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Author Topic: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]  (Read 248034 times)

jrista

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #675 on: February 27, 2012, 11:01:12 PM »

I am not sure if you are just being sarcastic, but you realize that at 62mp, not more than 2-3 lenses in Canon's entire lineup could resolve enough detail at any aperture to actually use all those pixels, right? You max out at 46mp, which is about 116lp/mm, which is right about where Canon's newest L-series lenses top out at their best aperture as well...which seems to be somewhere between f/4 and f/5.6 most of the time. The only few lenses from Canon that I think could resolve enough detail for 62mp are the new 500mm and 600mm L II lenses (which as of yet are still unreleased) and possibly the forthcoming 200-400 L...and even then, their maximum aperture is f/4, so 173lp/mm.

I don't believe that is the case. I thought some lenses were measured well above that. Plus the total resolution is a combination of sensor and lens that is not direct. Even the worst kit ever made delivers a more detailed image on a 7D than a 40D. A 70-200 + 1.4x TC still delivers more detail on a 7D. A 300 2.8 + TWO TCs still does on a 7D too.

Well sure, the 40D is a 10mp sensor, where as the 7D is an 18mp sensor. Were talking a 33% increase in resolution for the 7D. If we take the 18-55 at 55/5.6, assuming it was a perfect lens (and we know its far from it) it could resolve 123 lp/mm. Assuming the 18-55 kit, given how poor its IQ is (I've owned a couple of these, of differing generations, and all of them exhibit remarkably bad CA at max aperture at all focal lengths), only resolves 100lp/mm. The 40D is incapable of resolving even that much at 87lp/mm, so moving from the 40D to the 7D, which can resolve 116lp/mm, is obviously going to capture more detail. ;)

The 300/2.8 is one of the few Canon lenses that approaches perfection at f/2.8 (and you really pay for it, too, at nearly $7000). I would say the 70-200/2.8 II is another (although based on the MTF charts, the original 70-200/2.8 I is NOT...but it would be the same situation as the 18-55 when comparing the 40D to the 7D with that lens, stacked TC's or not.) These are the reasons I try to evaluate resolution on this forum as spatial resolution...in line pairs per millimeter (vs. megapixels or line widths per picture height), as its easy to explain why you might see such an improvement when moving from a 40D to a 7D, even with Canon's bottom-barrel lenses.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 11:03:28 PM by jrista »

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #675 on: February 27, 2012, 11:01:12 PM »

apeshot

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #676 on: February 27, 2012, 11:19:14 PM »


BUT... most of you are extolling the OHHH got to have it and these features are worth it.. THERE IS A FULL ON RECESSION On out there..



Say, as long as we're handing out free Physics lessons, can we also have an Econ reminder.  The recession has now been over for nearly twice as long as it ever even lasted.  The recession was 18 months long, but it ended nearly three years ago.  Trust me, I know we haven't returned to full-employment, but we've been in a slowly exapansionary period for nearly three years now. 

Buy the 5dII or the 7d depending on how you want to use it, you'll love it.  Or, buy the Nikon 800.  It seems a little odd and ironic that you would write such a passionate Dear Sir letter telling people they are being too passionate about Canon.  The market will set the price.  I love the fact that Nikon has stepped their game up, we all win.

jrista

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #677 on: February 27, 2012, 11:21:07 PM »
The market will set the price.

'nuff said! :D

jrista

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #678 on: February 27, 2012, 11:37:56 PM »
I'm really sick of people saying this sort of thing, since it's totally false.

Here's what the full-frame version of 184MP looks like on the old 100-400L (18MP 1.6-crop + 2x TC = 72MP on 1.6 crop = 184MP on full-frame)

http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/T2i__3574%20edited.jpg

BTW, the image linked above there is a remarkable demonstration of the detail-eating power of diffraction at f/22. :) There is VERY visible diffraction softening of that moon photo that wouldn't be present if you used only 1 2x TC, and you could probably upscale the f/11 shot to the same resolution as this one and still have more detail, or at least as much, as the f/22 version.


Ricku

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #679 on: February 27, 2012, 11:45:23 PM »
most of you are extolling the OHHH got to have it and these features are worth it.. THERE IS A FULL ON RECESSION On out there..

I am looking for my first and probably last DSLR.. and Ive chosen Canon..CORRECTION I did choose Canon..

My decision was based on I work In Media live Broadcasting and have gone from vision engineer to trainee Video cameraman in 2 Years.. and Ive decided to learn the job properly and to do that I feel I need to start with STILLS  and perfect that alongside Video work..Sorry if am boring you all but am old fashioned and if I do something I do it right..

 Therefore I was looking at the 7D and at a stretch a 5D mk II.. reasons were get something good and develop with it..not swap and change.. then the 5D Mk III has appeared on the horizon..

BUT
The high price thats been banded is Not justifyable.. take a step back and look.. Canon release a slightly improved camera at greatly inflated prices, sell a shed load to the must have new brigade or the canon pros get em at greatly discounted prices for the product to be seen out on the street then when its sales figures start to drop the price falls..ready for the next model.. and to be honest most on here are actually helping Canon Improve there sales by justifying the price.. Listen to YOURSELVES !!

START realising and take a stance.. SAY NO (IEI)  TO Canon s Pricing structure and Demand a reasonable price to new product Pricing for Loyalty..to the Canon brand.. its you who can do this..

I have managed to get £1500-£2000 together towards  a decent Camera  BUT I WILL NOT give that money away ..SO am now going to Look at some NIKON (spit) hardware as well

SO CANON THIS MIGHT BE ONE SALE YOU HAVE LOST..

M (DISAPPOINTED..)

Smited!

pravkp

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #680 on: February 28, 2012, 12:29:44 AM »
Hi ALL,

This is my First Post and I do Hope this gets to Canon or someone in the Know.. and I dont mean any offence to anyone..

BUT... most of you are extolling the OHHH got to have it and these features are worth it.. THERE IS A FULL ON RECESSION On out there..

I am looking for my first and probably last DSLR.. and Ive chosen Canon..CORRECTION I did choose Canon..

My decision was based on I work In Media live Broadcasting and have gone from vision engineer to trainee Video cameraman in 2 Years.. and Ive decided to learn the job properly and to do that I feel I need to start with STILLS  and perfect that alongside Video work..Sorry if am boring you all but am old fashioned and if I do something I do it right..

 Therefore I was looking at the 7D and at a stretch a 5D mk II.. reasons were get something good and develop with it..not swap and change.. then the 5D Mk III has appeared on the horizon..

BUT
The high price thats been banded is Not justifyable.. take a step back and look.. Canon release a slightly improved camera at greatly inflated prices, sell a shed load to the must have new brigade or the canon pros get em at greatly discounted prices for the product to be seen out on the street then when its sales figures start to drop the price falls..ready for the next model.. and to be honest most on here are actually helping Canon Improve there sales by justifying the price.. Listen to YOURSELVES !!

START realising and take a stance.. SAY NO (IEI)  TO Canon s Pricing structure and Demand a reasonable price to new product Pricing for Loyalty..to the Canon brand.. its you who can do this..

I have managed to get £1500-£2000 together towards  a decent Camera  BUT I WILL NOT give that money away ..SO am now going to Look at some NIKON (spit) hardware as well

SO CANON THIS MIGHT BE ONE SALE YOU HAVE LOST..

M (DISAPPOINTED..)

While there is some truth in what you are saying, remember that Canon does business NOT charity. With out getting into complex discussion on financial/market aspects, competition & demand drive prices. Even if we are able to make an educated guess on what their cost structure may be, I still doubt if Canon is making super normal profits in the long run. May i suggest we brush up on industry / product life cycles?
Clearly, there are products that cater to different market segments and it's up to us to decide on a product that "suits" us best.
IMHO, £1500-£2000 is still a lot of money to get the best that amount can get. There is always a better one out there or being churned out in the R&D labs.

dunkers

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #681 on: February 28, 2012, 12:47:32 AM »
I could never really wrap my head around the idea that people would jump ship just because they're not happy with just one item that either Canon or Nikon releases.

Sure, the item may not be what you expect but is it really worth it to dump something completely just because you're not happy with just one item? It's mentality like that which explains why people are getting divorced more often nowadays.

You've invested money into a company and system that I assume you've come to grow and love. Your current equipment has never let you down before....

But when one and just one new body gets released everybody loses their minds. If you continue with this mentality, you're never going to be happy with what you have.

I for one plan on investing into the 1DX or the 5D (depending on the specs of the latter) and using it for years to come. There isn't a single thing about the 1DX that I'm not happy about, aside from maybe the price tag. But seeing as I plan on sticking with that body for many years the price is worth it. As for the 5D, I really like rumored specs assuming it does around 8 fps.
5D3 | 60D | 100L IS | 70-200L II IS | 24-105L

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #681 on: February 28, 2012, 12:47:32 AM »

image2paint

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #682 on: February 28, 2012, 01:26:29 AM »
I know the date was updated to 2nd of march but wasn't there still going to be another announcement 28th feb? What ever happened to that ???

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #683 on: February 28, 2012, 01:33:17 AM »

I am not sure if you are just being sarcastic, but you realize that at 62mp, not more than 2-3 lenses in Canon's entire lineup could resolve enough detail at any aperture to actually use all those pixels, right? You max out at 46mp, which is about 116lp/mm, which is right about where Canon's newest L-series lenses top out at their best aperture as well...which seems to be somewhere between f/4 and f/5.6 most of the time. The only few lenses from Canon that I think could resolve enough detail for 62mp are the new 500mm and 600mm L II lenses (which as of yet are still unreleased) and possibly the forthcoming 200-400 L...and even then, their maximum aperture is f/4, so 173lp/mm.

I don't believe that is the case. I thought some lenses were measured well above that. Plus the total resolution is a combination of sensor and lens that is not direct. Even the worst kit ever made delivers a more detailed image on a 7D than a 40D. A 70-200 + 1.4x TC still delivers more detail on a 7D. A 300 2.8 + TWO TCs still does on a 7D too.

Well sure, the 40D is a 10mp sensor, where as the 7D is an 18mp sensor. Were talking a 33% increase in resolution for the 7D. If we take the 18-55 at 55/5.6, assuming it was a perfect lens (and we know its far from it) it could resolve 123 lp/mm. Assuming the 18-55 kit, given how poor its IQ is (I've owned a couple of these, of differing generations, and all of them exhibit remarkably bad CA at max aperture at all focal lengths), only resolves 100lp/mm. The 40D is incapable of resolving even that much at 87lp/mm, so moving from the 40D to the 7D, which can resolve 116lp/mm, is obviously going to capture more detail. ;)

The 300/2.8 is one of the few Canon lenses that approaches perfection at f/2.8 (and you really pay for it, too, at nearly $7000). I would say the 70-200/2.8 II is another (although based on the MTF charts, the original 70-200/2.8 I is NOT...but it would be the same situation as the 18-55 when comparing the 40D to the 7D with that lens, stacked TC's or not.) These are the reasons I try to evaluate resolution on this forum as spatial resolution...in line pairs per millimeter (vs. megapixels or line widths per picture height), as its easy to explain why you might see such an improvement when moving from a 40D to a 7D, even with Canon's bottom-barrel lenses.

Somehow I skimmed your response too quickly and thought I saw you listing 62lp/mm and 46 lp/mm limits  ;D.
But that said you still do a little better than just comparing lens to sensor since it is the combined system that determines the final results and you do a little better than you'd expect by that and even with 300 2.8 IS I and stacked TC on a 7D you can still do better than upscaling, but a lot more of your point is taken now that I read it as 62MP and 46MP hah. Guess I was a little too tired or distracted when I skimmed the post.

jrista

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #684 on: February 28, 2012, 02:14:20 AM »
Well sure, the 40D is a 10mp sensor, where as the 7D is an 18mp sensor. Were talking a 33% increase in resolution for the 7D. If we take the 18-55 at 55/5.6, assuming it was a perfect lens (and we know its far from it) it could resolve 123 lp/mm. Assuming the 18-55 kit, given how poor its IQ is (I've owned a couple of these, of differing generations, and all of them exhibit remarkably bad CA at max aperture at all focal lengths), only resolves 100lp/mm. The 40D is incapable of resolving even that much at 87lp/mm, so moving from the 40D to the 7D, which can resolve 116lp/mm, is obviously going to capture more detail. ;)

The 300/2.8 is one of the few Canon lenses that approaches perfection at f/2.8 (and you really pay for it, too, at nearly $7000). I would say the 70-200/2.8 II is another (although based on the MTF charts, the original 70-200/2.8 I is NOT...but it would be the same situation as the 18-55 when comparing the 40D to the 7D with that lens, stacked TC's or not.) These are the reasons I try to evaluate resolution on this forum as spatial resolution...in line pairs per millimeter (vs. megapixels or line widths per picture height), as its easy to explain why you might see such an improvement when moving from a 40D to a 7D, even with Canon's bottom-barrel lenses.

Somehow I skimmed your response too quickly and thought I saw you listing 62lp/mm and 46 lp/mm limits  ;D.
But that said you still do a little better than just comparing lens to sensor since it is the combined system that determines the final results and you do a little better than you'd expect by that and even with 300 2.8 IS I and stacked TC on a 7D you can still do better than upscaling, but a lot more of your point is taken now that I read it as 62MP and 46MP hah. Guess I was a little too tired or distracted when I skimmed the post.

No problem...things probably get lost in translation on these forums more often than not. ;) I'd be pretty surprised myself to see someone say a Canon lens was only capable og 62lp/mm at best!

When it comes to system MTF, its usually closer to a lowest-common-denominator than anything else. Its tough to nail it down precisely given the nature of various elements, such as low pass filter strength, use of bayer color filter array sensors, etc. Its also tough because the spatial resolution of a lens is dependent upon its aperture and how well optical aberrations are corrected...and the latter is never actually specified anywhere in any reliable or usable form. Most of the real MTF charts I've seen for Canon lenses indicate lp/mm resolutions well below what one would generally expect from a Canon lens (although sometimes thats due to the imaging sensor being a limiting factor, rather than the lens.) I think I estimate too high a lot of the time. Its all rough numbers anyway though, and you can only get accurate results by actually doing legit testing with actual gear.

The goal, for me at least, is to educate people a little better about real resolution, spatial resolution, so we can all compare sensors on a normalized basis, rather than simpy comparing megapixel counts...which rapidly becomes confusing when you throw in varying sensor sizes and pixel densities into the mix. (Which is apparent when people wonder how well lenses may deal with a 36mp FF Nikon sensor...despite the fact that its less dense than the 18mp Canon APS-C.)

mkrimmer

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #685 on: February 28, 2012, 02:18:51 AM »
maybe the thread is lost because of a regular nikon-/canon-diskussion? :)

Musouka

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #686 on: February 28, 2012, 04:45:13 AM »
There is no "one size fits all" in the end. The Nikonians themselves are divided over the best resolution for the D800(E).

[NR] Poll: Nikon D800 with 36MP or with 16MP sensor?

It's extremely hard for any company to please everyone. When the 7D specs were first revealed, many complained that the 18MP was too much and will affect the ISO performance. I personally don't use all the resolution the 7D has to offer but I'm fine with its low-light capabilities. So now when Canon decided to go the other way, they are again criticized for falling behind competition with their MP count.

In the end, there is no right or wrong. A company will not release any product without thorough market research. If Canon ended up releasing a 22MP 5DIII, this must have been what their market research indicated they should do. Whether it's a right or wrong move remains to be seen. Who knows, maybe an MP monster is also in the making.

I realize that studio photographers (and maybe wild life ones) would like to see a camera with the biggest MP they could possibly get. One has to ask what percentage of Canon's potential sales does this segment make. If the bread and butter is somewhere else, that's what Canon would naturally focus on. As a publicly-traded company, Canon has the responsibility of maximizing their shareholders' value by pursuing what the company perceives as the most profitable venture.

No one should be emotionally invested in a company (unless they own a huge share of it :P). I may or may not like certain decisions a company makes. If I'm highly dissatisfied, I can just take my business elsewhere. I can complain and say "the company doesn't get it" (and I may or might not be right in that regard). If enough people started complaining, the company should/would start to notice. Hmm, isn't that what actually happened with the MP and, if the specs are true, the AF? We can argue that Canon has actually listened to what their customer want in one regard. The price, as other mentioned, will be set by the market. If people perceived value in the company's offering, they will buy it. Otherwise, the product will just sit on the shelves. Remember how the price of 50D dropped quickly shortly after introduction because of the fierce competition from the D300? If people perceived that the better value is offered by the D800(E), they will just buy that and Canon will be forced to lower the price of the 5DIII in order to entice more customers to buy.

Personally, I'm completely satisfied with the the rumored specs of the 5DIII; not so much the rumored price. I will wait for the second patch to give Canon the time needed to correct any issues (remember the black dots in the 5D2?) and allow the price to drop a bit. Nikon makes wonderful cameras but I currently prefer the Canon system as a whole. Others may agree or disagree with my stance and they are free to do so. I'm sure each has his/her reasons.

That said, I appreciate all the technical details and discussions everyone brings to the table. We all should take these with a sense of humor and openness. There is no need to question other people's ethics or call them names. Just be cool and carry on  ;D

An interesting quote:

"If  you attack people's opinions, many react like addicts" -  Bernie Siegel

bycostello

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #687 on: February 28, 2012, 05:41:34 AM »
i likey dual slots.. not sure worth cost of upgrade though....

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #687 on: February 28, 2012, 05:41:34 AM »

bbe

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #688 on: February 28, 2012, 06:23:37 AM »
And what about a flash? Is nobody curently using a mark II missing the little popup flash?
Im in for a new body and prefere a ff. After reading hundreds of threaths and reviews i have concluded that the mark II is missing a decent af (which is important for me) but... Is it really that bad?

I want to experiment more low light so high iso and good af is neasasary. 7d sounds perfect but extends my glass so back to  5 d mark ii. This misses decent af (?) and a popup flash. So wait for mark III ?. This seems to get it all except..... The flash but for (if rumors are right) lets say € 1000,- (!) more.

I have for about € 1500 canon gear. I mention thet because nikon d700 seems to be a better option. What to do???

GL

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #689 on: February 28, 2012, 06:39:23 AM »
And what about a flash? Is nobody curently using a mark II missing the little popup flash?

I wouldn't buy the MkIII if it had  popup flash (which thankfully it doesn't).

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Re: *UPDATE* The Next 5D on March 2, 2012 [CR3]
« Reply #689 on: February 28, 2012, 06:39:23 AM »