July 21, 2018, 11:08:37 PM

Author Topic: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]  (Read 14688 times)

edoorn

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #75 on: July 12, 2018, 08:12:39 AM »
I'm not sure Canon can afford to release a lack lustre ff mirrorless. Sony has raised the bar to a new standard and the Nikon offerings (mind you; this is Nikon's first serious attempt at a mirrorless, if you ignore the 1 camera's) seem to be on par with that. Anything less and I'm quite sure a significant people interested in mirrorless FF will consider switching and lose confidence. So they need it to be a very good and worthy camera. They've had experience now with several M bodies so this should be no limitation.

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #75 on: July 12, 2018, 08:12:39 AM »

BillB

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #76 on: July 12, 2018, 08:13:50 AM »
People are expecting too much from this very first iteration.

I think this is probably the right way to look at it. Look how far the M-series has come since its first release.

it unfortunately has become "the Canon way of looking at it".

Each iteration of their cameras since about 2008 [when they lost leadership in CMOS sensors] matches roughly the specs that previous gen product should already have had to be fully competitive in IQ, functionality and performance.

eg:
* 5D3 had AF system that definitely should have been on 5D2 already
* 5D4 got a sensor that would have been about competitive at time 5D3 was launched
* EOS M3 had specs that would have been about competitive with "best in class" at the time when original EOS M was launched [and failed in market due to stupid Canon demanding an MSRP of 899 USD for it; so they had to firesale it at 299 ...  ;D
* EOS M5 should have had M50 sensor / DP-AF
* EOS 6D II ... oh well. It might have been roughly competitive at time 6D was launched 
etc. etc.

So Canon should have rolled out the 5DIII AF in 2008?  And the 6D should have had a dual pixel sensor (albeit without on chip ADC), along with a tilty-floppy screen and a touch screen interface in 2012?  I know some people are into counterfactual history, but this is silly.

rjbray01

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #77 on: July 12, 2018, 08:18:41 AM »
If these announcements in September don't offer a compelling competitor product to Sony's Alpha range and any other cameras of a similar spec then I think its inevitable they will lose that momentum. 

With the greatest of respect to you, people have been coming on these forums for years saying 'if Canon' don't do something soon they'll start to lose sales', and it's never happened. Why is *now* the crucial time? Each manufacturer has had its basic strategy for years - some characterise it as, Sony innovative/desperate to get a product to sell well, Canon conservative/risk averse - and we haven't seen a seismic shift in sales. Nor has the 'coming mirrorless revolution', as some have imagined it, changed the scene at more than a glacial pace.

I think from the data we have, anouncing glitzy, amazing-sounding products and getting praise from reviewers absolutely isn't the way to be a market leader, in this sector at least.

The reason now is different is because practically every potential camera buyer is already carrying  an outstanding camera built into their mobile phone.

The camera sales market is shrinking : with increasingly complex camera functions being addressed by the phone capabilities.

I would expect fewer MILC sales to translate to fewer suppliers : survival of the fittest.


fullstop

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #78 on: July 12, 2018, 08:37:31 AM »
yes. touch-sensitive "vari-angle" LCDs were already invented and implemented in Canon EOS 650D//Rebel T4i  announced June 8, 2012.

Quote
The EOS 650D also becomes the first SLR from any manufacturer to feature a touchscreen. This is of the capacitive (contact sensitive) rather than resistive (pressure sensitive) type, behaving like that of a typical smartphone. In Live View and Movie modes the screen can be used to specify the point of focus and (optionally) release the shutter. It also supports iPhone-like multi-touch and gestures.

But hell no, the 6D [announced after 650D on September 17, 2012] could of course not feature such an "advanced" feature. It had to be reserved for the otherwise useless 6D Mk. II years later. This is exactly the kind of marketing nerfing that is so irksome with Canon.

kiwiengr

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #79 on: July 12, 2018, 08:39:54 AM »

The reason now is different is because practically every potential camera buyer is already carrying  an outstanding camera built into their mobile phone.

The camera sales market is shrinking : with increasingly complex camera functions being addressed by the phone capabilities.

I would expect fewer MILC sales to translate to fewer suppliers : survival of the fittest.

Rubbish... one has a good smart phone (S8)... one has an excellent DSLR (5D4). I don't use the camera to make phone calls.. and the reverse option applies.
5DIV, 5DII, 1DII, EF11~24L, EF24~105L, Sigma 135 Art, EF 200 f2.8L, EF 300 f2.8L MkII

3kramd5

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #80 on: July 12, 2018, 08:44:38 AM »
otoh IBIS not very likely with Canon

I think it’s just a matter of time. Maybe not the next released camera or two, but they will eventually implement it.

Mikehit

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #81 on: July 12, 2018, 08:55:08 AM »


Each iteration of their cameras since about 2008 [when they lost leadership in CMOS sensors] matches roughly the specs that previous gen product should already have had to be fully competitive in IQ, functionality and performance.


You seem to have an odd definition of 'competitive'. Everything Canon has done has outsold the Sony equivalent so it would suggest that for the customer, everything they have done has been 'competitive'.

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #81 on: July 12, 2018, 08:55:08 AM »

BillB

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #82 on: July 12, 2018, 09:09:27 AM »
yes. touch-sensitive "vari-angle" LCDs were already invented and implemented in Canon EOS 650D//Rebel T4i  announced June 8, 2012.

Quote
The EOS 650D also becomes the first SLR from any manufacturer to feature a touchscreen. This is of the capacitive (contact sensitive) rather than resistive (pressure sensitive) type, behaving like that of a typical smartphone. In Live View and Movie modes the screen can be used to specify the point of focus and (optionally) release the shutter. It also supports iPhone-like multi-touch and gestures.

But hell no, the 6D [announced after 650D on September 17, 2012] could of course not feature such an "advanced" feature. It had to be reserved for the otherwise useless 6D Mk. II years later. This is exactly the kind of marketing nerfing that is so irksome with Canon.

So Canon was state of the art in touchscreen in 2012.  They were state of the art in 2017.  But you think the should have been 2017 state of the art in 2012.  Got it.

rjbray01

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #83 on: July 12, 2018, 09:13:25 AM »

The reason now is different is because practically every potential camera buyer is already carrying  an outstanding camera built into their mobile phone.

The camera sales market is shrinking : with increasingly complex camera functions being addressed by the phone capabilities.

I would expect fewer MILC sales to translate to fewer suppliers : survival of the fittest.

Rubbish... one has a good smart phone (S8)... one has an excellent DSLR (5D4). I don't use the camera to make phone calls.. and the reverse option applies.

that "reverse option" being "I don't use my phone to take pictures"

hmm ... not sure you are in the majority there

Kit.

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #84 on: July 12, 2018, 09:55:35 AM »
The reason now is different is because practically every potential camera buyer is already carrying  an outstanding camera built into their mobile phone.

The camera sales market is shrinking : with increasingly complex camera functions being addressed by the phone capabilities.

I would expect fewer MILC sales to translate to fewer suppliers : survival of the fittest.
Moving a camera design toward a smartphone camera design is a sure way to lose competition against smartphones.

Don Haines

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #85 on: July 12, 2018, 09:59:36 AM »
yes. touch-sensitive "vari-angle" LCDs were already invented and implemented in Canon EOS 650D//Rebel T4i  announced June 8, 2012.

Quote
The EOS 650D also becomes the first SLR from any manufacturer to feature a touchscreen. This is of the capacitive (contact sensitive) rather than resistive (pressure sensitive) type, behaving like that of a typical smartphone. In Live View and Movie modes the screen can be used to specify the point of focus and (optionally) release the shutter. It also supports iPhone-like multi-touch and gestures.

But hell no, the 6D [announced after 650D on September 17, 2012] could of course not feature such an "advanced" feature. It had to be reserved for the otherwise useless 6D Mk. II years later. This is exactly the kind of marketing nerfing that is so irksome with Canon.
Canon is a conservative company. If you want to have state of the art, they are the wrong company to get your camera from. You would be far better off to sell all your gear and get Panasonic, after all, they are "slightly ahead of out time".....

Seriously though, companies like Panasonic are going to introduce new features and gadgetry before a company like Canon will. And be prepared to upgrade on every model release to make sure that you have the best and newest....

All Canon has to offer are cameras where they have taken the time to make sure everything works properly, and a very good lens lineup. Who wants a camera that they can depend on instead of the latest sensor-shift pixel shuffling interpretation... No pro wants a simple unit that "just works no matter what" or the best service in the industry...or the kind of stability where they can take the lens off of their 20D, pop out the battery, and use both on the latest release...

Seriously, Canon is a conservative company......
The best camera is the one in your hands

sdz

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #86 on: July 12, 2018, 10:03:42 AM »
I'm not sure Canon can afford to release a lack lustre ff mirrorless. Sony has raised the bar to a new standard and the Nikon offerings (mind you; this is Nikon's first serious attempt at a mirrorless, if you ignore the 1 camera's) seem to be on par with that. Anything less and I'm quite sure a significant people interested in mirrorless FF will consider switching and lose confidence. So they need it to be a very good and worthy camera. They've had experience now with several M bodies so this should be no limitation.

This. Canon sells cameras and lenses, but it is losing the image quality race at the high end save for Canon color, at which it excels. So, Canon faces a technical challange. Dropping the mirror is less important than achieving better sensor tech and on camera computing power.

bergstrom

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #87 on: July 12, 2018, 10:05:53 AM »
what worries em is the "at least one mirrorless camera will be announced". Can they not release the BIG one  and focus all their attention on that and  blow away the specs of the sony a7iii and be the camera that people can't stop talking about. Or am I just asking too much?

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #87 on: July 12, 2018, 10:05:53 AM »

amorse

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #88 on: July 12, 2018, 10:10:35 AM »

The reason now is different is because practically every potential camera buyer is already carrying  an outstanding camera built into their mobile phone.

The camera sales market is shrinking : with increasingly complex camera functions being addressed by the phone capabilities.

I would expect fewer MILC sales to translate to fewer suppliers : survival of the fittest.

Rubbish... one has a good smart phone (S8)... one has an excellent DSLR (5D4). I don't use the camera to make phone calls.. and the reverse option applies.

that "reverse option" being "I don't use my phone to take pictures"

hmm ... not sure you are in the majority there
I think there is a considerable difference in intent with phone photography. 

I have a reasonably good smartphone and a 5D IV as my main camera.  Personally, I never use my smartphone for artistic photography - I've just been far too spoiled by the low light performance of a proper DSLR.  In my experience, most (not all) phone photos fall apart in low light and with any sort of magnification or pixel peeping.  For now, I really only use my phone's camera to take the odd selfie with friends at events, or take pictures of my car at the airport so I know where I parked - anything where quality isn't what I'm looking for: only convenience. 

I think this is why the compact market has diminished - a phone camera is very well suited to those uses, but as soon as there are specific quality demands a proper ILC is hard to beat.  I hate to use my own anecdotal evidence, but I have seen quite a number of people who have purchased up-market ILCs because they got into photography using their phone, and then started seeking out some of the benefits provided by a more advanced camera.  If anything, I would suspect that the camera phone market has largely killed the compact camera market but pushed remaining buyers up market into ILCs. 

Sure, creative software and pre-packaged formulas for specific photo effects are now accessible to smartphone users to create an ILC-like result, but at its core this is contrary to the value of ILCs.  ILCs allow the user to create whatever they can imagine (for those that are willing to learn how), while smartphone effects only replicate a finite number of pre-packaged things users might like to create.  ILCs give you control to create anything, while smartphones give you a menu of things they can deliver.  There is value in both propositions to be fair, but neither can replace the other currently.

amorse

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #89 on: July 12, 2018, 10:31:28 AM »
what worries em is the "at least one mirrorless camera will be announced". Can they not release the BIG one  and focus all their attention on that and  blow away the specs of the sony a7iii and be the camera that people can't stop talking about. Or am I just asking too much?
I don't think you're asking too much, but also I don't think that is in line with Canon's business model, so I don't think they will do it.  I don't think Canon wants to be competing on specs or else they'd have to re-release gear very rapidly - i.e. Sony releases a new camera and now Canon has to respond right away?  That's an expensive proposition with little benefit to Canon.  Their current business model has put them in the lead, so I doubt they'd stray far from what they're already doing.

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #89 on: July 12, 2018, 10:31:28 AM »