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Author Topic: New speedlites - Am I the only one...  (Read 13939 times)

SPG

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2012, 04:55:23 PM »
I would be very surprised if Canon did not release optional transmitters and receivers for the 580 EX and for the current DSLRs. Of course, I would expect them to be more expensive than any third party triggers, but I just can't seem them passing up the opportunity.

From Canon's perspective they would look at this from the opposite position: Why would we kill the sales of our new 590 and 5DIII by letting our customers use their old gear?

As evidenced by Magic Lantern, there is a lot that the old cameras can do that Canon does not bother to enable. Remember that they're in the business of selling new cameras, not making old cameras do new things.

Sorry to be throwing water on this, but it just doesn't seem likely that Canon would do something that far outside it's own interests.

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2012, 04:55:23 PM »

briansquibb

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2012, 05:06:56 PM »
I'd be really surprised if the 590 was compatible with any existing system. Canon isn't exactly known for playing well with others. They still don't release specs of how any of their systems work, or when they change them, so every third party manufacturer has to reverse engineer Canon's system to get their gear to work with it.
That's not to say that Canon won't work with Pocket Wizard, but let's look at recent events...
1. The 580exII radio interference and fried circuit issues with Pocket Wizard. They both saw an issue, yet they wouldn't talk to each other about resolving it.
2. PW just released a new trigger and is really pushing it.
3. PW has to run on different frequencies for sale in the US vs EU.
Those three things would lead one to believe that these two companies aren't working together.

1. This was only a problem fo a very small number of 580s - a problem which also happened without the use of a PW

2. The new PW trigger is not related to the use of eTTL and so would not be of any interest to Canon

3. ALL radio devices run on different frequencies - this is a requirement by the individual countries.

Another case of attacking PW without checking facts first

-1

Maui5150

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2012, 05:45:35 PM »

Wow if this new flash were to be compatible with both the odin and pw systems.  I kind of doubt it, but i guess its time to wait and see!

Why do anything with the Odin.  While some people may like them, the install basis is tiny.  PW to Odins out there are what 100 - 1?  200 - 1?  (i.e. for every Odin out there, there are 100 to 200 PWs, as well as Strobe, Light Meters, and other equipment with PW BUILT IN.

And for the folks that further don't see the advantage of this... All of the sudden it allows CANON to sell SPEEDLIGHTS to NIKON users.

It also allows CANON to sell Speedlights to PENTAX or who ever else has an EXTERNAL SHOE and can fit the PW.  Let PW do the ETTL work and branch out into SONY etc all... Long and short which does Canon make more money, selling a SPEEDLIGHT that can be used with almost any camera, and with many systems, is ETTL, or only sell to Canon Users and try to convince an imbeded base do sell out their own gear. 

Will Canon do it?  Doubt it.  But they would double their sales of the 590 EX if they did.  Guaranteed.  And frankly I would rather sell twice as many speedlights than half as many triggers

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2012, 06:26:49 PM »

Wow if this new flash were to be compatible with both the odin and pw systems.  I kind of doubt it, but i guess its time to wait and see!

Why do anything with the Odin.  While some people may like them, the install basis is tiny.  PW to Odins out there are what 100 - 1?  200 - 1?  (i.e. for every Odin out there, there are 100 to 200 PWs, as well as Strobe, Light Meters, and other equipment with PW BUILT IN.

And for the folks that further don't see the advantage of this... All of the sudden it allows CANON to sell SPEEDLIGHTS to NIKON users.

It also allows CANON to sell Speedlights to PENTAX or who ever else has an EXTERNAL SHOE and can fit the PW.  Let PW do the ETTL work and branch out into SONY etc all... Long and short which does Canon make more money, selling a SPEEDLIGHT that can be used with almost any camera, and with many systems, is ETTL, or only sell to Canon Users and try to convince an imbeded base do sell out their own gear. 

Will Canon do it?  Doubt it.  But they would double their sales of the 590 EX if they did.  Guaranteed.  And frankly I would rather sell twice as many speedlights than half as many triggers

Just out of curiousity, would you recommend PW over Odin.  I only ask because I seriously haven't heard one bad thing about odin, but, have heard many complaints with PW's....
Owns 5Dmkiii, 6D, 16-35mm, 24mm 1.4, 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 85 mm 1.8, 100mm 2.8 macro, 1-600RT, 2 430 EX's, 1 video light

SPG

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2012, 06:29:05 PM »
I'd be really surprised if the 590 was compatible with any existing system. Canon isn't exactly known for playing well with others. They still don't release specs of how any of their systems work, or when they change them, so every third party manufacturer has to reverse engineer Canon's system to get their gear to work with it.
That's not to say that Canon won't work with Pocket Wizard, but let's look at recent events...
1. The 580exII radio interference and fried circuit issues with Pocket Wizard. They both saw an issue, yet they wouldn't talk to each other about resolving it.
2. PW just released a new trigger and is really pushing it.
3. PW has to run on different frequencies for sale in the US vs EU.
Those three things would lead one to believe that these two companies aren't working together.

1. This was only a problem fo a very small number of 580s - a problem which also happened without the use of a PW

2. The new PW trigger is not related to the use of eTTL and so would not be of any interest to Canon

3. ALL radio devices run on different frequencies - this is a requirement by the individual countries.

Another case of attacking PW without checking facts first

-1
Another case of attacking my post without bothering to see what point I was making.
I have nothing against Pocket Wizards and like where they're going with the PlusIII's (though I do run Odins now for other reasons). The point I was making which is still valid is that Canon and Pocket Wizard don't even seem to be talking to each other let alone collaborating on using their technology in a new flash. There has been zero indication that this has been even possibly in the works over the last year. Pocket Wizard is moving forward doing their thing, fixing problems with the 580 interference, introducing new models, etc while Canon is working on their own new products, fixing the fried 580's, etc.  Considering this reality, having a 590 with PW integration is nothing more than wishful thinking.

-2!

kennykodak

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2012, 06:34:34 PM »
i have a couple of 580EX 2's and pocket wizards.  i have never had much luck with the combination.  if a 590 or what ever is released, i'm jumping on it.

briansquibb

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2012, 06:35:33 PM »
I'd be really surprised if the 590 was compatible with any existing system. Canon isn't exactly known for playing well with others. They still don't release specs of how any of their systems work, or when they change them, so every third party manufacturer has to reverse engineer Canon's system to get their gear to work with it.
That's not to say that Canon won't work with Pocket Wizard, but let's look at recent events...
1. The 580exII radio interference and fried circuit issues with Pocket Wizard. They both saw an issue, yet they wouldn't talk to each other about resolving it.
2. PW just released a new trigger and is really pushing it.
3. PW has to run on different frequencies for sale in the US vs EU.
Those three things would lead one to believe that these two companies aren't working together.

1. This was only a problem fo a very small number of 580s - a problem which also happened without the use of a PW

2. The new PW trigger is not related to the use of eTTL and so would not be of any interest to Canon

3. ALL radio devices run on different frequencies - this is a requirement by the individual countries.

Another case of attacking PW without checking facts first

-1
Another case of attacking my post without bothering to see what point I was making.
I have nothing against Pocket Wizards and like where they're going with the PlusIII's (though I do run Odins now for other reasons). The point I was making which is still valid is that Canon and Pocket Wizard don't even seem to be talking to each other let alone collaborating on using their technology in a new flash. There has been zero indication that this has been even possibly in the works over the last year. Pocket Wizard is moving forward doing their thing, fixing problems with the 580 interference, introducing new models, etc while Canon is working on their own new products, fixing the fried 580's, etc.  Considering this reality, having a 590 with PW integration is nothing more than wishful thinking.

-2!

The points you made had no relevence to Canon and PW talking together - just a side swipe at PW.

You may suspect PW and Canon are not talking together, fair enough, but you did not present any evidence or links to support your suspicions

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2012, 06:35:33 PM »

wickidwombat

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2012, 06:35:45 PM »

Wow if this new flash were to be compatible with both the odin and pw systems.  I kind of doubt it, but i guess its time to wait and see!

Why do anything with the Odin.  While some people may like them, the install basis is tiny.  PW to Odins out there are what 100 - 1?  200 - 1?  (i.e. for every Odin out there, there are 100 to 200 PWs, as well as Strobe, Light Meters, and other equipment with PW BUILT IN.

And for the folks that further don't see the advantage of this... All of the sudden it allows CANON to sell SPEEDLIGHTS to NIKON users.

It also allows CANON to sell Speedlights to PENTAX or who ever else has an EXTERNAL SHOE and can fit the PW.  Let PW do the ETTL work and branch out into SONY etc all... Long and short which does Canon make more money, selling a SPEEDLIGHT that can be used with almost any camera, and with many systems, is ETTL, or only sell to Canon Users and try to convince an imbeded base do sell out their own gear. 

Will Canon do it?  Doubt it.  But they would double their sales of the 590 EX if they did.  Guaranteed.  And frankly I would rather sell twice as many speedlights than half as many triggers

Just out of curiousity, would you recommend PW over Odin.  I only ask because I seriously haven't heard one bad thing about odin, but, have heard many complaints with PW's....

I chose the odins because

1) never heard bad reports
2) much cheaper
3) the controls on the back of the transmitter are awesome it makes on the fly ettl controls super quick
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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2012, 06:39:37 PM »
I would be very surprised if Canon did not release optional transmitters and receivers for the 580 EX and for the current DSLRs. Of course, I would expect them to be more expensive than any third party triggers, but I just can't seem them passing up the opportunity.

From Canon's perspective they would look at this from the opposite position: Why would we kill the sales of our new 590 and 5DIII by letting our customers use their old gear?

As evidenced by Magic Lantern, there is a lot that the old cameras can do that Canon does not bother to enable. Remember that they're in the business of selling new cameras, not making old cameras do new things.

Sorry to be throwing water on this, but it just doesn't seem likely that Canon would do something that far outside it's own interests.

It's not outside their interests. Just the opposite.

First, there is nothing in the latest spec list for the 5DIII that says it will have a radio trigger. The 1Dx doesn't have a built in radio trigger in it either as far as I know. So, to fire the new 590 remotely will require a radio trigger for the camera anyway.  That's a given. (Yeah, Yeah, I know someone will say that you can use the new speedlite as a trigger. But Canon already offers an infrared trigger to give people an option, so as not to waste a speedlite in that way. They'll do the same with a radio triggered strobe.)

Canon knows that professionals and enthusiasts don't buy just one speedlite. Canon already makes sure that their newest models are backward compatible because they don't want to alienate customers that might be invested already with a half-dozen or more speedlites. I'm sure they'd rather sell receivers for the 580EX series than let a competitor have the business.

It's a no-brainer. Canon will offer receivers and triggers if they offer a radio-controlled speedlite.
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briansquibb

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2012, 06:41:33 PM »

3) the controls on the back of the transmitter are awesome it makes on the fly ettl controls super quick

What kind of controls are on the back?

I am rather tied in to PW at the moment (1 mini and 4 flex)- but doesn't mean I wont add some odins for small scale shooting with two or 3 flash

SPG

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2012, 06:48:59 PM »
Just out of curiousity, would you recommend PW over Odin.  I only ask because I seriously haven't heard one bad thing about odin, but, have heard many complaints with PW's....

Despite my perceived bias against Pocket Wizard, I've used both and I'm not an evangelist for either.

Pocket Wizards are incredibly popular amongst the pros. They're pretty much a standard so you'll see a ton of people using them. When a lot of people use something there's more chance of a negative comment here and there just based on sheer volume. For example, if 1% of compnay Y's triggers are bad and they have 36 million users, then you have 360,000 complaints. If you have 10% of company X's triggers go bad and there's only 100 people using them then you only have 10 complaints even though you are ten times more likely to have a bad one with company X. I'm not saying that is anything close to the failure rate of any brand, just the reality of having a metric craptonne of users out there with internet access. The flipside to this is also that you have a ton of people troubleshooting them and a ton of options to buy or sell them within that ton of users. You can pick them up at most decent camera stores, which means that you can always buy another unit or a replacement without waiting for shipping. PW also tends to be backward compatible so that the ones you buy today should still work with the ones from ten years ago and hopefully with the ones made ten years from now.
My own experience with PW has been that with the PlusII's I could really push the range on a good day and still get consistent performance, but then blow shot after shot at half the distance. That doesn't mean that they were crap, just that the conditions at that time weren't favorable and I couldn't tweak them to work. I haven't had the Odins for long enough to vouch for them in the same conditions, but so far so good. Another benefit of using PW is that everyone else does too, so you can always borrow or rent in a pinch.
Pocket Wizards are good, and I'd say better than most, but like everything they're not perfect. The reason I bought Odins this time was for the convenience of being able to dial in settings remotely and have reliable HSS. If I didn't need HSS or have to make lots of adjustments to hard to reach strobes, I would have bought more Pocket Wizards. As it was I just didn't like the PW flex system so I figured I'd take a chance on the Odins. YMMV.

SPG

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2012, 06:58:22 PM »
I'd be really surprised if the 590 was compatible with any existing system. Canon isn't exactly known for playing well with others. They still don't release specs of how any of their systems work, or when they change them, so every third party manufacturer has to reverse engineer Canon's system to get their gear to work with it.
That's not to say that Canon won't work with Pocket Wizard, but let's look at recent events...
1. The 580exII radio interference and fried circuit issues with Pocket Wizard. They both saw an issue, yet they wouldn't talk to each other about resolving it.
2. PW just released a new trigger and is really pushing it.
3. PW has to run on different frequencies for sale in the US vs EU.
Those three things would lead one to believe that these two companies aren't working together.

1. This was only a problem fo a very small number of 580s - a problem which also happened without the use of a PW

2. The new PW trigger is not related to the use of eTTL and so would not be of any interest to Canon

3. ALL radio devices run on different frequencies - this is a requirement by the individual countries.

Another case of attacking PW without checking facts first

-1
Another case of attacking my post without bothering to see what point I was making.
I have nothing against Pocket Wizards and like where they're going with the PlusIII's (though I do run Odins now for other reasons). The point I was making which is still valid is that Canon and Pocket Wizard don't even seem to be talking to each other let alone collaborating on using their technology in a new flash. There has been zero indication that this has been even possibly in the works over the last year. Pocket Wizard is moving forward doing their thing, fixing problems with the 580 interference, introducing new models, etc while Canon is working on their own new products, fixing the fried 580's, etc.  Considering this reality, having a 590 with PW integration is nothing more than wishful thinking.

-2!

The points you made had no relevence to Canon and PW talking together - just a side swipe at PW.

You may suspect PW and Canon are not talking together, fair enough, but you did not present any evidence or links to support your suspicions

You're just focusing on the fact that I mentioned the 580exII issue and Pocket Wizard. That little episode is actually a really good indicator that the two companies aren't working together. Think about it... PW had to commission their own study and report over it, they even said that they couldn't get Canon to address their concerns, and even their fix for the interference seems to have been ignored by Canon. Doesn't sound like two companies working together, does it?
My second point about the introduction of the PlusIII's is to illustrate that PW is clearly on their own schedule and plan.
The third point about frequency differences is that if you were going to manage an inventory for a global company you'd want to limit the number of SKU's on any product especially if a variance, or even use, would create a legal or regulatory issue.
I'm really not trying to start a pissing match over this. Like I said earlier, I have no grudge against PW, it's just that I don't see PW integration as meshing well with Canon's sales objectives or it's corporate culture. Of course like anyone trying to predict the future without working for either company, it's a lot of speculation.

briansquibb

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2012, 07:02:31 PM »
The reason I bought Odins this time was for the convenience of being able to dial in settings remotely and have reliable HSS. If I didn't need HSS or have to make lots of adjustments to hard to reach strobes, I would have bought more Pocket Wizards. As it was I just didn't like the PW flex system so I figured I'd take a chance on the Odins. YMMV.

I got my flex PW just because of the automated and optimized HSS which has proven very sucessful.               

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2012, 07:02:31 PM »

SPG

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2012, 07:10:03 PM »
I would be very surprised if Canon did not release optional transmitters and receivers for the 580 EX and for the current DSLRs. Of course, I would expect them to be more expensive than any third party triggers, but I just can't seem them passing up the opportunity.

From Canon's perspective they would look at this from the opposite position: Why would we kill the sales of our new 590 and 5DIII by letting our customers use their old gear?

As evidenced by Magic Lantern, there is a lot that the old cameras can do that Canon does not bother to enable. Remember that they're in the business of selling new cameras, not making old cameras do new things.

Sorry to be throwing water on this, but it just doesn't seem likely that Canon would do something that far outside it's own interests.

It's not outside their interests. Just the opposite.

First, there is nothing in the latest spec list for the 5DIII that says it will have a radio trigger. The 1Dx doesn't have a built in radio trigger in it either as far as I know. So, to fire the new 590 remotely will require a radio trigger for the camera anyway.  That's a given. (Yeah, Yeah, I know someone will say that you can use the new speedlite as a trigger. But Canon already offers an infrared trigger to give people an option, so as not to waste a speedlite in that way. They'll do the same with a radio triggered strobe.)

Canon knows that professionals and enthusiasts don't buy just one speedlite. Canon already makes sure that their newest models are backward compatible because they don't want to alienate customers that might be invested already with a half-dozen or more speedlites. I'm sure they'd rather sell receivers for the 580EX series than let a competitor have the business.

It's a no-brainer. Canon will offer receivers and triggers if they offer a radio-controlled speedlite.
What I meant, but didn't make clear (sorry!) was that I don't think that Canon will go with someone else's trigger technology or frequency. Canon prefers a closed system with it's products wherever possible, so yeah...they would come out with a new trigger as well to keep it all in the family. Also, taking a long view from Canon's perspective there is more incentive to migrate users to the rumored Canon trigger system and Speedlights than to accommodate users of third party systems.

briansquibb

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2012, 07:10:55 PM »

You're just focusing on the fact that I mentioned the 580exII issue and Pocket Wizard.

I think you are misreading my replies as this interpretation  cannot be made from my replies. To much smoke and mirrors for me in your words :o :o :o

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Re: New speedlites - Am I the only one...
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2012, 07:10:55 PM »