July 22, 2018, 02:43:00 PM

Author Topic: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]  (Read 14756 times)

scyrene

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #105 on: July 12, 2018, 02:56:46 PM »
I have a 6D. I want to stay with Canon. 

All I really need is a 6D2 with a headphone jack.  Mirrorless / more compact would be nice, but I need a stinking headphone jack.  There are a lot of "nice to have" features which I would enjoy, including 4K and eye tracking.  But how Canon saw it fitting to make the 6D2 more video-friendly, but not include a headphone jack, which is even on the 80D is absurd.  There is no reasonable excuse.

I've been holding out a LONG time...just gimme a jack.  I don't see waiting any longer than the end of this year.  This is past the point of ridiculous, and has nothing to do with innovation. 

The A7III is sub $2k.  It has a headphone jack (MUST have IMO), plus a dozen or so other "nice to have" items.  More tempting by the day, even knowing the downsides.  I hate this upselling gamesmanship, it's detestable.

This is what we call "off topic"  ::)
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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #105 on: July 12, 2018, 02:56:46 PM »

RGF

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #106 on: July 12, 2018, 02:57:09 PM »
If they just took the mirror box out of the 5Div body and added a good EVF, I think I would get one .... but probably not what is coming.

5D M4 is 3 or 4 year old technology.  That would be let down.  They need to do more than just convert the 5D M4 to an EVIL camera.  If they don't Nikon will have a superior camera again.

dak723

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #107 on: July 12, 2018, 03:17:36 PM »
If they just took the mirror box out of the 5Div body and added a good EVF, I think I would get one .... but probably not what is coming.

5D M4 is 3 or 4 year old technology.  That would be let down.  They need to do more than just convert the 5D M4 to an EVIL camera.  If they don't Nikon will have a superior camera again.

It would be a let down to a lot of folks on this forum who don't seem to get that camera tech has not changed mush - if at all in the factors that matter - since the 5D IV was released.  The 5D IV is - and will be for many years to come - a great camera.  What features exactly are you looking for that has been released since the 5D IV was released?

Don Haines

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #108 on: July 12, 2018, 03:17:50 PM »
I have a 6D. I want to stay with Canon. 

All I really need is a 6D2 with a headphone jack.  Mirrorless / more compact would be nice, but I need a stinking headphone jack.  There are a lot of "nice to have" features which I would enjoy, including 4K and eye tracking.  But how Canon saw it fitting to make the 6D2 more video-friendly, but not include a headphone jack, which is even on the 80D is absurd.  There is no reasonable excuse.

I've been holding out a LONG time...just gimme a jack.  I don't see waiting any longer than the end of this year.  This is past the point of ridiculous, and has nothing to do with innovation. 

The A7III is sub $2k.  It has a headphone jack (MUST have IMO), plus a dozen or so other "nice to have" items.  More tempting by the day, even knowing the downsides.  I hate this upselling gamesmanship, it's detestable.

A headphone jack would have been nice..... but what really bugs me about the 6D2 is that it has no headphone jack AND despite the fact that it has Bluetooth, you can not use a Bluetooth headset with it I have never been one of those people who say "stupid Canon", but in this case they deserve to be called so.


Bluetooth has been around long enough to be mainstream. Cars have it. phones have it. Computers, laptops, and tablets have it..... and all of these things talk to Bluetooth headsets..... heck, then even talk to Bluetooth hearing aids! So why can't I listen to a video playback from a Canon DSLR over Bluetooth?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 03:39:51 PM by Don Haines »
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rjbray01

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #109 on: July 12, 2018, 03:50:31 PM »
If these announcements in September don't offer a compelling competitor product to Sony's Alpha range and any other cameras of a similar spec then I think its inevitable they will lose that momentum. 

With the greatest of respect to you, people have been coming on these forums for years saying 'if Canon' don't do something soon they'll start to lose sales', and it's never happened. Why is *now* the crucial time? Each manufacturer has had its basic strategy for years - some characterise it as, Sony innovative/desperate to get a product to sell well, Canon conservative/risk averse - and we haven't seen a seismic shift in sales. Nor has the 'coming mirrorless revolution', as some have imagined it, changed the scene at more than a glacial pace.

I think from the data we have, anouncing glitzy, amazing-sounding products and getting praise from reviewers absolutely isn't the way to be a market leader, in this sector at least.

The reason now is different is because practically every potential camera buyer is already carrying  an outstanding camera built into their mobile phone.

The camera sales market is shrinking : with increasingly complex camera functions being addressed by the phone capabilities.

I would expect fewer MILC sales to translate to fewer suppliers : survival of the fittest.

I don't fully understand your point, can you expand? Why is the shrinking of the overall camera market due to smartphones the reason Canon must absolutely release a world beating (however defined) FF mirrorless camera in the next few months?

They could release the best (once again, however you wish to define it) camera ever and phones would continue to eat away at the lower end of the market. A FF mirrorless camera isn't competing with phones, it's competing with other FF MILCs and FF DSLRs (and to a lesser extent, APS-C and mefium format).
 
But apologies if I'm misunderstanding you.

There we will have to differ - it is my belief that new mobile phones do already present a challenge to the full frame market and the gap will close relentlessly.

Whilst the world is experiencing a massive growth in the middle classes, driven by increase in wealth in developing countries we are seeing an end to the growth in sales of FF cameras ... Which represents a huge reversal from what should be happening.

There is an enormous growth in travel for instance.

The FF market has ssentially decelerated and next comes shrinkage.

The larger the market the greater the number of suppliers due to economies of scale.

As a market shrinks, fewer suppliers can earn a profit from such economies of scale.

Those who survive will do so on merit, not from living on their laurels. 

Whereas a rising tide carries everyone, a falling tide leaves some marooned.

In an innovate-or-survive climate such as we are now entering I personally find it difficult to imagine that an ultra-conservative strategy of remaining behind the competition is a sure fire winner.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 03:59:44 PM by rjbray01 »

Don Haines

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #110 on: July 12, 2018, 04:01:02 PM »
If these announcements in September don't offer a compelling competitor product to Sony's Alpha range and any other cameras of a similar spec then I think its inevitable they will lose that momentum. 

With the greatest of respect to you, people have been coming on these forums for years saying 'if Canon' don't do something soon they'll start to lose sales', and it's never happened. Why is *now* the crucial time? Each manufacturer has had its basic strategy for years - some characterise it as, Sony innovative/desperate to get a product to sell well, Canon conservative/risk averse - and we haven't seen a seismic shift in sales. Nor has the 'coming mirrorless revolution', as some have imagined it, changed the scene at more than a glacial pace.

I think from the data we have, anouncing glitzy, amazing-sounding products and getting praise from reviewers absolutely isn't the way to be a market leader, in this sector at least.

The reason now is different is because practically every potential camera buyer is already carrying  an outstanding camera built into their mobile phone.

The camera sales market is shrinking : with increasingly complex camera functions being addressed by the phone capabilities.

I would expect fewer MILC sales to translate to fewer suppliers : survival of the fittest.

I don't fully understand your point, can you expand? Why is the shrinking of the overall camera market due to smartphones the reason Canon must absolutely release a world beating (however defined) FF mirrorless camera in the next few months?

They could release the best (once again, however you wish to define it) camera ever and phones would continue to eat away at the lower end of the market. A FF mirrorless camera isn't competing with phones, it's competing with other FF MILCs and FF DSLRs (and to a lesser extent, APS-C and mefium format).
 
But apologies if I'm misunderstanding you.

There we will have to differ - it is my belief that new mobile phones do already present a challenge to the full frame market and the gap will close relentlessly.

The larger the market the greater the number of suppliers due to economies of scale.

As a market shrinks, fewer suppliers can earn a profit from such economies of scale.

Those who survive will do so on merit, not from living on their laurels. 

Whereas a rising tide carries everyone, a falling tide leaves some marooned.

In an innovate-or-survive climate such as we are now entering I personally find it difficult to imagine that an ultra-conservative strategy of remaining behind the competition is a sure fire winner.


But what if the customer is looking for a reasonably priced camera that is easy to use? The vast bulk of people out there are buying Rebels and M cameras and most of them are left in the automatic mode. All these things that we forum users fixate about mean nothing to the average user. These people don't care about what mount Canon is going to use for a FF mirrorless, which codec video is shot with, or how to properly set up the cases in the AF system...
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Tugela

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #111 on: July 12, 2018, 04:06:16 PM »
We’re told that photo gear related announcements from Canon will be coming the first week of September, it is expected that Canon will announce at least one mirrorless camera.

But it might be a crop mirrorless camera (in September).  No FF listed above.  This one above could be the M5 II and/or M6 II.
I doubt an M6 II will come out before an M5.  M6 is basically an M5 without the EVF and a few other features downgraded.
the M5 is certainly ready for a update being two years old this september.  that's a long refresh cycle in the EF-M world.

The full frame mirrorless camera from Canon is being described as an “EOS 5D Mark IV in  a mirrorless body” internally by at least one retail insider. We think we’re going to get more than  a mirrorless version of a two year old camera.

Color me skeptical on a 5D "mark 4.5" sort of feature set.
- A

when you think about it. Canon's mirrorless already shoot at 7.5fps with full AF and 9fps with AE/AF locked with a 24MP sensor and that's with the M50 small camera.

regardless of the sensor format that won't impact speed that dramatically, there should be no reason why a 5D like mirrorless can't meet or exceed the performance envelope of a 5D non mirrorless.  the main tech surrounding the speed has alot to do with the shutter mechanism that simply doesn't exist on a 5D mirrorless.

DIGIC 8 obviously brings h.264 to 4K for Canon and that alone is a huge jump in what they will be able to do in the camera


Digic 7 is the stills version of the DV5, Digic 8 is the stills version of DV6, so actually Digic 8 is a step down in video capability.


Digic 7 could do H.264 encoding of 4K, but it would overheat if it tried. Digic 8 has a more basic encoder to keep the thermal envelope in check, thereby allowing 4K in consumer cameras.


My guess is that the flagship FF MILC would probably be doing mjpeg 4K since that is better quality than the H.264 4K coming out of the Digic 8. It will not be competitive with the likes of Sony and Panasonic if they go with H.264.

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #111 on: July 12, 2018, 04:06:16 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #112 on: July 12, 2018, 04:47:26 PM »
5D M4 is 3 or 4 year old technology.  That would be let down. 

The 5D4 has been on the market for less than two years.  It is not even halfway through its lifecycle.

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rjbray01

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #113 on: July 12, 2018, 05:21:21 PM »
If these announcements in September don't offer a compelling competitor product to Sony's Alpha range and any other cameras of a similar spec then I think its inevitable they will lose that momentum. 

With the greatest of respect to you, people have been coming on these forums for years saying 'if Canon' don't do something soon they'll start to lose sales', and it's never happened. Why is *now* the crucial time? Each manufacturer has had its basic strategy for years - some characterise it as, Sony innovative/desperate to get a product to sell well, Canon conservative/risk averse - and we haven't seen a seismic shift in sales. Nor has the 'coming mirrorless revolution', as some have imagined it, changed the scene at more than a glacial pace.

I think from the data we have, anouncing glitzy, amazing-sounding products and getting praise from reviewers absolutely isn't the way to be a market leader, in this sector at least.

The reason now is different is because practically every potential camera buyer is already carrying  an outstanding camera built into their mobile phone.

The camera sales market is shrinking : with increasingly complex camera functions being addressed by the phone capabilities.

I would expect fewer MILC sales to translate to fewer suppliers : survival of the fittest.

I don't fully understand your point, can you expand? Why is the shrinking of the overall camera market due to smartphones the reason Canon must absolutely release a world beating (however defined) FF mirrorless camera in the next few months?

They could release the best (once again, however you wish to define it) camera ever and phones would continue to eat away at the lower end of the market. A FF mirrorless camera isn't competing with phones, it's competing with other FF MILCs and FF DSLRs (and to a lesser extent, APS-C and mefium format).
 
But apologies if I'm misunderstanding you.

There we will have to differ - it is my belief that new mobile phones do already present a challenge to the full frame market and the gap will close relentlessly.

The larger the market the greater the number of suppliers due to economies of scale.

As a market shrinks, fewer suppliers can earn a profit from such economies of scale.

Those who survive will do so on merit, not from living on their laurels. 

Whereas a rising tide carries everyone, a falling tide leaves some marooned.

In an innovate-or-survive climate such as we are now entering I personally find it difficult to imagine that an ultra-conservative strategy of remaining behind the competition is a sure fire winner.


But what if the customer is looking for a reasonably priced camera that is easy to use? The vast bulk of people out there are buying Rebels and M cameras and most of them are left in the automatic mode. All these things that we forum users fixate about mean nothing to the average user. These people don't care about what mount Canon is going to use for a FF mirrorless, which codec video is shot with, or how to properly set up the cases in the AF system...

Absolutely I couldn't agree more

Whereas as few years ago someone who wanted a reasonably priced camera which is easy to use would have bought Canon / Nikon today they will buy IOS / Android ...

They certainly won't be snobby about the quality of the software-generated bokeh background blur or night-time bokeh balls for their portrait pics or limited ability to pixel peep ... All of which will get better and better as 5G comms and online AWS/Azure cloud processing becomes available for even greater software effects

fullstop

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #114 on: July 12, 2018, 06:11:51 PM »
But what if the customer is looking for a reasonably priced camera that is easy to use? The vast bulk of people out there are buying Rebels and M cameras and most of them are left in the automatic mode. All these things that we forum users fixate about mean nothing to the average user. These people don't care about what mount Canon is going to use for a FF mirrorless, which codec video is shot with, or how to properly set up the cases in the AF system...

lens mount matters, because they WILL will care how big, heavy, clunky and conspicuous their gear is.

And in 2018 camera users should not have to care about fiddling around with "AF use cases" deep down in some custom settings menu. Those custom settings are just testimony that Canon is not able to build cameras that are AI-smart enough to figure out motion & tracking on their own by analyzing the scene in real-time. 

Buyers like me want many small, pinpoint AF points all over frame [mirrorless!] and precisely select starting point for AF tracking [if subject in motion is detected there]. Up to now, no Canon camera is delivering what "AI-AF mode" in all of them promises. And we want Face-detect and Eye-detect AF. So far, only in one "entry level" Canon mirrorless cam [M50] ... in mid 2018. That's beyond "conservative". It is just plain stupid.   
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 06:18:51 PM by fullstop »

Don Haines

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #115 on: July 12, 2018, 06:43:40 PM »

lens mount matters, because they WILL will care how big, heavy, clunky and conspicuous their gear is.


Yes, lens mount matters. Most will buy a M sized camera. There is no way that a FF system will compete against a crop system for size, price, or convenience.....

The FF market is for those who rate quality above all else. Any compromise in image quality or the ergonomics (space for controls) will not be tolerated by the bulk of that market.
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fullstop

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #116 on: July 12, 2018, 06:49:17 PM »
Not only. I don't care about "ultimate technical IQ", but still have a FF system and want to consolidate all my gear to only one FF system that is not a lot larger than crop sensor-systems. Sensor size does not scale very well with gear size. Look at Pana GH5 - big camera, small sensor. Or Oly M1 - same. Or Fuji XT-2. I want exactly the opposite. Compact camera, compact lenses, FF sensor. Because that allows me to do anything  I could do with a crop system - and then some. :-)

Don Haines

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #117 on: July 12, 2018, 06:51:52 PM »

And in 2018 camera users should not have to care about fiddling around with "AF use cases" deep down in some custom settings menu. Those custom settings are just testimony that Canon is not able to build cameras that are AI-smart enough to figure out motion & tracking on their own by analyzing the scene in real-time. 

Buyers like me want many small, pinpoint AF points all over frame [mirrorless!] and precisely select starting point for AF tracking [if subject in motion is detected there]. Up to now, no Canon camera is delivering what "AI-AF mode" in all of them promises. And we want Face-detect and Eye-detect AF. So far, only in one "entry level" Canon mirrorless cam [M50] ... in mid 2018. That's beyond "conservative". It is just plain stupid.

What you have touched on here is one of the best reasons to go mirrorless. With the mirror down, a DSLR can do none of this. I would hope that as newer mirrorless cameras roll out, that they will all have this feature. That said, although there are phones and P/S cameras out there with this feature, I have yet to see anyone use it.... most cameras spend their life at “factory default”. Now as for us forum fanatics, I can easily see it as a well used feature....
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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #117 on: July 12, 2018, 06:51:52 PM »

Don Haines

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #118 on: July 12, 2018, 06:54:41 PM »
Not only. I don't care about "ultimate technical IQ", but still have a FF system and want to consolidate all my gear to only one FF system that is not a lot larger than crop sensor-systems. Sensor size does not scale very well with gear size. Look at Pana GH5 - big camera, small sensor. Or Oly M1 - same. Or Fuji XT-2. I want exactly the opposite. Compact camera, compact lenses, FF sensor. Because that allows me to do anything  I could do with a crop system - and then some. :-)

I’m hoping that they use a 6D sized body...... particularly with the pancakes, it is a compact tool..... it makes my 7D2 feel like a brick in comparison.... and if one really wants he ultimate in glass, put away the F2.8 lens and mount a F1.4....
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #119 on: July 12, 2018, 07:35:35 PM »
...we are seeing an end to the growth in sales of FF cameras ...

The FF market has ssentially decelerated and next comes shrinkage.

Manufacturers don't publish model-specific data.  CIPA doesn't report ILC shipments broken down by sensor size.  May I ask...on what data are you basing your statements above?
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Re: Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]
« Reply #119 on: July 12, 2018, 07:35:35 PM »