June 24, 2018, 08:40:17 PM

Author Topic: What's Next From Canon?  (Read 13196 times)

Generalized Specialist

  • PowerShot G7 X Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 14
Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #105 on: June 13, 2018, 09:57:01 PM »
No doubt.  But Canon isn't losing market share, so the 'many' people you talk to aren't really relevant.

Where Canon is padding their numbers to get to the roughly 50% marketshare is in their low end Costco/Best Buy kits.  Canon is turning into the Kia of the camera world.

Go out anywhere touristy and there is a sea of teenagers with a Rebel (and to be fair, Nikon 3000 series bodies) and kit lenses hanging around their neck, THAT'S the majority of your 50% market right there.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 10:09:39 PM by Generalized Specialist »

canon rumors FORUM

Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #105 on: June 13, 2018, 09:57:01 PM »

Generalized Specialist

  • PowerShot G7 X Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 14
Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #106 on: June 13, 2018, 10:04:28 PM »
Yes, Sony was #1 for two months in one (large) country. Last year they were #2 for two months in another (large) country. And last year, Nikon was #1 in that latter country.  For one month.

The rest of the time?  Canon.

The fact that Sony has made inroads this quickly and is making even bigger strides this year says it all.  When this years results are released next winter will Sony be the #1 brand for 3 or 4 or 5 months?  The slo-mo Canon train wreck is happening.  And Sony is doing that by pushing FF bodies and lenses.  Canon?  Rebels.

2 or 3 years ago we laughed (I was one of the laughing ones) when someone said Sony was going to be a top tier contender.  Look at them now.  A buyer would be crazy to dismiss a Sony offering if they were in the market.  You couldn't say that those 2 or 3 years ago.  Sony is being rewarded by pushing the envelope and giving buyers what they want.  Canon?  They gave us the M50 and the Rebel 4000D.  The 4000D was released less than 4 months ago and it's already looooooong forgotten.  How the mighty fall.

Generalized Specialist

  • PowerShot G7 X Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 14
Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #107 on: June 13, 2018, 10:21:01 PM »
It is beyond agonizing waiting for Canon to come up with a full frame mirrorless camera almost five years after Sony's full frame cameras hit the market. The only chance Canon has of penetrating that market is for the new full frame to accommodate EF lenses. Canon's evolution of native lenses for their cropped sensor mirrorless lenses has been something less than glacial.  As Canon improves the capability of their M bodies they are making cheaper slower kit lenses. The original M had an adequate 18-55 mm f5.6 lens with a metal lens mount. The M5 kit lens is a cheaper lens with fiberglass lens mount and an F 6.3. Go figure. Canon you are embarrassing yourselves.

Exactly.  Sony has moved so fast, faster than the Canon behemoth and beurocracy could even get out of its own way, let alone design, build, market or sell something.  Canon has waited far too long and will pay the price.  The A7iii and A7Riii and the upcoming A7s are all very hard for Canon to come out with something competitive and not only that, it goes against the entire Canon business philosophy. 

There is a HUGE difference in the way the two companies design their product and do business.  Canon is old school - they will design it and you will buy it and you will be happy with that.  Sony is the sleek fast moving we will build what you want and price it right.  Sony is not afraid to throw any previous product under the bus to make that happen, Canon wouldn't ever even consider doing that.

With the exception of super tele's and maybe tilt shifts, Sony is already a complete and mature system.  When Canon ever wakes up and releases something it will be infantile in comparison and they will have to build up the entire ecosystem.  Talk about starting with a huge handicap!  And to think, Canon could have squashed Sony years ago but they let them get to this point.  Slo-motion train wreck.  Canon is the new Kodak.  So narrow focused to not compete against their own DSLR's they missed the boat completely and are falling more and more behind every month.  Sad.

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ***************
  • Posts: 22715
Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #108 on: June 13, 2018, 10:31:50 PM »
No doubt.  But Canon isn't losing market share, so the 'many' people you talk to aren't really relevant.

Where Canon is padding their numbers to get to the roughly 50% marketshare is in their low end Costco/Best Buy kits.  Canon is turning into the Kia of the camera world.

Go out anywhere touristy and there is a sea of teenagers with a Rebel (and to be fair, Nikon 3000 series bodies) and kit lenses hanging around their neck, THAT'S the majority of your 50% market right there.

Go to any professional sporting event and count the Sony cameras.  You can use your fingers if that helps you count, one hand should be more than enough.
EOS 1D X, EOS M6, lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

unfocused

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 4166
    • Mark Gordon Communications
Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #109 on: June 13, 2018, 10:38:04 PM »
I'd recommend just ignoring him.  It's abundantly clear that he's fabricating all this bullish!t as a pathetic attempt to gain attention and notoriety, and responding to him merely plays into that and feeds his psychoses.

Oh, I know. I just want to remind people every chance I get that Harry has never programmed anything except the microwave in his mom's kitchen that he uses to cook his pizza rolls.

3kramd5

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2104
Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #110 on: June 13, 2018, 10:51:45 PM »
Go out anywhere touristy and there is a sea of teenagers with a Rebel (and to be fair, Nikon 3000 series bodies) and kit lenses hanging around their neck, THAT'S the majority of your 50% market right there.
 

I’d love to be a fly on the wall when you approach Canon leadership and paint this picture:

“All around the world you see canon cameras. Name me head of the camera business and I’ll right this unbearable wrong. Too long we’ve held this commanding lead of the widest market in the business. Under my vision, you’ll see more Sigma cameras in the wild than Canon.”

Job for life?


If you insist on a car analogy, Canon is probably more like Toyota: strong in the consumer market and the high end.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 11:40:10 PM by 3kramd5 »

Aussie shooter

  • EOS Rebel T7i
  • ****
  • Posts: 101
Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #111 on: June 13, 2018, 11:53:29 PM »
No doubt.  But Canon isn't losing market share, so the 'many' people you talk to aren't really relevant.

Where Canon is padding their numbers to get to the roughly 50% marketshare is in their low end Costco/Best Buy kits.  Canon is turning into the Kia of the camera world.

Go out anywhere touristy and there is a sea of teenagers with a Rebel (and to be fair, Nikon 3000 series bodies) and kit lenses hanging around their neck, THAT'S the majority of your 50% market right there.

Working on a tourist island off the coast of Cairns, Australia I get to see roughly 500-1000 tourists a day. most shoot with phones however many use dedicated cameras. Most of those who use cameras are a mix of smaller mirrorless and DSLR. Canons are the most represented in that group but I see plenty of Oly's, Sony's, Fujis etc. As for the higher end stuff. 80% is canon. 6d's, 5d 3's and 4's , a smattering of 1d's, lots of lenses with Pretty red rings on them. Sony FF mirrorless probably make up about 5% of the higher end stuff with Nikon and others making up the rest. Canon all but own(and definitely are targeting) the biggest group of buyers on the planet and I get to see evidence of that every single day. Canon do not base their decisions on what forum commenters in mature markets are saying. They are looking at the best growing market there is for consumer goods. I'll let you have a guess as to what that market is and then you will understand what canon are likely aiming at.
Gear....Who cares. Just shoot
(just kidding) I'd love to be a gear whore but can't afford it

canon rumors FORUM

Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #111 on: June 13, 2018, 11:53:29 PM »

Mikehit

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2536
Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #112 on: June 14, 2018, 03:16:16 AM »
Yes, Sony was #1 for two months in one (large) country. Last year they were #2 for two months in another (large) country. And last year, Nikon was #1 in that latter country.  For one month.

The rest of the time?  Canon.

The fact that Sony has made inroads this quickly and is making even bigger strides this year says it all.  When this years results are released next winter will Sony be the #1 brand for 3 or 4 or 5 months?  The slo-mo Canon train wreck is happening.  And Sony is doing that by pushing FF bodies and lenses.  Canon?  Rebels.

2 or 3 years ago we laughed (I was one of the laughing ones) when someone said Sony was going to be a top tier contender.  Look at them now.  A buyer would be crazy to dismiss a Sony offering if they were in the market.  You couldn't say that those 2 or 3 years ago.  Sony is being rewarded by pushing the envelope and giving buyers what they want.  Canon?  They gave us the M50 and the Rebel 4000D.  The 4000D was released less than 4 months ago and it's already looooooong forgotten.  How the mighty fall.

Sony have made inroads into one specific market - FF mirrorless. The role of a company is to make profits by selling units and the margin of each one is the profit.
Yes, the Sony A73 is an excellent camera for the price but I think there are many looking at that and wondering how much they are making (or maybe even losing) on that. The 6D is part of the Canon catalogue that has the  efficiencies of volume across the whole range (rebels to 1Dx2) but I am not sure you can say the same about Sony.
Sony came in at that price because they needed to compete with the 6D2 - what happens when Canon release their APS-C mirrorless at an equivalent price? 

You mock the Rebel lines but you have to ask where is the Sony for newbies who have not got $2,000 USD. The fact is that Sony survive by pinching customers from Canon/Nikon because they do not have an introductory model to match the Rebels. And if you think Sony can go from distant 3rd to 1st in one year, you are in a fantasy.

The fact is that Japan and Asia is the biggest market for mirrorless and Sony are third behind Canon and Olympus. How does that match up with your fantasy?

fullstop

  • EOS 80D
  • ****
  • Posts: 323
Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #113 on: June 14, 2018, 04:24:53 AM »
Like I said, Canon is the new Kodak.

Are MILCs game-changing like film to digital sensors, or are they are merely another evolutionary step in the digital sensor era?

Doesn't matter what you say. Canon just needs to secure another year of 50% market share.

Going from analog/film photography to digital was the biggest step transferring imaging from 18th century tech into the 21st century. Similar to the control of fire for mankind.

Getting rid of mechanically moving elements - basically the 19th/early 20th century stuff in imaging gear - is akin to mankind inventing the wheel. Finally we get "thru the lens" autofocus, auto-metering and wysiwg viewfinders without needing any of the follwing: no more clunky mirrors, submirrors, heavy prisms, dislocated AF-systems out of plane of focus of image.

Why is mirrorless an total win?

* vibration-free operation [as soon as mech shutters are finally eliminated]
* absolutely silent operation
* no more back-/front focus issues
* WYSIWIG viewfinder
* no lubricants/oil splatters [ (c) Nikon], no grit/abrasive particles from mech movement in camera settling on sensor
* easy to wheatherseal, robust, solid state cameras
* significantly lower manufacturing cost - 100% robotic assembly possible, much simpler calibration and QC
* potentially (!) lower cost of cameras - if we, the customers - stand up and don't allow manufacturers to just pocket all of the cost savings themselves / for shareholders
* significantly smaller & lighter cameras
* significantly smaller lenses in most commonly used focal length range [about 20 to 85 mm FL range] - if mount parameters [FFD, throat width] are chosen wisely and matched to image circle [i.e. not using mounts designed for APS-C for FF sensors]

plus a few more advantages that all make a difference every time we pick up a camera, lug it around and with potentially every image we take.  :)

Mikehit

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2536
Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #114 on: June 14, 2018, 04:57:58 AM »


Getting rid of mechanically moving elements - basically the 19th/early 20th century stuff in imaging gear - is akin to mankind inventing the wheel.

Wow! hyperbole or what...?

Back-front focus issues - as soon as you put phase detect on the sensor you introduce a source of focus errors which is precisely why Olympus have put micro adjust on the E-M1Mkii. Why do you keep spouting this nonsense?
Easy to weather seal? Why is it easier than DSLR and why is it an advantage of mirrorless? And if it is easier why have Sony not mastered it yet? More nonsense
'Significantly lower manufacturing cost - more nonsense. What do you mean by 'significant'? Correction....apart from your own innate fanstasies what evidence do you have about 'significant'?
The 'significantly lower manufacturing costs then becomes 'potentially lower camera prices'. Cameras are commodities and manufacturing price will be reflected in street price
'Significantly smaller and lighter' - not everyone wants that

As for 'absolutely silent operation' and 'vibration free' you are talking about things not yet guaranteed. Both rely on not using the shutter which means global electronic shutter which does not yet exist in this range of cameras.  So why are you bringing whose up as a 'win'? You may as well say 'when DSLRs have a hybrid OVF/EVF then you can have the same advantages.

fullstop

  • EOS 80D
  • ****
  • Posts: 323
Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #115 on: June 14, 2018, 05:27:37 AM »
Canon being so "highly innovative" - why should their FF mirrorless cams not come with electronic global shutter?

they'd then have a true USP over Sony. 100% vibration-free, 100% silent (by default, unless user activates any painful electronic noise of their own poor taste and choice), very compact, no moving parts inside, very robust, very compact (by default, unless users put all sorts of grips, rigs or cages on it to make it as big as desired) and less expensive than Sony products. Canon wins, Sony loses. :-)

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ***************
  • Posts: 22715
Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #116 on: June 14, 2018, 05:39:55 AM »


Getting rid of mechanically moving elements - basically the 19th/early 20th century stuff in imaging gear - is akin to mankind inventing the wheel.

Wow! hyperbole or what...?

I have a better analogy.

Film to digital is like the founding of photography forums on the internet, where we went from conversations with locals at photo clubs to global interaction and sharing. 

DSLR to mirrorless is akin to banning AvTvM from CR forums – a minor upgrade to one internet photography forum, but really had no meaningful or lasting effect on the content or output of the forum.

 ;D
EOS 1D X, EOS M6, lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

Kit.

  • EOS Rebel SL2
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #117 on: June 14, 2018, 05:40:41 AM »
Where Canon is padding their numbers to get to the roughly 50% marketshare is in their low end Costco/Best Buy kits.  Canon is turning into the Kia of the camera world.
So, in your reality Kia owns 50% of automotive market?

Go out anywhere touristy and there is a sea of teenagers with a Rebel (and to be fair, Nikon 3000 series bodies) and kit lenses hanging around their neck, THAT'S the majority of your 50% market right there.
As if it were a bad thing?

It is very good for Canon (as well as for existing Canon users) that millions of teenagers are getting into Canon camera ergonomics, especially if Canon makes profits from that.

The fact that Sony has made inroads this quickly
So, in your reality Sony did not acquire its ILC business from Konica Minolta 12 years ago? And Minolta did not have about the same market positioning and market share in ILC business of 1990s as Sony has now?

canon rumors FORUM

Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #117 on: June 14, 2018, 05:40:41 AM »

BillB

  • EOS 7D Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 563
Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #118 on: June 14, 2018, 05:47:43 AM »
Canon being so "highly innovative" - why should their FF mirrorless cams not come with electronic global shutter?

they'd then have a true USP over Sony. 100% vibration-free, 100% silent (by default, unless user activates any painful electronic noise of their own poor taste and choice), very compact, no moving parts inside, very robust, very compact (by default, unless users put all sorts of grips, rigs or cages on it to make it as big as desired) and less expensive than Sony products. Canon wins, Sony loses. :-)

I take it that you question is rhetorical, and the point is to elaborate on the kind of camera that you think Canon should build, as you have many times before.

fullstop

  • EOS 80D
  • ****
  • Posts: 323
Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #119 on: June 14, 2018, 05:55:07 AM »
i am sure that back in the day, when some smart folks invented the wheel, there were less smart folk standing around saying "what's it good for? why ould we not continue to just carry things on our backs and ride our oxen and horses to go places. those are good, proven mobility solutions. that darn newfangled wheel is just a fad, that will go away soon. a solution to a problem to be found. if god had wanted us to use wheels, we would have been born with them, instead of legs." yada yada ... let's just call them apologists! :-)

and when the first photographs were taken all them portrait, landscape and still-life painters surely said: "not needed. we can do it way better!" ...  :-)

canon rumors FORUM

Re: What's Next From Canon?
« Reply #119 on: June 14, 2018, 05:55:07 AM »