July 22, 2018, 02:39:51 PM

Author Topic: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]  (Read 22439 times)

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #255 on: July 11, 2018, 07:43:56 AM »
Not to mention what a PITA it is when you head into the studio and the camera manufacturer didn't think to make it easy to deactivate the WYSIWYG feature.
I'd say that for an experienced photographer, WISIWYG is actually better suited for a studio.

Ummmmm...no.  Often in a studio, you want complete control over the lighting, which means all of the light picked up by the camera comes from your strobes.  That means a narrow aperture (I use f/11 - f/14), shutter at Xsync (1/200 s - 1/250 s), and low ISO (100-400).   Those camera settings are intended to eliminate the contribution of ambient light, so in typical studio lighting when the strobes aren't firing, WYS will be essentially black.
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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #255 on: July 11, 2018, 07:43:56 AM »

Kit.

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #256 on: July 11, 2018, 07:55:28 AM »
Not to mention what a PITA it is when you head into the studio and the camera manufacturer didn't think to make it easy to deactivate the WYSIWYG feature.
I'd say that for an experienced photographer, WISIWYG is actually better suited for a studio.

Ummmmm...no.  Often in a studio, you want complete control over the lighting, which means all of the light picked up by the camera comes from your strobes.  That means a narrow aperture (I use f/11 - f/14), shutter at Xsync (1/200 s - 1/250 s), and low ISO (100-400).   Those camera settings are intended to eliminate the contribution of ambient light, so in typical studio lighting when the strobes aren't firing, WYS will be essentially black.
Oh, I was thinking about static subjects and modeling light, where you could just crank up the ISO for the setup.

bwud

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #257 on: July 11, 2018, 08:56:00 AM »
Do it with a MF 200-400mm lens on a perched bird (where you've got to be quick), through a magnified viewfinder, with no IS or IBIS... That was kinda the point.  ;) Please go back and read the beginning of the conversational sidebar.

Here you’re moving the goal posts. Nowhere in the original chain did a moving subject arise, nor did the lack of IBIS. That was a caveat you later added.


BTW: What was your magnification factor on the lamp post? 10X looking through the viewfinder? Looks like you were in "Live View" at 6.2X to me. Not the same. Not what we were talking about.

I have no idea, whatever the camera does. Maybe it was only 6, fine, makes little difference. If you’re concerned with 10X the FOV of 50mm (as in the original post), you should not be brushing off 6.2X the FOV of 400.


Through the viewfinder, sir. Handheld. No tripod, No sandbag (tummy). lol

Yes, I know we were talking about using the viewfinder. Unfortunately I can not hold a camera with a big lens to my face and also hold a second camera on it to show what I’m doing and also manually focus; I’m at least one arm shy of that capability  :P. I did it that way rather than just posting a picture to head off the “I don’t believe that was from a focus magnified manual focus setup” reply.

It’s *easier* and faster to control it when using two hands and the VF rather than one finger while aiming with a breathing “sandbag.” I’ve taken numerous photos, even of birds, with just that configuration.

I'll see what I can do tomorrow with a 200mm lens (to simulate 400mm FOV) on my Olympus. Through the viewfinder and IBIS off since Canon probably won't have IBIS.

Alright, if you want to hamstring your camera to demonstrate that not having new technology makes shooting more difficult, go for it. That’s an obvious conclusion.

Can I do it at 400mm at 10X with all the stabilization turned off aiming quickly at a small subject? Probably not. Will canon have in body stabilization with the first generation? Probably not. Will they eventually? Probably. It’s a powerful tool and while canon can sometimes be slow to adopt, when they do, they typically do it well. Canon’s execution is second to none in this market.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 09:31:09 AM by bwud »

Don Haines

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #258 on: July 11, 2018, 10:17:34 AM »
Not to mention what a PITA it is when you head into the studio and the camera manufacturer didn't think to make it easy to deactivate the WYSIWYG feature.
I'd say that for an experienced photographer, WISIWYG is actually better suited for a studio.

Ummmmm...no.  Often in a studio, you want complete control over the lighting, which means all of the light picked up by the camera comes from your strobes.  That means a narrow aperture (I use f/11 - f/14), shutter at Xsync (1/200 s - 1/250 s), and low ISO (100-400).   Those camera settings are intended to eliminate the contribution of ambient light, so in typical studio lighting when the strobes aren't firing, WYS will be essentially black.
Oh, I was thinking about static subjects and modeling light, where you could just crank up the ISO for the setup.

I do both.....
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bwud

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #259 on: July 11, 2018, 10:32:06 AM »
Not to mention what a PITA it is when you head into the studio and the camera manufacturer didn't think to make it easy to deactivate the WYSIWYG feature.
I'd say that for an experienced photographer, WISIWYG is actually better suited for a studio.

Ummmmm...no.  Often in a studio, you want complete control over the lighting, which means all of the light picked up by the camera comes from your strobes.  That means a narrow aperture (I use f/11 - f/14), shutter at Xsync (1/200 s - 1/250 s), and low ISO (100-400).   Those camera settings are intended to eliminate the contribution of ambient light, so in typical studio lighting when the strobes aren't firing, WYS will be essentially black.
Oh, I was thinking about static subjects and modeling light, where you could just crank up the ISO for the setup.

I do both.....

I use both monolights with modeling lamps, and speedlights.With monos, I tend to shoot mirrorless. With speed lights, I use SLR.

Although my mirrorless camera has a mode to turn off exposure preview (which it perplexingly calls “settings effect”), it is only grossly emulating an optical viewfinder. It’s still displaying a digital signal, presumably with an equivalent “shutter speed” associated with the readrate of the sensor. It would be interesting to see if the EVF is darker in that mode with the Sony A9 since it reads the sensor much more rapidly than the A7 series.

Granted I only have a sample size of two, both from the same manufacturer (Sony a7r ii and a7r iii), but unless other manufacturers have significantly better technology, low light viewfinding is still the domain of SLR.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 10:35:45 AM by bwud »

canonographer

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #260 on: July 11, 2018, 12:15:21 PM »
".... and I would love to see Canon give me a reason to dream about coming back."

A dreamer.  This is ridiculous for someone stating the wonders of what they have just bought into. 

Jack

Thanks for letting me know that my gear obsession is ridiculous, but my wife's way ahead of you on that count.

canonographer

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #261 on: July 11, 2018, 12:19:42 PM »
"Battery life for mirrorless still isn't good. Number of pictures is a poor measure there. The battery in my old 350D lasted for days, adding a second battery in my battery grip was never something I needed to consider. With mirrorless, not having a second battery feels somewhat risky. All this due to the viewfinder and rear screen."

FWIW, I just spent 4 days at the beach with my A7 III and shot about 500 shots, many of which were longer exposure shots of fireworks.

I never charged my battery and came home with more than 60% battery life left.  I don't think my 6D could have done that.

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #261 on: July 11, 2018, 12:19:42 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #262 on: July 11, 2018, 12:28:16 PM »
FWIW, I just spent 4 days at the beach with my A7 III and shot about 500 shots, many of which were longer exposure shots of fireworks.

I never charged my battery and came home with more than 60% battery life left.  I don't think my 6D could have done that.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but there really are two flavors of how I think of battery life comments.

1) If you principally shoot in LiveView, yes, I would disregard the constant battery life naysaying from the SLR crowd.  So landscapers, video folks, possibly product folks, etc. should probably just shrug and pack an extra battery regardless of the platform they are using.

2) If you don't principally shoot in LiveView, I think one has a fair beef on how much longer your battery lasts on an SLR.  That's just the nature of the beast.

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rrcphoto

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #263 on: July 11, 2018, 12:58:29 PM »
And OVF is still better in some ways. Possibly the most expensive mirrorless cameras now have EVFs that have improved immensely but in my experience the WYSIWYG thing is far overrated in most cases. Not to mention what a PITA it is when you head into the studio and the camera manufacturer didn't think to make it easy to deactivate the WYSIWYG feature.
I'd say that for an experienced photographer, WISIWYG is actually better suited for a studio

really?

when I was working out of a studio, I would know what it the look would be like before I even looked behind the viewfinder.  You should know what your lights will do, because you are setting them up with full control over the light and the ratios.  an experienced studio photographer would look like a hack if they were looking through the camera, putting it down, adjusting the lights, looking through the camera again and so on.


Kit.

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #264 on: July 11, 2018, 01:09:28 PM »
Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but there really are two flavors of how I think of battery life comments.

1) If you principally shoot in LiveView, yes, I would disregard the constant battery life naysaying from the SLR crowd.  So landscapers, video folks, possibly product folks, etc. should probably just shrug and pack an extra battery regardless of the platform they are using.

2) If you don't principally shoot in LiveView, I think one has a fair beef on how much longer your battery lasts on an SLR.  That's just the nature of the beast.
Actually, if you shoot in bursts, LiveView could give you much more shots per battery. Think of video as the extreme case.

I'd say that for an experienced photographer, WISIWYG is actually better suited for a studio
really?

when I was working out of a studio, I would know what it the look would be like before I even looked behind the viewfinder.  You should know what your lights will do, because you are setting them up with full control over the light and the ratios.  an experienced studio photographer would look like a hack if they were looking through the camera, putting it down, adjusting the lights, looking through the camera again and so on.
That was my point. You don't really wonder if you need to pull the highlights because you know that you won't (no need for OVF). But if you shoot something glossy, you would still like to see that there are no highlights where you don't want them to be.

jayphotoworks

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #265 on: July 11, 2018, 03:17:31 PM »
FWIW, I just spent 4 days at the beach with my A7 III and shot about 500 shots, many of which were longer exposure shots of fireworks.

I never charged my battery and came home with more than 60% battery life left.  I don't think my 6D could have done that.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but there really are two flavors of how I think of battery life comments.

1) If you principally shoot in LiveView, yes, I would disregard the constant battery life naysaying from the SLR crowd.  So landscapers, video folks, possibly product folks, etc. should probably just shrug and pack an extra battery regardless of the platform they are using.

2) If you don't principally shoot in LiveView, I think one has a fair beef on how much longer your battery lasts on an SLR.  That's just the nature of the beast.

- A

It's actually significantly different for us video folks:

Canon's 5DIV can manage about 90min of 1080p footage with movie AF off using the rear lcd. Sony's A7III can manage about 125mins of actual recording based or 210 mins of continuous recording @ 4K w/ AF on.


rrcphoto

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #266 on: July 11, 2018, 06:34:05 PM »

That was my point. You don't really wonder if you need to pull the highlights because you know that you won't (no need for OVF). But if you shoot something glossy, you would still like to see that there are no highlights where you don't want them to be.

but but.. I'd know that. even if I didn't an EVF wouldn't help because you'd have to fire the flashes and look at the output anyways, there's no way an EVF is going to help you in this case.

the only way this would help you is with continual lighting.

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #267 on: July 13, 2018, 04:33:23 AM »
I'm hoping for a camera the size of a 6D2, with EF mount and will allow you to use EF-S lenses as well (with vignetting when open wide), the almost obligatory LP-6 battery, an a UHS-2 SD slot....

Fine, no problem. Canon should build it. Plus a much more compact FF mirrorless camera for me (and a few others). Things finally could be a lot less bulky and cludgy.   :)



Actually even a bit smaller than A7 III would be good. Sony A7 / 1st gen was more to my liking in terms of size. Form factor I would prefer "rangefinder" style without "fake prism hump" but with a pop-up EVF. Something like a "Sony RX-1RX II on steroids" and with a lens mount. :-)

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #267 on: July 13, 2018, 04:33:23 AM »

Don Haines

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #268 on: July 13, 2018, 11:00:40 AM »
I'm hoping for a camera the size of a 6D2, with EF mount and will allow you to use EF-S lenses as well (with vignetting when open wide), the almost obligatory LP-6 battery, an a UHS-2 SD slot....

Fine, no problem. Canon should build it. Plus a much more compact FF mirrorless camera for me (and a few others). Things finally could be a lot less bulky and cludgy.   :)

Actually even a bit smaller than A7 III would be good. Sony A7 / 1st gen was more to my liking in terms of size. Form factor I would prefer "rangefinder" style without "fake prism hump" but with a pop-up EVF. Something like a "Sony RX-1RX II on steroids" and with a lens mount. :-)

Remember when the M came out, and it only had 2 or three lenses? Technically, there is no reason why Canon could not do the same with a FF mirrorless. Such a form factor would be great for normal to wide angle shooting, but would have almost no benefit for those who want long or fast lenses..... So, just like the M, why can't Canon put out a FF mirrorless that takes a few slow and compact native lenses (and reap real benefits of small size) and use an adaptor to EF for those F1.4 lenses and the long lenses. There is little size benefit to be gained from fast or long lenses on a shorter flange size, so why bother?

As to user interface, the <edit> original <end edit> M interface sucks compared to the 5DIV or even the 6D2, but throw an articulated touchscreen on the back of the mirrorless and you can do an awful lot with just a few buttons. It will never be as good as a full sized body for controls, but it will certainly be good enough... and most certainly better than Sony...

Personally, I think we are going to see both.... An EF sized mirrorless plus a compact mirrorless with a few slow and very compact lenses, plus an EF adaptor. I think that the EF one will be first, and the compact one to soon follow. I can see me (eventually) getting both....

NOTE: If they went crazy with the sealing, plus a couple of constant length super sealed lenses, I would be fighting my way to the front of the line to get the compact one.....
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 11:43:10 AM by Don Haines »
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Jack Douglas

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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #269 on: July 13, 2018, 11:32:22 AM »
I agree on the need for both larger and smaller.  For me it's travel versus serious wildlife scenarios.

Jack
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Re: Canon Will Announce Their First Full Frame Mirrorless in 2018 [CR3]
« Reply #269 on: July 13, 2018, 11:32:22 AM »