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Author Topic: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??  (Read 93318 times)

Marsu42

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #270 on: April 15, 2012, 06:34:36 AM »
The 1.3 sensor is much cheaper to produce than ff, so it will be possible to continue for Canon to produce bodies in the price range of the 7D/5DII whilst delivering technological improvements

They certainly could - but why would they want to? They've got a nice split into an amateur and pro market and can deliver different strategies to them while having the ef-s barrier between them - that's why they made sure you cannot use ef-s on full frame, unlike Nikon dx/fx. As it stands, Canon gains from this split *because* there's no aps-h middle ground, but if you want to improve upon your aps-c sensor, you have to scrap your ef-s lenses and pay big money.

How many really top quality ef-s lens are there to really consider?

You're forgetting the highly regarded Tokina 11-16 & Sigma 8-16, there are other things than Canon out there.

APS-C is a budget technology nowadays, technology has moved on and as photographers we should always be aiming for the best.

Best pictures - yes. Best (i.e. highest) system price and largest cameras - no. If you wanted that, you probably wouldn't be writing here, but sitting behind your 50k$ middle format camera with some 10$k lenses.

I think aps-c is a budget technology because it's made a budget technology - it's still a larger sensor than most system cameras. And while it has the disadvantage of the smaller viewfinder, it does have some advantages over full frame: Easier to build quality ultrawides, smaller bodies because of the smaller mirror. The only point aps-c is so screwed is that the traditional 35mm film uses the so-said full frame format and ef lenses, but that's just a historic fact. With each upgraded sensor generation, for your usual shots there will be less and less need for full frame.

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #270 on: April 15, 2012, 06:34:36 AM »

briansquibb

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #271 on: April 15, 2012, 08:18:32 AM »

APS-C is a budget technology nowadays, technology has moved on and as photographers we should always be aiming for the best.

Best pictures - yes. Best (i.e. highest) system price and largest cameras - no. If you wanted that, you probably wouldn't be writing here, but sitting behind your 50k$ middle format camera with some 10$k lenses.

I think aps-c is a budget technology because it's made a budget technology - it's still a larger sensor than most system cameras. And while it has the disadvantage of the smaller viewfinder, it does have some advantages over full frame: Easier to build quality ultrawides, smaller bodies because of the smaller mirror. The only point aps-c is so screwed is that the traditional 35mm film uses the so-said full frame format and ef lenses, but that's just a historic fact. With each upgraded sensor generation, for your usual shots there will be less and less need for full frame.

I have no issue with aps-c, what I am proposing is that Canon fill that ground that is currently being ignored ie the mid range that is between aps-c and ff and give the 7D owners a reasonably priced upgrade path

Marsu42

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #272 on: April 15, 2012, 08:25:28 AM »
I have no issue with aps-c, what I am proposing is that Canon fill that ground that is currently being ignored ie the mid range that is between aps-c and ff and give the 7D owners a reasonably priced upgrade path

That's what I was writing about, too, and a question only Canon marketing looking at their sales stats and research could answer: Why offer a reasonably priced upgrade path if users will take the unreasonably priced one, too, if there is no other one available?

But I'm absolutely in favor of an aps-h model at a somewhat affordable price and would get it over a 7d any moment, but I just don't think it'll happen.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 08:51:13 AM by Marsu42 »

Musouka

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #273 on: April 15, 2012, 08:35:05 AM »
But what if the rumored $2K FF became a reality? Heck the 5D2 is currently selling at $2200.

Surely Canon won't be charging a similar price for an APS-H model, would they? The 7D BO debuted for $1700 and currently retails for around than $1550. Seeing the recent trends in Canon's pricing, a successor would most probably be priced at $1800-$2000.

Maybe that rumored FF is the upgrade path?

briansquibb

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #274 on: April 15, 2012, 08:48:37 AM »
5DII is hardly an upgrade for a sport aps-c where a good AF and fps is required

A aps-h with the same spec as the current 7D - but with the AF, IQ and high iso would be an attractive upgrade.

Think of the L lens Canon would start selling - and also ease the path for dual body ownership

The cost of the body is significantly smaller than the cost of the lens and other acessories

!Xabbu

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #275 on: April 15, 2012, 11:36:39 AM »
But what if the rumored $2K FF became a reality? Heck the 5D2 is currently selling at $2200.

Surely Canon won't be charging a similar price for an APS-H model, would they? The 7D BO debuted for $1700 and currently retails for around than $1550. Seeing the recent trends in Canon's pricing, a successor would most probably be priced at $1800-$2000.

Maybe that rumored FF is the upgrade path?

Yes, it's selling for $2.2K, but it has mediocre FPS and AF. I wouldn't pay that much money for a camera which will miss the shots in lots of situations. If someone is solely a landscape and studio photographer it is of course a great bargain.
However, I would much rather pay between $2K - $2.5K for an improved 7D with an APS-C sensor, which addresses the current issues - better high ISO performance, ... - and some other nice upgrades (like further improved AF, Digic V, ...)

Musouka

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #276 on: April 15, 2012, 12:53:23 PM »
Okay, I made a mistake by mentioning the 5D2 which made you concentrate on it  ::) I apologize for the confusion.

I was mainly talking about the rumored entry level FF camera. Surely, it would have better AF than the current 5D2... maybe even the AF from the 7D. Well, let's wait and see if that ever happens.

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #276 on: April 15, 2012, 12:53:23 PM »

Marsu42

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #277 on: April 15, 2012, 12:57:07 PM »
I was mainly talking about the rumored entry level FF camera. Surely, it would have better AF than the current 5D2... maybe even the AF from the 7D. Well, let's wait and see if that ever happens.

If there ever is a successor to the 5d2 as an entry full frame body, Canon will make sure it retains a huge gap to the 5d3. And there aren't too many things that come into mind: Build quality for one, and then af. That's why I guess the entry ff will be a cheaper to produce, tuned down 5d2 with another name and the af of 60d line, not 7d.

takoman46

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #278 on: April 15, 2012, 07:36:27 PM »
5DII is hardly an upgrade for a sport aps-c where a good AF and fps is required

A aps-h with the same spec as the current 7D - but with the AF, IQ and high iso would be an attractive upgrade.

Think of the L lens Canon would start selling - and also ease the path for dual body ownership

The cost of the body is significantly smaller than the cost of the lens and other acessories

I realize there is a lot of concern with 7D owners not knowing what their future will hold in the fields of sport photography... but shouldn't one use a 1DX for sports photography? And if they can't afford a 1DX, the 5D Mark III is also seen as a viable alternative for sports shooting.  Especially with another FF body being added to the line up at the entry-level, I don't know if there would be justification to have two more prosumer aps-c bodies above the rebel line. Additionally, they are adding a 1DC to the FF line up as well... So maybe they will still keep an expanded aps-c line around in the future. But at the 7D price point, I think we might be looking at an entry level FF rather than a 7D successor. Maybe the entry level FF will have a decent continuous shooting rate but take cuts on ISO, AF (maybe keeping a 19pt), and IQ and resolution. It might be called a 6D???...

briansquibb

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #279 on: April 16, 2012, 02:24:56 AM »
5DII is hardly an upgrade for a sport aps-c where a good AF and fps is required

A aps-h with the same spec as the current 7D - but with the AF, IQ and high iso would be an attractive upgrade.

Think of the L lens Canon would start selling - and also ease the path for dual body ownership

The cost of the body is significantly smaller than the cost of the lens and other acessories

I realize there is a lot of concern with 7D owners not knowing what their future will hold in the fields of sport photography... but shouldn't one use a 1DX for sports photography? And if they can't afford a 1DX, the 5D Mark III is also seen as a viable alternative for sports shooting.  Especially with another FF body being added to the line up at the entry-level, I don't know if there would be justification to have two more prosumer aps-c bodies above the rebel line. Additionally, they are adding a 1DC to the FF line up as well... So maybe they will still keep an expanded aps-c line around in the future. But at the 7D price point, I think we might be looking at an entry level FF rather than a 7D successor. Maybe the entry level FF will have a decent continuous shooting rate but take cuts on ISO, AF (maybe keeping a 19pt), and IQ and resolution. It might be called a 6D???...

I am sure that the 1DX would manage for sports and at a pinch, birding. Not so sure that the 5DIII would be useful for anything more than occasional sports and birding use.

However we then get back to the issue of the lack of reach of a ff and the extra lens you need to achieve the same image.

The simple arithmetic shows that the 500mm:
- 1.6 gives 800mm equivalent
- 1.3 gives 650mm equivalent
- ff gives 500mm equivalent

I cannot imagine that a 7D owner with a 500mm used for birding would want an upgrade that would mean dropping $5k+ for the 1Dx and $10k+ for an 800 - just to take the same pictures. A 7D owner with a 600 would have nowhere to go.

It isn't even as if an 800 can be used with a 1.4 as the 1Dx doesn't support f/8 AF

The gap is very large between a 1.6 and a ff - what I am suggesting is that a 1.3 aps-h in a 5DIII shell would be an easy solution to help bridge that gap. It is proven (and good) technology that would give Canon a mid range sports shooter with significantly better IQ and low light performance than the 7D plus the proven potential to support significantly more mps.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 02:26:33 AM by briansquibb »

dlleno

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #280 on: April 16, 2012, 04:47:32 PM »
5DII is hardly an upgrade for a sport aps-c where a good AF and fps is required

A aps-h with the same spec as the current 7D - but with the AF, IQ and high iso would be an attractive upgrade.

Think of the L lens Canon would start selling - and also ease the path for dual body ownership

The cost of the body is significantly smaller than the cost of the lens and other acessories

I realize there is a lot of concern with 7D owners not knowing what their future will hold in the fields of sport photography... but shouldn't one use a 1DX for sports photography? And if they can't afford a 1DX, the 5D Mark III is also seen as a viable alternative for sports shooting.  Especially with another FF body being added to the line up at the entry-level, I don't know if there would be justification to have two more prosumer aps-c bodies above the rebel line. Additionally, they are adding a 1DC to the FF line up as well... So maybe they will still keep an expanded aps-c line around in the future. But at the 7D price point, I think we might be looking at an entry level FF rather than a 7D successor. Maybe the entry level FF will have a decent continuous shooting rate but take cuts on ISO, AF (maybe keeping a 19pt), and IQ and resolution. It might be called a 6D???...

I am sure that the 1DX would manage for sports and at a pinch, birding. Not so sure that the 5DIII would be useful for anything more than occasional sports and birding use.

However we then get back to the issue of the lack of reach of a ff and the extra lens you need to achieve the same image.

The simple arithmetic shows that the 500mm:
- 1.6 gives 800mm equivalent
- 1.3 gives 650mm equivalent
- ff gives 500mm equivalent

I cannot imagine that a 7D owner with a 500mm used for birding would want an upgrade that would mean dropping $5k+ for the 1Dx and $10k+ for an 800 - just to take the same pictures. A 7D owner with a 600 would have nowhere to go.

It isn't even as if an 800 can be used with a 1.4 as the 1Dx doesn't support f/8 AF

The gap is very large between a 1.6 and a ff - what I am suggesting is that a 1.3 aps-h in a 5DIII shell would be an easy solution to help bridge that gap. It is proven (and good) technology that would give Canon a mid range sports shooter with significantly better IQ and low light performance than the 7D plus the proven potential to support significantly more mps.

exactly, +1 on that.  its hard to imagine Canon abandoning the the crop body for serious wildlife.  I mean beyond the current xxD line which is basically an upscale rebel.    Just because Canon's announcement implied that the 1D4 would rest, doesn't mean the 1.3 is going away or that Canon would abandon the pro level wildlife photographers.  What form that will take is the question -  I'm not convinced that will be a 7D2 but I would certainly cheer if it was!   Speaking of upselling though -- a 1.3 7D would be quite an upsell for the recreational wildlifers.  Do you see the 1D4 crowd migrating to a body named higher than 1?

briansquibb

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #281 on: April 16, 2012, 05:44:38 PM »

exactly, +1 on that.  its hard to imagine Canon abandoning the the crop body for serious wildlife.  I mean beyond the current xxD line which is basically an upscale rebel.    Just because Canon's announcement implied that the 1D4 would rest, doesn't mean the 1.3 is going away or that Canon would abandon the pro level wildlife photographers.  What form that will take is the question -  I'm not convinced that will be a 7D2 but I would certainly cheer if it was!   Speaking of upselling though -- a 1.3 7D would be quite an upsell for the recreational wildlifers.  Do you see the 1D4 crowd migrating to a body named higher than 1?

I think if the specs were right then they would move - 3D sounds good. Imagine a 1D4 with 22mps - the video would be great as well.


smirkypants

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #282 on: April 16, 2012, 07:07:44 PM »
I think if the specs were right then they would move - 3D sounds good. Imagine a 1D4 with 22mps - the video would be great as well.
Definitely. With the 5D3 there are plenty of former 1D-something users "downgrading." Most people who are sophisticated enough to buy a series 1 camera know enough to look at features not model numbers. How many studio photographers are really going to purchase a 1D something over a 5D3? The answer is, not that many. Just show me the specs and I can make up my mind. Hell, if it shot 8fps,  a 1.6 crop and in all other ways matched the 5D3, I'd buy it even if it were named after a male sex organ.

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #282 on: April 16, 2012, 07:07:44 PM »

briansquibb

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #283 on: April 17, 2012, 12:18:06 AM »
I think if the specs were right then they would move - 3D sounds good. Imagine a 1D4 with 22mps - the video would be great as well.
Definitely. With the 5D3 there are plenty of former 1D-something users "downgrading." Most people who are sophisticated enough to buy a series 1 camera know enough to look at features not model numbers. How many studio photographers are really going to purchase a 1D something over a 5D3? The answer is, not that many. Just show me the specs and I can make up my mind. Hell, if it shot 8fps,  a 1.6 crop and in all other ways matched the 5D3, I'd buy it even if it were named after a male sex organ.

History shows that many 1DS2 shooters moved to the 5DII instead of the 1DS3.

However the serious BIF shooters on the whole will go for the best rather than the cheapest

dlleno

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #284 on: April 17, 2012, 06:39:52 PM »

exactly, +1 on that.  its hard to imagine Canon abandoning the the crop body for serious wildlife.  I mean beyond the current xxD line which is basically an upscale rebel.    Just because Canon's announcement implied that the 1D4 would rest, doesn't mean the 1.3 is going away or that Canon would abandon the pro level wildlife photographers.  What form that will take is the question -  I'm not convinced that will be a 7D2 but I would certainly cheer if it was!   Speaking of upselling though -- a 1.3 7D would be quite an upsell for the recreational wildlifers.  Do you see the 1D4 crowd migrating to a body named higher than 1?

I think if the specs were right then they would move - 3D sounds good. Imagine a 1D4 with 22mps - the video would be great as well.

+1 the hesitancy might come  if Canon really does abandon the 1.3 and a 1.6x 7D2 becomes the only wildlife body.  But we haven't seen any real evidence that 1.3 is going away -- only that 1D and 1Ds are merging, which means a 1.3 could still  appear in a different model.  I like the 3D suggestion in fact.

This would leave the 7D as the premium 1.6x wildlife body, and the xxD as the premium rebel.  I have to admit, having suggested that 7D would be confusing with 70D, that 1D and 1Ds didn't seem to cause any undo discomfort, save the fact that they are merging now

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Re: Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??
« Reply #284 on: April 17, 2012, 06:39:52 PM »