July 22, 2018, 08:30:21 PM

Author Topic: Sonykon = Sony is the head of Nikon?  (Read 2931 times)

jolyonralph

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Re: Sonykon = Sony is the head of Nikon?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2018, 06:20:12 PM »
In other non-news, Samsung sells screen components to Apple.

This is what manufacturers do to make a buck.

Jolyon Ralph

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Re: Sonykon = Sony is the head of Nikon?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2018, 06:20:12 PM »

fullstop

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Re: Sonykon = Sony is the head of Nikon?
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2018, 06:27:33 AM »
sure. Only us customers shall be "brand loyal". LOL  ;D

ahsanford

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Re: Sonykon = Sony is the head of Nikon?
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2018, 11:07:34 AM »
To the OP: disagree.

People are reading way too much into this.  I find it fascinating who is making what these days, but consider:

1) No one knows the specifics of the deal.  Nikon surely has exclusive access to the D850 sensor for the foreseeable future (if not indefinitely) and Sony can't trap-door Nikon by robbing them of supply to torpedo D850 sales.  Nikon would never sign up for a deal that could ever run out of supply during the D850 lifecycle.

2) What Nikon does on one product line is not what they are doing on the other.  They still put Nikon sensors in to other cameras.

3) The difference between Sony-made and Nikon-made sensors is presumably the difference between Sony-made and Canon-made sensors, i.e. not very much at all.  We can debate feature-set specifics, backside illumination, etc. but 5-10 points difference at DXO is nothing in terms of real image output.  That means that if the business relationship sours with Sony, Nikon can just drop their own sensor into future bodies.

4) Sony wants to be selling sensors as much as it wants to win in the ILC market -- isn't the sensor business still decoupled from the camera business?  They each have their own business goals through separate leadership, I thought.

If you believe Nikon using Sony sensors means that Sony is running Nikon, I can't help you.  That position paints a picture that an imaging company is only as good as their sensors, but Canon's dominance in the market absolutely dismantles that argument.  There is so much more to an imaging company than the sensor inside -- ergonomics, handling, controls, AF, data handling, lenses, etc. and I don't think you are giving remotely enough credit to Nikon in those areas.

- A
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 11:22:40 AM by ahsanford »

unfocused

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Re: Sonykon = Sony is the head of Nikon?
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2018, 11:24:04 AM »

...If you believe Nikon using Sony sensors means that Sony is running Nikon, I can't help you...

I'd say, "if you believe Nikon contracting with Sony to make Nikon sensors means that Sony is running Nikon, I can't help you."

It sounds like Nikon simply contracts the manufacturing out to Sony, but no evidence that they are not designing and setting the specs for those sensors themselves.

If Sony were to back out of the agreement, I'm sure Nikon could find another company to do the sensor manufacturing for them.

ahsanford

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Re: Sonykon = Sony is the head of Nikon?
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2018, 11:31:26 AM »
I'd say, "if you believe Nikon contracting with Sony to make Nikon sensors means that Sony is running Nikon, I can't help you."

It sounds like Nikon simply contracts the manufacturing out to Sony, but no evidence that they are not designing and setting the specs for those sensors themselves.

If Sony were to back out of the agreement, I'm sure Nikon could find another company to do the sensor manufacturing for them.

Fair.

"Sounds like" = do we know it's Nikon designed and Sony built?  Any chance they completely farmed out the sensor work -- dropped the desired high-level performance and connectivity expectations (with some negotiation for what is possible) and just let Sony do the rest?

Also, I think Sony would face an epic lawsuit if they didn't deliver for the specific products they've agreed to supply.  Nikon may own the specs, but it's not a certainty another supplier could just knock that out in a reasonable timeframe with identical performance, is it?

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fullstop

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Re: Sonykon = Sony is the head of Nikon?
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2018, 12:09:23 PM »
Nikon themselves have clearly stated that their (DSLR) sensors are "designed by Nikon".  They did not say, whom they contracted manufacturing out. But if a sensor has an "IMX" label ... then its clear it comes out of a Sony fab.

But it really does not matter. Over the last 10 years Canon has not been able to offer their customers "superior sensors" by not only designing but also "fabbing" them in-house. Rather the opposite.

ahsanford

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Re: Sonykon = Sony is the head of Nikon?
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2018, 12:13:44 PM »
Over the last 10 years Canon has not been able to offer their customers "superior sensors" by not only designing but also "fabbing" them in-house. Rather the opposite.

I know.  So many people abandoned Canon for doing th--

Oh.  Wait.

- A

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Re: Sonykon = Sony is the head of Nikon?
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2018, 12:13:44 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: Sonykon = Sony is the head of Nikon?
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2018, 12:18:03 PM »
Can someone tell me how DPAF and outsourcing can co-exist?  Does that technology handcuff them (or possibly discourage them) form outsourcing the sensor?

I'm sure it's patented, but does Canon outsource any sensors with DPAF today? 

FF = don't think any are outsourced
APS-C = don't think any are outsourced
1" = outsourced from Sony on some models, but do any have DPAF?

I found one powershot listed at B&H with DPAF, and it was the G1X mk III, which stepped up to a crop sensor.

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RGF

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Re: Sonykon = Sony is the head of Nikon?
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2018, 05:24:22 PM »
The real question here is whether Sony sees itself primarily as a manufacturer of sensors, or of cameras.  My guess is the former because of the huge market for their phone sensors, and much smaller for APS-C, 35mm, and MFD sensors.  Sony is probably happy to have Nikon as a showcase for its more important business unit.

Based upon camera introductions, Sony would like to be in the camera game but has thus far not figured out how to do so.  They are trying to be very different from canon and nikon and what they have created thus far is very useful (at least to me and a number of people I have talked to) for current Canon and Nikon shooters.  They will need to find a way to differentiate themselves from Nikon and Canon while producing cameras that appeal mainstream shooters and are perhaps have a significant point of difference (without making the camera to hard to learn to use).

well that is my $0.02

RGF

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Re: Sonykon = Sony is the head of Nikon?
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2018, 12:38:35 AM »
Over the last 10 years Canon has not been able to offer their customers "superior sensors" by not only designing but also "fabbing" them in-house. Rather the opposite.

I know.  So many people abandoned Canon for doing th--

Oh.  Wait.

- A

Impossible to tell but I bet that Nikon/Sony camera/sensor has hurt at least to some degree Canon's sales.


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Re: Sonykon = Sony is the head of Nikon?
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2018, 12:38:35 AM »