July 22, 2018, 02:41:33 PM

Author Topic: Could FF mirrorless tempt 'never-mirrorless' FF SLR folks with features?  (Read 3942 times)

3kramd5

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But eventually the mirrorless bits will far surpass the abilities of the analog bits and some of this today is already at parity. If you consider a scenario where the LV mode of a DSLR gives you eye af+subject detection, 30fps+, e-shutter performance faster than 1/300, no blackouts, fully silent shutter and video modes without operation change, the DSLR bits will almost seem anachronistic...

Probably. In the situations where EVF is applicable, I really enjoyed it for the ~2 years I was using a mirrorless (A7R2). If Sony had put all the ease of use goodness in that generation rather than waiting for the 3, I probably would have kept it.

In some situations (extended use i.e. staring through the finder for maybe hours waiting for a subject to appear or change position, very low light, etc), EVF isn’t really applicable, it uses too much power and causes eye fatigue.

For my uses, EVF is probably applicable >80% of the time, so I’m hoping canon can come up with something which doesn’t fight me to take a picture like the Sony camera did.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 09:41:23 AM by 3kramd5 »

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Mt Spokane Photography

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On a technical point,  how would a optical viewfinder work on a mirrorless camera?
Don't you need a mirror to direct the light (image) to the viewfinder.
could go rangefinder like, but the way i see it is mirrorless will have to be EVF.
Unless they can solve that riddle i will stick with my 1DX2
Fujifilm has had a Hybrid viewfinder for some years now
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2111647539/fujifilm-x100t-announced-with-updated-hybrid-viewfinder
Canon has patents for Hybrid finders which are both optical and evf.
http://www.canonrumors.com/patent-hybrid-viewfinder/http://www.canonrumors.com/patent-canon-application-for-a-hybrid-viewfinder/




NancyP

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The one killer app that I would use a FF mirrorless body for is already out there, and it is called a Cambo Actus mini view camera.

bhf3737

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A full frame EF mount camera with 5D4 features plus:
- silent shutter, not even a whisper
- accurate focus picking and
- accurate exposure setup indicator (e.g. Waveform). As a matter of fact, I don't trust the What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get on a mirrorless camera
would be welcome.
 

PerKr

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For those who have no interest in mirrorless, what would happen if any of the following items/features landed in the first FF mirrorless body?

  • IBIS
  • Tilty-flippy touch screen (in a higher than 6D2 feature set)
  • A new variant of the 5DS sensor with on-chip ADC (i.e. something resembling the 5DS2 sensor)
  • +3 fps over your current FF SLR (presume fully working AF throughout)
  • Thin mount design affords enough space to rear-filter EF lenses that are not front-filterable (possibly through the EF adaptor)
  • Eye AF
  • Ultra-light body design (more than just from mirror removal and body size changes: say, with carbon fiber instead of metal)
  • AF points that almost completely fill the viewfinder -- no more central core of AF points that SLR designs typically have

For those with no interest in mirrorless, Is there a killer app that will change your mind?  Is anything above so attractive to you that if mirrorless was the only way to get it, you'd do it?

In other words, if a critical thing you are interested in drops in the new FF mirrorless rig, do you bite the bullet and get the FF mirrorless rig, or just wait/hope that particular tech/feature makes it into your preferred SLR slot?

(Again, I'm specifically asking the 'never-mirrorless' camp of FF shooters.  If you are interested in getting an FF mirrorless rig, you are not who I am looking for with this, thx.)

- A

IBIS - could be had in a DLSR, not a mirrorless thing per se
Tilty-flippy-touchscreen - see above
New sensor - really?
more FPS - nope
Thin mount design - I assume you mean a short flange distance rather than a thin mount. And no. But an adapter that takes filters is a good idea.
Eye AF - no
Ultra-light body - no. I had the opportunity to check out an olympus M10.2 last weekend. It felt solid and nice. Then the Sony A6300. It felt like a cheap toy. The weight of my current camera body isn't an issue, it's the weight of the lenses that gets to be troublesome.
AF-points filling the viewfinder - no

and do stop talking about "apps" in cameras when talking about features.

The one thing I want in a full frame mirrorless that couldn't be had in a DSLR is a full-on silent mode. An electronic shutter with fast read-out. This could partially be had in a DSLR in live-view mode though.
The one thing a mirrorless can never give me is an optical viewfinder that can be used when the camera is off. I'm growing somewhat tired of WYSIWYG viewfinders really though they are sometimes useful (often enough they're just another distraction though)

Durf

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For those who have no interest in mirrorless, what would happen if any of the following items/features landed in the first FF mirrorless body?

  • IBIS
  • Tilty-flippy touch screen (in a higher than 6D2 feature set)
  • A new variant of the 5DS sensor with on-chip ADC (i.e. something resembling the 5DS2 sensor)
  • +3 fps over your current FF SLR (presume fully working AF throughout)
  • Thin mount design affords enough space to rear-filter EF lenses that are not front-filterable (possibly through the EF adaptor)
  • Eye AF
  • Ultra-light body design (more than just from mirror removal and body size changes: say, with carbon fiber instead of metal)
  • AF points that almost completely fill the viewfinder -- no more central core of AF points that SLR designs typically have

For those with no interest in mirrorless, Is there a killer app that will change your mind?  Is anything above so attractive to you that if mirrorless was the only way to get it, you'd do it?

In other words, if a critical thing you are interested in drops in the new FF mirrorless rig, do you bite the bullet and get the FF mirrorless rig, or just wait/hope that particular tech/feature makes it into your preferred SLR slot?

(Again, I'm specifically asking the 'never-mirrorless' camp of FF shooters.  If you are interested in getting an FF mirrorless rig, you are not who I am looking for with this, thx.)

- A

IBIS - could be had in a DLSR, not a mirrorless thing per se
Tilty-flippy-touchscreen - see above
New sensor - really?
more FPS - nope
Thin mount design - I assume you mean a short flange distance rather than a thin mount. And no. But an adapter that takes filters is a good idea.
Eye AF - no
Ultra-light body - no. I had the opportunity to check out an olympus M10.2 last weekend. It felt solid and nice. Then the Sony A6300. It felt like a cheap toy. The weight of my current camera body isn't an issue, it's the weight of the lenses that gets to be troublesome.
AF-points filling the viewfinder - no

and do stop talking about "apps" in cameras when talking about features.

The one thing I want in a full frame mirrorless that couldn't be had in a DSLR is a full-on silent mode. An electronic shutter with fast read-out. This could partially be had in a DSLR in live-view mode though.
The one thing a mirrorless can never give me is an optical viewfinder that can be used when the camera is off. I'm growing somewhat tired of WYSIWYG viewfinders really though they are sometimes useful (often enough they're just another distraction though)

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GammyKnee

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I'm not fervently against mirrorless, I just think that presently the disadvantages outweigh the advantages for me.

The list of features in the opening post don't particularly interest me, except for IBIS which I don't think is necessarily tied to mirrorless. For me, mirrorless has the following appeal:

- Fewer hassles with lens calibration
- Much better support (EVF) for manually focusing lenses, especially older and/or non-Canon lenses
- Mechanism-free shooting (mirrorless plus electronic shutter); silent shooting with minimal physical wear
- More flexibility over what info is shown in the VF

The drawbacks I see are:
- Inferior battery life
- Weight and ergonomics. Forget the idea that mirrorless has to be smaller/lighter and just give me a well balanced body with good ergonomics. Like a current DSLR.
- EVF. Despite all the benefits it can bring, can it really match an OVF?
- Potentially more frequent sensor cleaning
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ahsanford

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Thanks for the feedback, all.  I think I tangled together a few different questions rattling around my brain:

1) For those with no interest in mirrorless, would feature X -- something either not possible in an SLR or 99% unlikely for Canon to deliver in an SLR (IBIS) -- weaken your resolve to not get mirrorless?

2) For those with no interest in mirrorless, do you want something that will eventually come to SLRs badly enough right now to snap up an FF mirrorless body if it is the first body to offer it?  Examples here might be a 5-series spec body with a tilty-flippy touchscreen, a second-gen 5DS (high res + on-chip ADC) sensor before the 5DS2 comes out, wireless speedlite master control on board, etc.

I'm (clearly inartfully) trying to tease out if the never mirrorless camp can be 'feature-set bribed' into changing their mind, if their disdain for mirrorless can be trumped by something they've always wanted, etc.

- A

cayenne

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A full frame EF mount camera with 5D4 features plus:
- silent shutter, not even a whisper
- accurate focus picking and
- accurate exposure setup indicator (e.g. Waveform). As a matter of fact, I don't trust the What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get on a mirrorless camera
would be welcome.

I'm curious...will they allow 100% "silent" mirrorless cameras (do they already)?

I mean, every modern cell phone I know of, makes a sound when it takes a picture, and I thought I'd read this was largely due to South Korea and maybe also Japan, requiring this to help prevent up skirt photos being taken.

Would this possibly also effect mirrorless cameras?

C

ahsanford

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I'm not fervently against mirrorless, I just think that presently the disadvantages outweigh the advantages for me.

Solid list, and I agree strongly on EVFs being the next step after Canon took manual focusing screens away.

But you and I will both be shooting mirrorless someday, it sounds.  We are not the droids I'm looking for.  I want the 'you can pry my OVF out of my cold, dead hands' bumper sticker people with this query. 

What features have they wanted that either (a) mirrorless inherently can deliver more easily or (b) mirrorless has a shot of getting as a new platform in a way that the mature FF SLR platform would never get.

I want the 'Oh, damn. Mirrorless got feature X. I've always wanted that.  Either that's never coming to an SLR or I don't want to wait for it to get there.  I think I may have to get this mirrorless body.'

- A

ahsanford

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I'm curious...will they allow 100% "silent" mirrorless cameras (do they already)?

The difference between mechanically quiet and completely quiet with mirrorless (I thought) was about a mechanical (quiet) shutter vs. an electronic (completely quiet) shutter.  So mirrorless could shoot completely quietly if it puts an e-shutter in there and the lens doesn't have some horrific old squeaky micromotor AF setup or a 1st gen IS system (which could be turned off, in fairness).

As for legally mandated electronic shutter noises for privacy reasons, that's news to me.  I thought that it was put into digital cameras ages ago for the added distinct 'moment feel' of a shutter button press.  At least in the US you can defeat the iPhone shutter noise.  So it may be a regional thing that can be managed in firmware. 

But our Toyota Priuses still make that artificial whirring noise so pedestrians and cyclists don't get hit in traffic.   ;D

- A

Kit.

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I mean, every modern cell phone I know of, makes a sound when it takes a picture, and I thought I'd read this was largely due to South Korea and maybe also Japan, requiring this to help prevent up skirt photos being taken.
My Nexus 5X is silent.

Anyway, video recording usually doesn't produce extra sounds.

What features have they wanted that either (a) mirrorless inherently can deliver more easily or (b) mirrorless has a shot of getting as a new platform in a way that the mature FF SLR platform would never get.
Pocketability. One could even drop the back LCD screen and replace it with a parallax OVF like in the film P&S cameras (or, better, a combo OVF/EVF) to make it more pocketable.

Mikehit

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A full frame EF mount camera with 5D4 features plus:
- silent shutter, not even a whisper
- accurate focus picking and
- accurate exposure setup indicator (e.g. Waveform). As a matter of fact, I don't trust the What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get on a mirrorless camera
would be welcome.

I'm curious...will they allow 100% "silent" mirrorless cameras (do they already)?

I mean, every modern cell phone I know of, makes a sound when it takes a picture, and I thought I'd read this was largely due to South Korea and maybe also Japan, requiring this to help prevent up skirt photos being taken.

Would this possibly also effect mirrorless cameras?

C

My Panasonic (Gx7, G80) and Olympus (E-M 5) all have totally silent shutters.

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johnf3f

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So long as it has an optical viewfinder, pro body size and strength, very fast + accurate AF, built in vertical grip and large 3 cell battery packs then I would certainly consider one. Not sure how you get an OVF on a mirrorless - but that is for the manufacturers to sort out if they want my money ;)
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Mikehit

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Not sure how you get an OVF on a mirrorless
rangefinder styling....

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