1D Mark IV versus 5D3

[munsoned]

I was thinking about switching my cameras around, and using my 5D II with the long telephoto.  Here is my current setup:

5D II w/ 24-105 (80% of the time) or 16-35 ii (20%)
1D II w/ 100-400(130-520mm) 100%

The reason i use the 24-105 is because if i use the 16-35, it's just way too wide and i would have to get very close to the family which is really bad.  I miss a lot of shots that i need at least 50mm for, since i am limited to 130mm on the other camera.  The gap between the 16-35mm and 130mm-520mm is almost 100mm!  if i switch bodies, the gap would be 21-50mm to 100-400mm and only 50mm, and i lose the super wide that i don't use much. 

1D III  - 21-50mm or 31-135mm or 130-520mm
5D II  - 16-35mm or 24-105mm or 100-400mm
1D II  - 21-50mm or 31-135mm or 130-520mm

Now that you kind of understand the situation more, i wonder if a FF will be better with my 100-400mm.  I guess that is the main question.  The only other lenses i would see myself buying for this job would be the 24-70mm II and the 70-200mm II.  I think i'm covered on the wide side, i need to upgrade my 100-400 because of the lack of weather sealing.  I also have the 1.4x and 2x II's that i stupidly purchased not too long ago. 

[Vertvorb]

I'm having trouble deciding also. Currently I have a 7D and love it for its 8fps speed and advanced af system. I do miss the full frame from my old 5d mk1 though (i loved the depth of field etc), but felt I could never switch to a 5d mk2 as it was too slow.
So i was hoping waiting for a fast 5d mk3 to come out, except its not quite as fast as I was hoping for.

I shoot about 75% sports (mostly mountainbiking) and 25% everthing else (events, some weddings etc). Often when i photograph in either situation I am shooting in low light, I dont like to use a flash so I use a big aperture and bump up the iso.

So ideally I want something fast with the better af system and something that can shoot well in low light, + in all weather situations. I really wish the 5d mk3 was faster.

There is no way i can afford a 1dx

The thing about the 1d mk4 that worries me is its a crop sensor and how would image quality compare to that of the 5d mk3. The other thing that worries me is how much better in image quality is the 1d mk4 over the 7d?

[WillShootPhotos]

(snip)
I shoot about 75% sports (mostly mountainbiking) and 25% everthing else (events, some weddings etc). Often when i photograph in either situation I am shooting in low light, I dont like to use a flash so I use a big aperture and bump up the iso.
(snip)
The thing about the 1d mk4 that worries me is its a crop sensor and how would image quality compare to that of the 5d mk3. The other thing that worries me is how much better in image quality is the 1d mk4 over the 7d?

Vertvorb:
I've been shooting with a combo of the 5D2 and a pair of 1D4 bodies for a while now. I'm mostly sports shooter (pro cycling from a motorcycle) with other contract work that ranges from other sports, to aerial, to architecture, to product, to travel... a nice variety.

I think it is pretty easy to say you're best bet would be the 1D4 over the 5D3.

Going down in fps will be (imho) the the biggest thing that should steer you away from the 5D3.  The build quality of the 1Danything is so rock solid, and you don't have the battery door or grip interface to be a weak point in weather sealing with the 1D4. I've shot quite a few stages from a moto in the rain with 1D bodies hanging from my shoulders from the moto and personally have never had one fail yet.

As to image quality - keep in mind that you're going from a 1.6x crop factor with the 7D, so either would add better bokeh to your shots, tho - yes - the 5D3 would give you better bokeh than the 1D4, but the 1D4 is a pro body and since the 1DX still isn't shipping yet - is the big dog for Canon sports shooters... great image quality is part of that reason.
 
I did a comparison of a shot made with FF, 1.3x and 1.6x crop bodies, you can see the results (and my method and reasoning etc)here:
http://blog.willshootphotography.com/2009/02/canon-crop-comparison-5d-vs-1d-mark-ii-n-vs-50d-bokeh.html

the differences are not drastic, but they are there.  Also - much of that focus fall off "quality" comes from the glass you're using, not just the sensor crop factor...

As for the AF system - having used the 7D - the 1D4 will blow it away... your keeper rate from your mtb shoots will soar.  It is a powerful and flexible system.  The IQ will still work great for your wedding gigs etc...

My dos centavos would be to pull the trigger on the 1D4, either new or a good quality used one.

[briansquibb]

As for the AF system - having used the 7D - the 1D4 will blow it away... your keeper rate from your mtb shoots will soar.  It is a powerful and flexible system.  The IQ will still work great for your wedding gigs etc...

My dos centavos would be to pull the trigger on the 1D4, either new or a good quality used one.

+1 Exactly my experience too

[Michael_pfh]

I'm having trouble deciding also. Currently I have a 7D and love it for its 8fps speed and advanced af system. I do miss the full frame from my old 5d mk1 though (i loved the depth of field etc), but felt I could never switch to a 5d mk2 as it was too slow.
So i was hoping waiting for a fast 5d mk3 to come out, except its not quite as fast as I was hoping for.

I shoot about 75% sports (mostly mountainbiking) and 25% everthing else (events, some weddings etc). Often when i photograph in either situation I am shooting in low light, I dont like to use a flash so I use a big aperture and bump up the iso.

So ideally I want something fast with the better af system and something that can shoot well in low light, + in all weather situations. I really wish the 5d mk3 was faster.

There is no way i can afford a 1dx

The thing about the 1d mk4 that worries me is its a crop sensor and how would image quality compare to that of the 5d mk3. The other thing that worries me is how much better in image quality is the 1d mk4 over the 7d?

I did upgrade from 7D to 1D4 in January and am very happy with my decision. The 1D4 is a great camera and the 1.3 crop is kind of best/worst of both worlds FF vs. crop. The IQ of the 1D4 is subjectively a bit better than the 7D but without pixel counting it is not a very visible difference (provided you are shooting at the same length). The AF and ISO performance however are far better than on the 7D which in the end might result in way better IQ in certain situations.

Given your use case of shooting fast MB action and your need for best possible weather sealing the 1D4 is a great choice. I recommend to rent one for a weekend or to try it out at your local Canon dealer, I was really impressed with the 1D4 from the first moment taking into account that I love my 7D.

[Vertvorb]

Someone at work told me that the multilpier on a crop body not only multiplies the focal length but also the apeture meaning a f2.8 lens on a 1.3 crop body a 1 stop smaller (f3.5) and 2 stops on a 1.6 body. Is there much truth in that?

[Alker]

Someone at work told me that the multilpier on a crop body not only multiplies the focal length but also the apeture meaning a f2.8 lens on a 1.3 crop body a 1 stop smaller (f3.5) and 2 stops on a 1.6 body. Is there much truth in that?

The DOF at the same aperture is thinner on a FF then on a 1.3 crop, etc.

[briansquibb]

1D4 gives superb IQ. It also has the ability the set min/max shutter speeds in AV mode and have (the equivalent to ) auto iso.

Picture taken today  with 400 f/2.8, 1/320th, iso100, f/2.8, ec +1/3

This is the kind of environment where 10fps is priceless

[neuroanatomist]

Someone at work told me that the multilpier on a crop body not only multiplies the focal length but also the apeture meaning a f2.8 lens on a 1.3 crop body a 1 stop smaller (f3.5) and 2 stops on a 1.6 body. Is there much truth in that?

True, as applies to the depth of field for the same framing (the underlying reason is that with a crop sensor, you need to be further from the subject to get the same framing with a given focal length, and that increased distance means deeper DoF).  Exposure is not affected - f/2.8 gives the same amount of light per unit area, regardless of sensor.

[smirkypants]

1D4 gives superb IQ. It also has the ability the set min/max shutter speeds in AV mode and have (the equivalent to ) auto iso.

Picture taken today  with 400 f/2.8, 1/320th, iso100, f/2.8, ec +1/3

This is the kind of environment where 10fps is priceless

Nice shot Squibby. I can vouch for the 1DIV settings shooting today at the Copa Republica Argentina de Polo. Worked great. Why they can't put that in the 5D3 is beyond me. How many lines of code would that be?

[briansquibb]

1D4 gives superb IQ. It also has the ability the set min/max shutter speeds in AV mode and have (the equivalent to ) auto iso.

Picture taken today  with 400 f/2.8, 1/320th, iso100, f/2.8, ec +1/3

This is the kind of environment where 10fps is priceless

Nice shot Squibby. I can vouch for the 1DIV settings shooting today at the Copa Republica Argentina de Polo. Worked great. Why they can't put that in the 5D3 is beyond me. How many lines of code would that be?

I guess that it is one way to keep distance between the 1DX and 5DIII - after all only 1D4 users would have used it and they want those to move onto the 1DX.

The 1Ds3 has neither auto iso nor the ability to set the min shutter speed above 1/60th - in otherwords pretty useless.

[acoll123]

I have a 1dIV - until the 1DX comes out it is the best camera for sports and action. I just sold my 5DII yesterday and am waiting for my pre-ordered 5DIII. I know this isn't for everybody, but the combination of the two bodies is ideal for the work I do which is a combination of almost everything:
Landscape - was the 5DII will be the 5DIII
Sports (hockey, baseball, basketball, soccer, gynmastics ) - is the 1DIV - used the 5dII for after game celebrations and crowd candids - should be able to use the 5DIII (with battery grip) as more of a true second sports body with a 24-70.
Candids/family/walk-around/parties - as 5DII will be 5DIII - should be great without the battery grip to make it more portable and less obtrusive
Photo-journalism - for an online newspaper - has been either and will probably continue to be so.
Occasional studio/macro/product photography -was 5DII will be 5DIII.
I guess you could just get a 1DX for everything but then you would only have one body - I like a little redundancy . . . for about the same cost at this point in time.

[DJL329]

I'm having trouble deciding also. Currently I have a 7D and love it for its 8fps speed and advanced af system. I do miss the full frame from my old 5d mk1 though (i loved the depth of field etc), but felt I could never switch to a 5d mk2 as it was too slow.
So i was hoping waiting for a fast 5d mk3 to come out, except its not quite as fast as I was hoping for.

I shoot about 75% sports (mostly mountainbiking) and 25% everthing else (events, some weddings etc). Often when i photograph in either situation I am shooting in low light, I dont like to use a flash so I use a big aperture and bump up the iso.

So ideally I want something fast with the better af system and something that can shoot well in low light, + in all weather situations. I really wish the 5d mk3 was faster.

There is no way i can afford a 1dx

The thing about the 1d mk4 that worries me is its a crop sensor and how would image quality compare to that of the 5d mk3. The other thing that worries me is how much better in image quality is the 1d mk4 over the 7d?

Instead of replacing the 7D with either the 1DIV or the 5DIII, why not keep the 7D for when you need the reach and FPS, and get the 5DII for when you need FF and DOF?

[WillShootPhotos]

Someone at work told me that the multilpier on a crop body not only multiplies the focal length but also the apeture meaning a f2.8 lens on a 1.3 crop body a 1 stop smaller (f3.5) and 2 stops on a 1.6 body. Is there much truth in that?

No - zero truth in that... at least not in how much light is actually hitting the sensor... a 2.8 is a 2.8 on FF, 1.3x and 1.6x full stop... (all puns intended - LOL)

Here is the easiset way to think about it... The light from the lens is going to hit the sensor the same way - no matter what "size" (or crop factor) it is... The sensors are still the same distance from the rear element of the lens, so the amount of light hitting the sensor stays the same... (excluding EF-S from this discussion - they extend further back into the body of the camera, rendering them un-mountable due to larger mirror assemblies for FF and 1.3x bodies - the mirror would hit the innermost element of the lens).

The reason the image is "magnified" is more about the "perception" of the magnification and not any real magnification per se...

I think we've all seen those images of a picture shot a FF with a rectangle drawn in to show how much would be "cropped" out (thus - "crop factor"   ) for either a 1.3 or 1.6 body.  Essentially - you only see the 1.3 amount of the full image, on a 1D4 (or the 1.6 crop on a 7D) when you shoot with it, but you see that amount of the full size image filling the LCD or image file, etc.  So it appears to have been magnified - but really, we're just seeing a part of the larger - almost like we cropped the image to get it to "look" more zoomed in...

Of course - some of those bodies pack more pixels into that smaller physical area - so the resolution isn't lower than cropping a ff image off a 5D3 or 1DX...

Clear as mud?

- Will

[Vertvorb]

I have a opportunity to pick up a 2nd hand 1d mk4 for $1000nz less than what the 5d mk3 is going to cost us. Its proving to be a hard choice for me to make as the seller cant tell me how many shots its done, though he says low to mid. The camera has been used regulary for 15 months for a photography business. The camera body looks a little rough with sratches though the seller says they are only cosmetic. He also sad it gets cleaned once a month and last serviced in October.

With the 5d mk3 out any day now I guess I need to make a decission, I have sold my 7d already and there is no way I can afford a brandnew 1d mk4 and 2nd hand ones hardly ever come up for sale (though i have seen plent mk3's).

I am not sure which one to got for, the 5d doesnt look too terrible with 6fps and a burst rate of 18 raw, but the 1d is so much better than that. I feel I dont want to have purchsed one and then wish i had got the other.  The 1d looks pretty well used also and brandnew items are always nice to have.

I guess if the 5d had 8fps or faster I would choose that hands down, if this 2nd hand 1d mk4 looked like it hadnt been used so much I would choose that.