSLR. In most cases there is no size or weight penalty - take a look at the typical mirrorless lens: Built in extension tube between DSLR designed lens group and mirrorless body.

Spider removal: Vacuum your keyboard through a mesh to keep the key caps in place - also feasible for bread crumbs :)

16-30mm patent: good to see Canon pull advantages out of the missing mirror by using optimized lens designs!
Most used tools: EOS 200D + EF-S 60mm + EF 100mm Macro + EF f/2.0 100  + 4.0 / 70-200 IS

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2018, 03:10:35 AM »