Not a Canon vs. Nikon Thread

[unfocused]

Are the "two second-tier bodies" you refer to Sony and Sigma, or what? 

No.  First tier = Canon 1D X, Nikon D4.  Second tier = Canon 5DIII/X, Nikon D800.

Thanks Neuro. I guess I didn't make myself clear.

I think I would go with those that say that at the 1DX and D4 level, there is a very narrow customer base and their needs are consistent and well understood by both companies, so the bodies tend to converge.

On the other hand, I would also agree with the idea that for the 5D and D800 both companies were trying to address the complaints of their customers.

In my mind, this confirms something I've thought about. We tend to think Canon and Nikon are in some sort of death battle to steal each other's customers. But, I suspect they are far more interested (at this level at least) in keeping their base happy and solidifying that base of customers. Old axiom that it is always cheaper and more profitable to retain an existing customer and "upsell" that customer, than it is to capture a new customer.

I expect both companies will watch the sales of their respective products and if the sales are disappointing we may see some adjustments, but I don't think we can automatically assume that Canon will introduce a mega-pixel killer just because Nikon has one, nor do I expect Nikon to automatically introduce a lower megapixel model just because Canon has one.

[neuroanatomist]

In my mind, this confirms something I've thought about. We tend to think Canon and Nikon are in some sort of death battle to steal each other's customers. But, I suspect they are far more interested (at this level at least) in keeping their base happy and solidifying that base of customers. Old axiom that it is always cheaper and more profitable to retain an existing customer and "upsell" that customer, than it is to capture a new customer.

I've stated this sort of idea in the past.  IMO, the real competition between Canon and Nikon is not at (in Canon terms) the 1-series level, the xD level, or even the xxD series level - it's at the entry level Rebel/xxxD bodies.  The bodies we're discussing here (e.g. 5DIII vs. D800) cost thousands of dollars, and represent the first dSLR purchase for a vanishingly small number of users.  By the time a user is ready to spend thousands of dollars, most likely they're already invested in the 'system' and have some level of brand loyalty, or at least, familiarity, and that will be a stronger driver of purchases than the specs of a given camera body.

[Stu_bert]

Interesting if you go across to Nikon Rumors that the poll has their readerbase 58:42% in favour of the D800 having the same sensor as the D4 at 16MP. So much for research !?!?!

[psolberg]

Interesting if you go across to Nikon Rumors that the poll has their readerbase 58:42% in favour of the D800 having the same sensor as the D4 at 16MP. So much for research !?!?!

I don't think you can take a poll like that to mean anything. first of all, the nikon guys who bought a D700 did it for the low light performance regardless of the low pixel count. so off course they are going to say that.

second, take that poll a year from now once people start shooting and you'll see a drastic change once they realize the image quality of the D800 blows the D700 out of the water.

third, have you EVER seen an audience of fans side with the company they are fans of? lol. just look at the 5DIII reactions. half the people are up in arms too!!

[V8Beast]

The 5DII and D700 were already great products. Canon and Nikon merely addressed the most glaring weakness of both bodies. Canon improved AF and speed in the 5DIII,  and Nikon improved the resolution in the D800. IMHO, it's as simple as that.

[KeithR]

IMO, it is simple.

Canon failed to predict nikon completely.

I don't believe for a second that Canon even tries to second-guess Nikon.

Canon has its own strategy (which most people are very happy to buy into - the whiners on the internet don't represent the great majority of Canon users out there) and carries on regardless, secure in the knowledge that even cameras the whiners insist are the worst things ever to come out of a camera-maker's doors, will sell like hot cakes.

And they do.

[KeithR]

the nikon guys who bought a D700 did it for the low light performance regardless of the low pixel count.

Not because that's all there was if they wanted FF and didn't want/didn't want to spend the money on, a pro "brick"?

I think you'll find that for many, that was indeed the reason for them buying the D700.

[Marsu42]

By that I mean that I consider good conversion and PP skills to be essential aspects of a professional 'tog's skill-set [...] But here's the bigger point: pixel density doesn't matter. Sensor size is what dictates high(er) ISO IQ (all things being equal, which they're not if we're talking across generations of sensor)

+1 for that  - but please don't spread the fact about pp being important, I might try to earn some money sometime with this :-)

Another thing that isn't as highly regarded as sensor size and iso noise is the usability of the body and the on-board software. I'd say it's easier to shoot good pictures if you're not fumbling with your camera and have advanced software capabilities like with magic lantern (which is the reason I didn't get a Nikon).

[psolberg]

IMO, it is simple.

Canon failed to predict nikon completely.

I don't believe for a second that Canon even tries to second-guess Nikon.

Canon has its own strategy (which most people are very happy to buy into - the whiners on the internet don't represent the great majority of Canon users out there) and carries on regardless, secure in the knowledge that even cameras the whiners insist are the worst things ever to come out of a camera-maker's doors, will sell like hot cakes.

And they do.

sorry but they do every company looks over their shoulder at what the competition is up to. specially in high dollar business like these. if you think canon doesn't follow nikon and vice versa, then you haven't watch the camera business for long.

[KeithR]

then you haven't watch the camera business for long.

Watching it VERY carefully for a number of years, actually.

I expected a comment like this, so here's a question for you: point out to me any recent Canon DSLR which is unequivocally and obviously a direct reaction to a Nikon release, or any Nikon that is clearly a direct response to a Canon...

There aren't any. Each company continues to go its own way, very carefully not stepping on the other's toes.

And it has been like that for a long time: loads of overlaps, but hardly any - if any at all - directly comparable/competing cameras.

Like I say, I've been watching. But I've also been taking notice.

[Marsu42]

I expected a comment like this, so here's a question for you: point out to me any recent Canon DSLR which is unequivocally and obviously a direct reaction to a Nikon release, or any Nikon that is clearly a direct response to a Canon...

60D vs D7000? This was the competition I chose from, but of course it is hard to say if the D7000 was a "response" because I don't know what Nikon knew about the Canon product maps when they released their 16MP body shortly after the again 18MP 60D.

[K-amps]

IMO, it is simple.

Canon failed to predict nikon completely.

I don't believe for a second that Canon even tries to second-guess Nikon.

Canon has its own strategy (which most people are very happy to buy into - the whiners on the internet don't represent the great majority of Canon users out there) and carries on regardless, secure in the knowledge that even cameras the whiners insist are the worst things ever to come out of a camera-maker's doors, will sell like hot cakes.

And they do.

The internet is now becoming a much larger representation of the market than was 15 years back. Unless organizations adapt, they will relegate themselves to the dustbins of corporate history. Look what Amazon did to companies that ignored the reality of the internet.

Every company does an opportunity and threat analysis, it HAS to, in order to survive. The most common threat is a strong competitor. I agree though that organizations cannot survive on only listening to what you have described as "whiners" since some people are seldom pleased perhaps, but if either Canon or Nikon ignore the other, the gap between the 2 would grow.... no one wants to lose out.

In the good old days Consumer market research was done on word of mouth and asking the "sales person" and reading some reviews on mags. Now, people do all that on the internet (infact some zealots band together and try and predict new products too    ) ...