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Author Topic: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]  (Read 247920 times)

mike f2

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #660 on: February 27, 2012, 05:31:52 PM »
Hi ALL,

This is my First Post and I do Hope this gets to Canon or someone in the Know.. and I dont mean any offence to anyone..

BUT... most of you are extolling the OHHH got to have it and these features are worth it.. THERE IS A FULL ON RECESSION On out there..

I am looking for my first and probably last DSLR.. and Ive chosen Canon..CORRECTION I did choose Canon..

My decision was based on I work In Media live Broadcasting and have gone from vision engineer to trainee Video cameraman in 2 Years.. and Ive decided to learn the job properly and to do that I feel I need to start with STILLS  and perfect that alongside Video work..Sorry if am boring you all but am old fashioned and if I do something I do it right..

 Therefore I was looking at the 7D and at a stretch a 5D mk II.. reasons were get something good and develop with it..not swap and change.. then the 5D Mk III has appeared on the horizon..

BUT
The high price thats been banded is Not justifyable.. take a step back and look.. Canon release a slightly improved camera at greatly inflated prices, sell a shed load to the must have new brigade or the canon pros get em at greatly discounted prices for the product to be seen out on the street then when its sales figures start to drop the price falls..ready for the next model.. and to be honest most on here are actually helping Canon Improve there sales by justifying the price.. Listen to YOURSELVES !!

START realising and take a stance.. SAY NO (IEI)  TO Canon s Pricing structure and Demand a reasonable price to new product Pricing for Loyalty..to the Canon brand.. its you who can do this..

I have managed to get £1500-£2000 together towards  a decent Camera  BUT I WILL NOT give that money away ..SO am now going to Look at some NIKON (spit) hardware as well

SO CANON THIS MIGHT BE ONE SALE YOU HAVE LOST..

M (DISAPPOINTED..)


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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #660 on: February 27, 2012, 05:31:52 PM »

briansquibb

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #661 on: February 27, 2012, 05:56:03 PM »
Hi ALL,

This is my First Post and I do Hope this gets to Canon or someone in the Know.. and I dont mean any offence to anyone..

BUT... most of you are extolling the OHHH got to have it and these features are worth it.. THERE IS A FULL ON RECESSION On out there..

I am looking for my first and probably last DSLR.. and Ive chosen Canon..CORRECTION I did choose Canon..

My decision was based on I work In Media live Broadcasting and have gone from vision engineer to trainee Video cameraman in 2 Years.. and Ive decided to learn the job properly and to do that I feel I need to start with STILLS  and perfect that alongside Video work..Sorry if am boring you all but am old fashioned and if I do something I do it right..

 Therefore I was looking at the 7D and at a stretch a 5D mk II.. reasons were get something good and develop with it..not swap and change.. then the 5D Mk III has appeared on the horizon..

BUT
The high price thats been banded is Not justifyable.. take a step back and look.. Canon release a slightly improved camera at greatly inflated prices, sell a shed load to the must have new brigade or the canon pros get em at greatly discounted prices for the product to be seen out on the street then when its sales figures start to drop the price falls..ready for the next model.. and to be honest most on here are actually helping Canon Improve there sales by justifying the price.. Listen to YOURSELVES !!

START realising and take a stance.. SAY NO (IEI)  TO Canon s Pricing structure and Demand a reasonable price to new product Pricing for Loyalty..to the Canon brand.. its you who can do this..

I have managed to get £1500-£2000 together towards  a decent Camera  BUT I WILL NOT give that money away ..SO am now going to Look at some NIKON (spit) hardware as well

SO CANON THIS MIGHT BE ONE SALE YOU HAVE LOST..

M (DISAPPOINTED..)

Well £1500 buys a 5D2. 5D3 doesn't have a price yet - nor do we have any specs - so which Nikon will you compare it with??

It is no good comparing msrp to the street price unless you want to be an early buyer. Used 7Ds are now at less than £900 - why not buy one of those in the interim until street prices and specifications/performance is known?

mike f2

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #662 on: February 27, 2012, 06:15:41 PM »
Hi Brian,

Yeah I know I could but .. some of the money is a bit of a living legacy from my dad and the camera will not be changed  later on for anything.. (tho hopefully raising more cash..as we speak..)

I've been researching Canon Cameras since before Xmas as they came highly recommended by friends who work commercially with Canon equipment and I (we) use canon lenses on the broadcast video cams.

So just feeling a bit raw with all this speculation regarding the price.. and I think I will look at comparible cameras that offer similar IQ around a particular pricepoint.

briansquibb

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #663 on: February 27, 2012, 06:25:19 PM »
Hi Brian,

Yeah I know I could but .. some of the money is a bit of a living legacy from my dad and the camera will not be changed  later on for anything.. (tho hopefully raising more cash..as we speak..)

I've been researching Canon Cameras since before Xmas as they came highly recommended by friends who work commercially with Canon equipment and I (we) use canon lenses on the broadcast video cams.

So just feeling a bit raw with all this speculation regarding the price.. and I think I will look at comparible cameras that offer similar IQ around a particular pricepoint.

The price on the street will not be the same as the msrp

We wont be able to compare IQ until the specs have been announced and review done. There is nothing to say that the Nikon will come out best (far from it as already stories of high noise are circulating).

How will you compare a 5DIII with a D800 - they are totally different cameras

d800 - high mps, low fps, high iso? high noise?

5DIII - (guesing) - lower mps, higher fps, high iso, low noise

If you cant buy tactically - then I would recommend waiting for 3(?) months till the market settles down and you can make a balanced decision

Brad Trent

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #664 on: February 27, 2012, 06:25:54 PM »
Quote
...because if 36 MP is better than 22 MP, then 41 MP must be even better!  Plus, no more fussing about with all those heavy, expensive lenses, and you still get to use Zeiss glass...  :P

Well...let's not let common sense get in the way of a good argument! I'm sure the new Nokia phone will get lotsa kids excited, but why don't we stay on point?!!

The simple fact is that 36MP is better than 22MP and there is no logical reason to believe otherwise. I've watched Canon let its long-held lead in the professional digital race get whittled down by both Nikon and Sony over the past few years and really don't care to stick around while other camera makers come out with better products.

If more megapixels were not producing better results, then why the continuing escalation in digital back technology? I own a Leaf Aptus 75S...it's bloody marvelous with its 33 megapixels...but only a fool would say that the 80 megapixel Aptus II 12 doesn't give much better results. Do I need to upgrade (to the tune of $35 Grand) to the 80MP back right now...no...but I know eventually I probably will because there will be enough of my clients that will come to expect it. But when it comes to me jumping to a Nikon system if it means the images the D800 produces are better in quality that what I now get outta my 5D, I'd do that without much prodding. I could sell all of my Canon gear and move into a Nikon system with the same glass for an investment of maybe a few grand. Do I want to change systems? Not particularly, but Canon isn't exactly making it easy to stick around. As for the theory that we'll see BIG THINGS at Photokina...I can't plan my business on maybes! If Canon came out tomorrow and said that yes, they have a high-megapixel body in the pipeline that will compete with the D800, I'm pretty sure it would go a long way to make other guys like me wait around a bit longer, but as I said before, getting them to confirm anything is impossible. Maybe the Canon fanboys can put up with that kinda logic, but I really don't have the time or interest any more...

briansquibb

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #665 on: February 27, 2012, 06:35:10 PM »
Quote
...because if 36 MP is better than 22 MP, then 41 MP must be even better!  Plus, no more fussing about with all those heavy, expensive lenses, and you still get to use Zeiss glass...  :P

Well...let's not let common sense get in the way of a good argument! I'm sure the new Nokia phone will get lotsa kids excited, but why don't we stay on point?!!

The simple fact is that 36MP is better than 22MP and there is no logical reason to believe otherwise. I've watched Canon let its long-held lead in the professional digital race get whittled down by both Nikon and Sony over the past few years and really don't care to stick around while other camera makers come out with better products.

If more megapixels were not producing better results, then why the continuing escalation in digital back technology? I own a Leaf Aptus 75S...it's bloody marvelous with its 33 megapixels...but only a fool would say that the 80 megapixel Aptus II 12 doesn't give much better results. Do I need to upgrade (to the tune of $35 Grand) to the 80MP back right now...no...but I know eventually I probably will because there will be enough of my clients that will come to expect it. But when it comes to me jumping to a Nikon system if it means the images the D800 produces are better in quality that what I now get outta my 5D, I'd do that without much prodding. I could sell all of my Canon gear and move into a Nikon system with the same glass for an investment of maybe a few grand. Do I want to change systems? Not particularly, but Canon isn't exactly making it easy to stick around. As for the theory that we'll see BIG THINGS at Photokina...I can't plan my business on maybes! If Canon came out tomorrow and said that yes, they have a high-megapixel body in the pipeline that will compete with the D800, I'm pretty sure it would go a long way to make other guys like me wait around a bit longer, but as I said before, getting them to confirm anything is impossible. Maybe the Canon fanboys can put up with that kinda logic, but I really don't have the time or interest any more...

Mps requirement is dependant on the output produced.

I suspect that 36mp wont give  a better image than 21mp for wedding photograpers with a max print of 20 x 16

unfocused

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #666 on: February 27, 2012, 06:41:45 PM »
Quote
The high price thats been banded is Not justifyable.. take a step back and look.. Canon release a slightly improved camera at greatly inflated prices, sell a shed load to the must have new brigade or the canon pros get em at greatly discounted prices for the product to be seen out on the street then when its sales figures start to drop the price falls..ready for the next model.. and to be honest most on here are actually helping Canon Improve there sales by justifying the price.. Listen to YOURSELVES !!

START realising and take a stance.. SAY NO (IEI)  TO Canon s Pricing structure and Demand a reasonable price to new product Pricing for Loyalty..to the Canon brand.. its you who can do this..

I have managed to get £1500-£2000 together towards  a decent Camera  BUT I WILL NOT give that money away ..SO am now going to Look at some NIKON (spit) hardware as well

I'm not a "Canon or nothing" person, but I must say, I don't think your reasoning is very sound.

I am not that familiar with the exchange rates, but I don't believe you can get a new D800 from Nikon for the price you are seeking, nor will you likely be able to get a new 5D III for that price. As far as the next levels down, both Canon and Nikon have a full line of APS-C sensor cameras including their top-of-the-line models within that price range (I believe). And, both are competitively priced to one another (I think the 7D gives you quite a bit more camera for less cost actually). Likewise, it sounds as though both companies intend to offer their previous models (the 5D II and the D700) at significantly reduced but similar prices.

If you are upset that your budgeted amount won't buy you the latest full-frame models from either manufacturer...well...we all have budget limitations. They are both likely to be out of my price range as well. But, then again, so are BMWs and so are Rolex watches. Kind of, just the way life is, isn't it?

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #666 on: February 27, 2012, 06:41:45 PM »

wickidwombat

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #667 on: February 27, 2012, 06:48:36 PM »
Quote
The high price thats been banded is Not justifyable.. take a step back and look.. Canon release a slightly improved camera at greatly inflated prices, sell a shed load to the must have new brigade or the canon pros get em at greatly discounted prices for the product to be seen out on the street then when its sales figures start to drop the price falls..ready for the next model.. and to be honest most on here are actually helping Canon Improve there sales by justifying the price.. Listen to YOURSELVES !!

START realising and take a stance.. SAY NO (IEI)  TO Canon s Pricing structure and Demand a reasonable price to new product Pricing for Loyalty..to the Canon brand.. its you who can do this..

I have managed to get £1500-£2000 together towards  a decent Camera  BUT I WILL NOT give that money away ..SO am now going to Look at some NIKON (spit) hardware as well

I'm not a "Canon or nothing" person, but I must say, I don't think your reasoning is very sound.

I am not that familiar with the exchange rates, but I don't believe you can get a new D800 from Nikon for the price you are seeking, nor will you likely be able to get a new 5D III for that price. As far as the next levels down, both Canon and Nikon have a full line of APS-C sensor cameras including their top-of-the-line models within that price range (I believe). And, both are competitively priced to one another (I think the 7D gives you quite a bit more camera for less cost actually). Likewise, it sounds as though both companies intend to offer their previous models (the 5D II and the D700) at significantly reduced but similar prices.

If you are upset that your budgeted amount won't buy you the latest full-frame models from either manufacturer...well...we all have budget limitations. They are both likely to be out of my price range as well. But, then again, so are BMWs and so are Rolex watches. Kind of, just the way life is, isn't it?

I know I know, I've been really getting annoyed that aston martin wont sell me a DB9 for $30,000 I mean don't they want my money?

Seriously the price is going to be what it is going to be, It is an item in massive demand and more than likely there will be a significant waiting list of preorders just to get one within months of release. That is the way it is.
End of story.

APS-H Fanboy

eosbit

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #668 on: February 27, 2012, 06:52:25 PM »
Therefore I was looking at the 7D and at a stretch a 5D mk II.. reasons were get something good and develop with it..not swap and change.. then the 5D Mk III has appeared on the horizon..

Eh?  The (seemingly) imminent announcement of a 5DIII does NOT make the 5DII any less of a camera.  It was and still is an AWESOME camera.    There will be thousands of people taking fantastic images with the 5DII for many many years to come.

neuroanatomist

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #669 on: February 27, 2012, 06:54:06 PM »
Quote
...because if 36 MP is better than 22 MP, then 41 MP must be even better!  Plus, no more fussing about with all those heavy, expensive lenses, and you still get to use Zeiss glass...  :P

Well...let's not let common sense get in the way of a good argument! I'm sure the new Nokia phone will get lotsa kids excited, but why don't we stay on point?!!

The simple fact is that 36MP is better than 22MP and there is no logical reason to believe otherwise. I've watched Canon let its long-held lead in the professional digital race get whittled down by both Nikon and Sony over the past few years and really don't care to stick around while other camera makers come out with better products.

Well, I could argue that the folks at Nikon have sung a very different tune for the past several years, until their recent paradigm shift. But...I won't argue that because I think you're right and they're not.

@Brian - I suspect a high ISO shot, with similar sensor tech, but one downsampled from 36 MP vs. 22 MP for the same 16x20" print, the downsampled one would show less noise. 

Barring the limits of diffraction, I'd rather have more MP and not need them than need them and not have them.  Storage is cheap, my computers are fast, there's no real downside.

But I will remind that Canon explicitly stated that if the market 'demanded' it, they could rapidly develop a high MP FF dSLR. Given that sensors take years to develop, that statement implies they have such a sensor ready, and even prototype cameras built around it (although the statement could easily be a bald-faced PR lie).  So, it's likely that if the D800 is very popular, Canon can and will respond, fairly soon, even if it's only an 'in-development' announcement like the 200-400mm lens.

Plus, despite the 36 MP vs. 22 MP debate, it wouldn't surprise me at all, given the current state of market share, for the 5DIII to outsell the D800 once they're going head-to-head.
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briansquibb

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #670 on: February 27, 2012, 07:01:06 PM »

@Brian - I suspect a high ISO shot, with similar sensor tech, but one downsampled from 36 MP vs. 22 MP for the same 16x20" print, the downsampled one would show less noise. 


I was thinking along the lines where a 22mp sensor was optimised for low noise as compared to a sensor that was designed for high mp.

Recent example that this shows up was the noink D3

« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 07:05:18 PM by briansquibb »

Brad Trent

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #671 on: February 27, 2012, 07:19:27 PM »

But I will remind that Canon explicitly stated that if the market 'demanded' it, they could rapidly develop a high MP FF dSLR. Given that sensors take years to develop, that statement implies they have such a sensor ready, and even prototype cameras built around it (although the statement could easily be a bald-faced PR lie).  So, it's likely that if the D800 is very popular, Canon can and will respond, fairly soon, even if it's only an 'in-development' announcement like the 200-400mm lens.

Plus, despite the 36 MP vs. 22 MP debate, it wouldn't surprise me at all, given the current state of market share, for the 5DIII to outsell the D800 once they're going head-to-head.

A couple of things...

Unless Canon actually does have a 30+MP model ready for Photokina, at best it would still take them a year to get any new product to the market. If my own anecdotal evidence can be used as a benchmark, that might be too late for a lotta pros who are ready to jump to Nikon. I have spoken to countless numbers of friends...all dedicated 5D mkII users...who are extremely interested in the D800. And for all the same reasons I am...because the higher megapixel count will be greatly appreciated by advertising clients. Of course a wedding guy doesn't need a 36mp chip to do his job, but I do.

As for a new 5DIII outselling the D800, that's kind of a no-brainer, but only because Canon already has a much greater market share and of those users, there are a lot of reasons why they wouldn't be inclined to change to Nikon. A lot probably don't make a living at photography, some are perfectly happy with the current megapixel count and then there are the guys who have tens of thousands invested in glass. In my case, all I would have to replace is a 50 f1.2, 85 f1.2, 16-35mm and 70-200mm zooms...compared to a lotta guys, that's nothing!

KitH

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #672 on: February 27, 2012, 07:21:57 PM »
Mike f2   

Hang on to your money until after NAB (April) in Las Vegas.   We should be seeing decent comparisons between the new products by then and there'll be demo content to see from everyone.   

Is your username an aperture or a very old Nikon?   Because you're training up in video, you really ought to consider being a "T" value instead of an "f".     

Anyway, welcome. it's a nutty as a bag of squirrels around here at the moment. 

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #672 on: February 27, 2012, 07:21:57 PM »

Orion

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #673 on: February 27, 2012, 07:38:32 PM »
. . .  and I dont mean any offence to anyone..

. . . you say that as if we all married Canon. Say what you want about the company and its products, as long as it is not a waste of time. You have to comnsider everything, including the tech you want to invest in, and WHY! A few hundred $$$ for a person in a techy/artsy business should be the last thing on their mind. Especailly since the new product they seek and complain about isn't even out yet, nor a price mentioned, officially!

It all boggles the mind, comming from a person in media satudies and production, etc. . . . WOW!


BUT... most of you are extolling the OHHH got to have it and these features are worth it.. THERE IS A FULL ON RECESSION On out there..

. . . then buy a previous model, like the 7D or 5DmkII . . . since you choose to use the recession as the main factor.

I am looking for my first and probably last DSLR.. and Ive chosen Canon..CORRECTION I did choose Canon..

wonderful! maybe if you go to Nikon, you won't have so much pressures with price, etc, or maybe try another manufacturer, that can give you quality and price, etc. . . much to choose from and Nikon and Canon are just tops, but not the be all and end all of cameras for people complaining about price and product. search and see what is best for you, after you consider everything.

My decision was based on I work In Media live Broadcasting and have gone from vision engineer to trainee Video cameraman in 2 Years.. and Ive decided to learn the job properly and to do that I feel I need to start with STILLS  and perfect that alongside Video work..Sorry if am boring you all but am old fashioned and if I do something I do it right..

. . . this is really beyond the scope but, you do not need stills knowlewdge to learn video and vice versa. They both have aspects that are shared, but those are learnt as you progress in either field.

The high price thats been banded is Not justifyable.. take a step back and look.. Canon release a slightly improved camera at greatly inflated prices, sell a shed load to the must have new brigade or the canon pros get em at greatly discounted prices for the product to be seen out on the street then when its sales figures start to drop the price falls..ready for the next model.. and to be honest most on here are actually helping Canon Improve there sales by justifying the price.. Listen to YOURSELVES !!

Nikon is at 3300, and the Canon is slated to be @ 3500. . . what if Canon is using better AF and more chips than the D800, and new sensor design. WHy would anyone compare 3300 to 3500!? Who cares!? And to switch to another manufacturer, based on pricing policy when there is such little difference . . . . . . I honestly don't understand why so much beef. . . . if you want a pro system, then don;t argue and change plans based around a few hundred $$$. At the very least wait for a final release date and see for yourself before talking about price and switching. Something just doesn't seem logical, coming from a "vision engineer to trainee Video cameraman. . . ."

START realising and take a stance.. SAY NO (IEI)  TO Canon s Pricing structure and Demand a reasonable price to new product Pricing for Loyalty..to the Canon brand.. its you who can do this..

There is no loyalty! Canon, as well as Nikon, has to make sure they do not fall too far back in tech, and actually keep pace or succeed in order to maintain some sort of market share. Our "loyalty" should only go as far as where you want to spend your money: on this company's priduct or another company's product, all things considered. Loyalty, otherwise, is for weak minded individuals that fail to realise certain aspecxts of thier careers, and how tech and a company's products hinder or maintain that career, etc etc etc etc.. .  . .

Let's start complaining about the price of coffee, as that of 100yrs ago, or the price of bread and coffee in Europe after the intor of the EURO, for god's sake! Or the price of Nike shoes!? . . . or the prioce of the new LED 3D TVs, and then come back in 2 years and find how cheap they are, compared. . . . it's all meaningless, just about.

I have managed to get £1500-£2000 together towards  a decent Camera  BUT I WILL NOT give that money away ..SO am now going to Look at some NIKON (spit) hardware as well

Oh! So, I guess Nikon will comfort that need of yours, concerning price and products, as opposed to Canon! It's the same thing, oh weary consumer!

SO CANON THIS MIGHT BE ONE SALE YOU HAVE LOST..

M (DISAPPOINTED..)

. . .they are betting on your use of "MIGHT." We still have hope for you haha ;)

jrista

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #674 on: February 27, 2012, 10:50:22 PM »
I am not sure if you are just being sarcastic, but you realize that at 62mp, not more than 2-3 lenses in Canon's entire lineup could resolve enough detail at any aperture to actually use all those pixels, right?

I'm really sick of people saying this sort of thing, since it's totally false.

Here's what the full-frame version of 184MP looks like on the old 100-400L (18MP 1.6-crop + 2x TC = 72MP on 1.6 crop = 184MP on full-frame)

http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/T2i__3574%20edited.jpg

Yeah, in the corners of many lenses you're going to start having trouble at higher pixel densities, but you're still going to get more detail than you would with less pixel density.  You can't add pixels and get a less detailed shot, and on the better lenses, you're going to get more and more detailed.

Here's 288MP on crop (18MP + 4x = 18*4*4 = 288) or 737MP (288*1.6*1.6) on full-frame through the 400/2.8L (the old one):

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=37493247

I don't really get your math there...an 18mp sensor is an 18mp sensor, it will never produce an image with more than 18 million pixels in it. The number of pixels in the image has nothing to do with "resolution" as I'm using it. I believe you are mixing the concept of magnification (reproduction factor) with spatial resolution. They are not the same. Just because you magnify the moon enough such that, if you took a collage of photos of the whole moon at a given reproduction factor that, when combined, produce a 288mp image, does NOT mean that you have a 288mp sensor or lens, nor does it mean you can resolve beyond a certain degree of detail fineness. I'm not referring to total image resolution, magnification, reproduction factor, etc...I am referring to spatial resolution.

Spatial resolution is limited by optical aberrations at maximum aperture, which usually overpower diffraction, and limited by diffraction at narrower apertures. There are few lenses in Canon's lineup that offer near-perfect image reproduction (i.e. near-perfect lens characteristics) at maximum aperture, and once you stop down beyond about f/5.6, diffraction reduces spatial resolution below that which can be captured by Canon's highest density sensors (which are the 18mp APS-C sensors, or what would be a 47mp FF sensor.) The 500/4, 600/4, 70-200/2.8 II, 300/2.8, and a couple others get pretty darn close at maximum aperture, and nearly 100% at f/8 (which is limited to a max of 86 lp/mm by diffraction), but still less than perfect. Assuming perfection in a lens at f/4, you could resolve as much as 173 lp/mm, and some of Canon's lenses do indeed get very close to that (at least theoretically, I don't know if any of Canon's MTF's are actually real, and independent lab tests that produce real MTF charts for Canon lenses usually tend to indicate far lower than "perfect" lens resolution.)

Here is a simple matter of PHYSICS:

Any and all lenses, no matter who designs it or how perfectly it may be designed, at f/5.6, MTF 50% (about the minimum for a camera to effectively resolve two nearly overlapping points of light as distinct...i.e. neighboring line pairs), is capable of an absolute maximum spatial resolution of 123 lp/mm, assuming total perfection. It would take roughly a 52mp FF sensor, or a 20mp APS-C sensor, to resolve exactly that much detail...WITH an AA filter. We know for a fact that the 100-400 is NOT a perfect, diffraction-limited lens at 400/5.6, by a fair percentage. As someone who shoots with this lens for roughly 12-16 hours every weekend, and several more hours during the week, I can state with confidence that this lens does not resolve more detail than my 7D can resolve itself...at best it can resolve just about enough in the center...116lp/mm. That would be a loss of reproduction accuracy from "perfect" of about 5-6% (beyond margin of error.)

Now, if you slap on TWO additional 2x TC's, that you reduce the maximum aperture to f/22!!! At f/22, MTF 50%, your absolute maximum resolution shrinks to a meager 31lp/mm!!! A mere 3.3mp FF camera, or 1.2mp APS-C camera, would be sufficient to capture maximum detail at f/22. Every lens is diffraction limited by f/22, so our 100-400mm with two 2x TC's can certainly resolve that maximum of 31lp/mm.

Lets assume a modern sensor is capable of resolving detail at Rayleigh, which is an MTF of 9%. The human eye can barely discern detail at this level, and it is a far superior imaging device with cones and rods packed to a density an order of magnitude higher than sensor pixels, not to mention its powered by a vastly superior image processor. But, lets just assume that a modern camera is capable of discerning detail enough at a contrast level of only 9%. At f/22,  you could resolve about 68 lp/mm. You could capture maximum detail at that aperture with a 16mp FF sensor, or a 6mp APS-C sensor.

Thats nothing to say of the increase in optical aberrations with two 2x TC's stacked on top of the already less than perfect 100-400mm lens.

There is no way your resolving enough spatial resolution to equal 288mp with the 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 lens with TWO 2x TC's tacked onto the end. You might be able to achieve a reproduction factor that would produce a 288mp image if you took a collage of photos at 1600mm. When it comes to the moon, average contrast is very, very low, far lower than say the barbs on the feathers of a bird or even individual hairs on a deer or elk, or a myriad of other common subjects photographed with the 100-400mm L, so your probably safe computing resolution based on an MTF @ 10-12% contrast, rather than 50%. You'll get closer to that physical maximum of 68 lp/mm rather than 31 lp/mm, but there is little chance your actually going to resolve enough spatial resolution to utilize everything an 18mp sensor has to offer, let alone a 288mp sensor.

Don't confuse spatial resolution, which is how the resolution of lenses is measured with MTF charts, with reproduction factor, or effective magnification that a lens is blowing a subject up by. Two very different concepts.

For reference: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/resolution.shtml

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #674 on: February 27, 2012, 10:50:22 PM »