July 20, 2018, 01:13:06 AM

Author Topic: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]  (Read 14490 times)

fullstop

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #90 on: July 12, 2018, 10:33:35 AM »
what worries em is the "at least one mirrorless camera will be announced". Can they not release the BIG one  and focus all their attention on that and  blow away the specs of the sony a7iii and be the camera that people can't stop talking about. Or am I just asking too much?

not for me. And not by the standards Canon customers should apply towards a supplier.

But ... according to a few forum members here, I guess you are asking way too much of Canon. "Canon is a conservative company" describes a fact - but often it also smells of "condoning/appreciating/excusing that". 

Especially when it should not be technically or economically "impossible" for Canon to "blow away Sony A7 III specs". Well, to really get on par with those Sony sensors, Canon might have to procure a new sensor fab,  but many of the Sony specs would be really easy to match or surpass.  Starting with a smart choice of lens mount parameters for their FF mirrorless system. On that one I have full confidence in Canon, on most other areas ... not so. They are an ULTRA-conservative company and worse, they have been largely resting on their laurels for the last 10 years. :-)

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #90 on: July 12, 2018, 10:33:35 AM »

rjbray01

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2018, 10:39:29 AM »

The reason now is different is because practically every potential camera buyer is already carrying  an outstanding camera built into their mobile phone.

The camera sales market is shrinking : with increasingly complex camera functions being addressed by the phone capabilities.

I would expect fewer MILC sales to translate to fewer suppliers : survival of the fittest.

Rubbish... one has a good smart phone (S8)... one has an excellent DSLR (5D4). I don't use the camera to make phone calls.. and the reverse option applies.

that "reverse option" being "I don't use my phone to take pictures"

hmm ... not sure you are in the majority there
I think there is a considerable difference in intent with phone photography. 

I have a reasonably good smartphone and a 5D IV as my main camera.  Personally, I never use my smartphone for artistic photography - I've just been far too spoiled by the low light performance of a proper DSLR.  In my experience, most (not all) phone photos fall apart in low light and with any sort of magnification or pixel peeping.  For now, I really only use my phone's camera to take the odd selfie with friends at events, or take pictures of my car at the airport so I know where I parked - anything where quality isn't what I'm looking for: only convenience. 

I think this is why the compact market has diminished - a phone camera is very well suited to those uses, but as soon as there are specific quality demands a proper ILC is hard to beat.  I hate to use my own anecdotal evidence, but I have seen quite a number of people who have purchased up-market ILCs because they got into photography using their phone, and then started seeking out some of the benefits provided by a more advanced camera.  If anything, I would suspect that the camera phone market has largely killed the compact camera market but pushed remaining buyers up market into ILCs. 

Sure, creative software and pre-packaged formulas for specific photo effects are now accessible to smartphone users to create an ILC-like result, but at its core this is contrary to the value of ILCs.  ILCs allow the user to create whatever they can imagine (for those that are willing to learn how), while smartphone effects only replicate a finite number of pre-packaged things users might like to create.  ILCs give you control to create anything, while smartphones give you a menu of things they can deliver.  There is value in both propositions to be fair, but neither can replace the other currently.

It might not be much longer until mobile phones contain arrays of lenses, which will do for their cameras what arrays of radio telescopes did for astronomy ...

https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/research-news/optical-phased-array-replaces-camera-lens-2017-06/

To quote the article "Once scaled up, this technology can make lenses and thick cameras obsolete."


bokehmon22

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #92 on: July 12, 2018, 10:48:10 AM »
My Best Guess for the FF specs.

30.4mp- new sensor with BIS (we have seen patents that canon is working on BIS sensors). Dynamic range needs to be about 1 stop better then the current 5d4. This would make it about equal to anything currently out there from Sony.
Digic 8 or 8+ processor
Excellent EVF
DPAF with the fastest AF performance of any Canon mirrorless camera to date (I would say by far)
3.0" Vari Angle LCD Screen
4k, no crop
Wifi, NFC, Bluetooth
5 Axis Image Stabilization (currently on M50)
10 FPS (minimum)-m50 does 9.5

Eye AF (currently on m50)
200+ AF points (m50 has 143)


Depending on how they are adapting the EF lenses to this camera, with specs like that it would be a homerun. I would pay $3000 for that camera.

Everything sounds good. I'm more cautious about 1 stop DR. Maybe 1/2 stop improvement and no IBIS.
4K with lesser crop and less bitrate and color depth and more flexible file format.
I also expect EF compatible mount either via adapater (new mount) or native.

3kramd5

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #93 on: July 12, 2018, 10:52:16 AM »

The reason now is different is because practically every potential camera buyer is already carrying  an outstanding camera built into their mobile phone.

The camera sales market is shrinking : with increasingly complex camera functions being addressed by the phone capabilities.

I would expect fewer MILC sales to translate to fewer suppliers : survival of the fittest.

Rubbish... one has a good smart phone (S8)... one has an excellent DSLR (5D4). I don't use the camera to make phone calls.. and the reverse option applies.

that "reverse option" being "I don't use my phone to take pictures"

hmm ... not sure you are in the majority there
I think there is a considerable difference in intent with phone photography. 

I have a reasonably good smartphone and a 5D IV as my main camera.  Personally, I never use my smartphone for artistic photography - I've just been far too spoiled by the low light performance of a proper DSLR.  In my experience, most (not all) phone photos fall apart in low light and with any sort of magnification or pixel peeping.  For now, I really only use my phone's camera to take the odd selfie with friends at events, or take pictures of my car at the airport so I know where I parked - anything where quality isn't what I'm looking for: only convenience. 

I think this is why the compact market has diminished - a phone camera is very well suited to those uses, but as soon as there are specific quality demands a proper ILC is hard to beat.  I hate to use my own anecdotal evidence, but I have seen quite a number of people who have purchased up-market ILCs because they got into photography using their phone, and then started seeking out some of the benefits provided by a more advanced camera.  If anything, I would suspect that the camera phone market has largely killed the compact camera market but pushed remaining buyers up market into ILCs. 

Sure, creative software and pre-packaged formulas for specific photo effects are now accessible to smartphone users to create an ILC-like result, but at its core this is contrary to the value of ILCs.  ILCs allow the user to create whatever they can imagine (for those that are willing to learn how), while smartphone effects only replicate a finite number of pre-packaged things users might like to create.  ILCs give you control to create anything, while smartphones give you a menu of things they can deliver.  There is value in both propositions to be fair, but neither can replace the other currently.

It might not be much longer until mobile phones contain arrays of lenses, which will do for their cameras what arrays of radio telescopes did for astronomy ...

https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/research-news/optical-phased-array-replaces-camera-lens-2017-06/

To quote the article "Once scaled up, this technology can make lenses and thick cameras obsolete."



Light is supposedly working on a phone. Their L16 camera wasn’t exactly a resounding success, maybe they’ll have more by pairing it with cellular farcebook and twitter connectivity.

amorse

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #94 on: July 12, 2018, 11:04:41 AM »
I think there is a considerable difference in intent with phone photography. 

I have a reasonably good smartphone and a 5D IV as my main camera.  Personally, I never use my smartphone for artistic photography - I've just been far too spoiled by the low light performance of a proper DSLR.  In my experience, most (not all) phone photos fall apart in low light and with any sort of magnification or pixel peeping.  For now, I really only use my phone's camera to take the odd selfie with friends at events, or take pictures of my car at the airport so I know where I parked - anything where quality isn't what I'm looking for: only convenience. 

I think this is why the compact market has diminished - a phone camera is very well suited to those uses, but as soon as there are specific quality demands a proper ILC is hard to beat.  I hate to use my own anecdotal evidence, but I have seen quite a number of people who have purchased up-market ILCs because they got into photography using their phone, and then started seeking out some of the benefits provided by a more advanced camera.  If anything, I would suspect that the camera phone market has largely killed the compact camera market but pushed remaining buyers up market into ILCs. 

Sure, creative software and pre-packaged formulas for specific photo effects are now accessible to smartphone users to create an ILC-like result, but at its core this is contrary to the value of ILCs.  ILCs allow the user to create whatever they can imagine (for those that are willing to learn how), while smartphone effects only replicate a finite number of pre-packaged things users might like to create.  ILCs give you control to create anything, while smartphones give you a menu of things they can deliver.  There is value in both propositions to be fair, but neither can replace the other currently.

It might not be much longer until mobile phones contain arrays of lenses, which will do for their cameras what arrays of radio telescopes did for astronomy ...

https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/research-news/optical-phased-array-replaces-camera-lens-2017-06/

To quote the article "Once scaled up, this technology can make lenses and thick cameras obsolete."

No doubt technology will keep moving and current formats will not likely hold back the tide.  As it stands today, and for at least the next few years, there is a distinct gap between what a phone can do and what an ILC can do - and both are targeting different market segments.  I'm confident that this won't always be true, but it is today.  My only point was that right now and for the next little while there will certainly be a market for dedicated cameras, especially those which provide functionality not currently available on a phone.

stochasticmotions

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #95 on: July 12, 2018, 11:26:37 AM »
Personally, I can't wait to see what Canon has up its sleeve...also interested in what Nikon is going to put out there as well.  Each of these companies is going to show us something that will excite some photographers and will disappoint others, but it will be good to see the direction each is wanting to take us.

It has taken Sony numerous generations of changes to get to the point that the cameras they have now work well and provide some unique things and will take another couple of generations to get things that Canon and Nikon learned years ago about how photographers work efficiently.

If Canon can take the excellent dual pixel autofocus they have and be able to drive their lenses close to as quickly as the latest Sony telephoto do for subject tracking, I will be very impressed.  I doubt that will happen right away but I think that is more to do with how the current lens hardware and software is designed to be driven rather than limits of what Canon can do with the new camera.

The bigger dark horse in the race is Nikon, they have not yet shown on sensor autofocus that is anywhere close to Canon or Sony for video or tracking.  Nikon's latest SLRs are excellent but they are a mystery as to where they will come into this market this time.



ahsanford

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2018, 11:43:38 AM »
The bigger dark horse in the race is Nikon, they have not yet shown on sensor autofocus that is anywhere close to Canon or Sony for video or tracking.  Nikon's latest SLRs are excellent but they are a mystery as to where they will come into this market this time.

Nikon also has the Ghost of Tiny Mount Diameter's Past past to contend with.  They couldn't support autofocusing f/1.2 lenses as Canon did, and Canon folks constantly reminded them of that.  So I'm not surprised at all that Nikonians are pride-wise geeked about the prospect of these f/0.95 lenses that have been rumored -- I surely wouldn't want to have to carry those lenses, though!   :o

Sony is (IMHO) a far more clear and present danger to Nikon than Canon.  Canon is the bigger target, surely, but it has been preparing for FF mirrorless with core tech for some time.  Nikon is (on paper) less prepared to offer a competitive FF mirrorless offering.  Further, Nikon's been running with stellar Sony sensors forever, and the last 5-10 years have shown that sensors don't flip marketshare.  Nikon needs core technology upgrades (liveview, video, something resembling DPAF) far more than they need to shut up the f/1.2 boo-birds. 

So even if they go with a spec beast of a mirrorless D850 as rumors imply, if it handles poorly, has iffy AF, etc. they will be in some serious trouble. 

- A

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2018, 11:43:38 AM »

rrcphoto

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #97 on: July 12, 2018, 11:49:10 AM »
The bigger dark horse in the race is Nikon, they have not yet shown on sensor autofocus that is anywhere close to Canon or Sony for video or tracking.  Nikon's latest SLRs are excellent but they are a mystery as to where they will come into this market this time.

Nikon also has the Ghost of Tiny Mount Diameter's Past past to contend with.  They couldn't support autofocusing f/1.2 lenses as Canon did, and Canon folks constantly reminded them of that.  So I'm not surprised at all that Nikonians are pride-wise geeked about the prospect of these f/0.95 lenses that have been rumored -- I surely wouldn't want to have to carry those lenses, though!

the 52 / .9 is 10 inches long.

:o

ahsanford

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #98 on: July 12, 2018, 12:05:18 PM »
The bigger dark horse in the race is Nikon, they have not yet shown on sensor autofocus that is anywhere close to Canon or Sony for video or tracking.  Nikon's latest SLRs are excellent but they are a mystery as to where they will come into this market this time.

Nikon also has the Ghost of Tiny Mount Diameter's Past past to contend with.  They couldn't support autofocusing f/1.2 lenses as Canon did, and Canon folks constantly reminded them of that.  So I'm not surprised at all that Nikonians are pride-wise geeked about the prospect of these f/0.95 lenses that have been rumored -- I surely wouldn't want to have to carry those lenses, though!

the 52 / .9 is 10 inches long.

:o

Again:  No one said (a) that lens is ever happening or (b) a f/0.9 lens was a good idea.

But fanboys will lord that over Canon ad infinitum.  Or at least until this next mirrorless venture is as big a disaster as the Nikon 1 was and Canon can buy Nikon.  8)

- A

ethanz

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #99 on: July 12, 2018, 12:22:37 PM »
I'd really like an f/0.9 50mm lens. I think its a great idea.

 ;) ;D
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 12:40:05 PM by ethanz »
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rrcphoto

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #100 on: July 12, 2018, 12:36:50 PM »
I'd really like an f/0.9 50mm lens. I think its a great idea.

10 inch long 52mm prime? oh okayyyy

ahsanford

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #101 on: July 12, 2018, 12:41:37 PM »
I'd really like an f/0.9 50mm lens. I think its a great idea.

10 inch long 52mm prime? oh okayyyy

There certainly is a market for it -- but it's not remotely a practical, daily driver sort of instrument. 

Meanwhile, Canon gets you an f/1.2 the size of a baseball.  That lens is at half the weddings I attend.  #doublegaussftw

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stochasticmotions

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #102 on: July 12, 2018, 12:59:12 PM »
The bigger dark horse in the race is Nikon, they have not yet shown on sensor autofocus that is anywhere close to Canon or Sony for video or tracking.  Nikon's latest SLRs are excellent but they are a mystery as to where they will come into this market this time.

Nikon also has the Ghost of Tiny Mount Diameter's Past past to contend with.  They couldn't support autofocusing f/1.2 lenses as Canon did, and Canon folks constantly reminded them of that.  So I'm not surprised at all that Nikonians are pride-wise geeked about the prospect of these f/0.95 lenses that have been rumored -- I surely wouldn't want to have to carry those lenses, though!   :o

Sony is (IMHO) a far more clear and present danger to Nikon than Canon.  Canon is the bigger target, surely, but it has been preparing for FF mirrorless with core tech for some time.  Nikon is (on paper) less prepared to offer a competitive FF mirrorless offering.  Further, Nikon's been running with stellar Sony sensors forever, and the last 5-10 years have shown that sensors don't flip marketshare.  Nikon needs core technology upgrades (liveview, video, something resembling DPAF) far more than they need to shut up the f/1.2 boo-birds. 

So even if they go with a spec beast of a mirrorless D850 as rumors imply, if it handles poorly, has iffy AF, etc. they will be in some serious trouble. 

- A

I have to agree, especially since I doubt Sony will provide Nikon with any of their sensors with pdaf (they haven't so far). 

Sony have one current ace up their sleeve with the A9 stacked sensor tech, but they do have to concentrate on ensuring that they don't only concentrate on sensor to improve each generation.  So far they have done so.
 
Both Canon and Sony also have significant history in video and some of that is useful in producing good mirrorless cameras. 

Canon's reputation for reliable cameras, and nearly no camera releases with significant problems will continue to ensure that people will continue to go with them.

For me the tipping point for which camera system I use most often for nature/bird photography was the Sony A7III, 100-400GM and when needed the 1.4 teleconverter.  That was the first time that autofocus was faster, more reliable, and had usable burst rates and a reasonable buffer.  Of course that is comparing to a 5DIII which is significantly older and 5Ds which was never built for burst shooting.  If Canon can come close to matching A7 capabilities with the typical quality of a 5D body I would likely buy it even at new 5d prices.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 01:15:09 PM by stochasticmotions »

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #102 on: July 12, 2018, 12:59:12 PM »

admiralburns

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #103 on: July 12, 2018, 02:44:24 PM »
I have a 6D. I want to stay with Canon. 

All I really need is a 6D2 with a headphone jack.  Mirrorless / more compact would be nice, but I need a stinking headphone jack.  There are a lot of "nice to have" features which I would enjoy, including 4K and eye tracking.  But how Canon saw it fitting to make the 6D2 more video-friendly, but not include a headphone jack, which is even on the 80D is absurd.  There is no reasonable excuse.

I've been holding out a LONG time...just gimme a jack.  I don't see waiting any longer than the end of this year.  This is past the point of ridiculous, and has nothing to do with innovation. 

The A7III is sub $2k.  It has a headphone jack (MUST have IMO), plus a dozen or so other "nice to have" items.  More tempting by the day, even knowing the downsides.  I hate this upselling gamesmanship, it's detestable. 

scyrene

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #104 on: July 12, 2018, 02:52:46 PM »
If these announcements in September don't offer a compelling competitor product to Sony's Alpha range and any other cameras of a similar spec then I think its inevitable they will lose that momentum. 

With the greatest of respect to you, people have been coming on these forums for years saying 'if Canon' don't do something soon they'll start to lose sales', and it's never happened. Why is *now* the crucial time? Each manufacturer has had its basic strategy for years - some characterise it as, Sony innovative/desperate to get a product to sell well, Canon conservative/risk averse - and we haven't seen a seismic shift in sales. Nor has the 'coming mirrorless revolution', as some have imagined it, changed the scene at more than a glacial pace.

I think from the data we have, anouncing glitzy, amazing-sounding products and getting praise from reviewers absolutely isn't the way to be a market leader, in this sector at least.

The reason now is different is because practically every potential camera buyer is already carrying  an outstanding camera built into their mobile phone.

The camera sales market is shrinking : with increasingly complex camera functions being addressed by the phone capabilities.

I would expect fewer MILC sales to translate to fewer suppliers : survival of the fittest.

I don't fully understand your point, can you expand? Why is the shrinking of the overall camera market due to smartphones the reason Canon must absolutely release a world beating (however defined) FF mirrorless camera in the next few months?

They could release the best (once again, however you wish to define it) camera ever and phones would continue to eat away at the lower end of the market. A FF mirrorless camera isn't competing with phones, it's competing with other FF MILCs and FF DSLRs (and to a lesser extent, APS-C and mefium format).
 
But apologies if I'm misunderstanding you.
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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #104 on: July 12, 2018, 02:52:46 PM »